Throckmorton
Lifer
- Aug 23, 2007
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Throckmorton
Lifer
- Aug 23, 2007
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No. But if McCarthy can make ridiculous accusations and ridiculous statements and have people heralding him as a prophet, why can't I?
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
You can and you'll look stupid because of your tactics just like he did. (which is what I stated). But you probably would be correct if you looked at minivan owners and claimed communists as I'm sure there are some communists who drive minivans.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Originally posted by: Phokus
Cad admits he drives a minivan, man card revoked!
...but it has flames on it...
j/kI have 3 kids and a job that requires I travel with tools and equipment at times. It was either a minivan or a SUV - I picked the more economical one.
Modern opinions in support of McCarthy are excellent examples of rightwing revisionist swill. McCarthy had nothing, other than an audience willing to be held in paranoid thrall by his theatrics. It was the 50's equivalent of the Bush Admin's Terrarist! scare, poorly executed by a drunken grandstander and his lawyer, a self hating closet queen.
The infamous and ever changing list never existed. But public sentiment was ready to accept the idea that it did, given a very few highly sensationalized cases like the Rosenbergs. McCarthy's followers used that sentiment to ruin people who'd ever had any leftist leanings, particularly Hollywood figures. It was played out against a complex backdrop of the russian boogeyman, communist china, and growing communist sentiment in italy, greece, and the americas.
And claims that the govt slowed down recovery from the depression are equally revisionist, flying in the face of the real truth, a truth being overwritten now that those who lived the times are almost entirely passed on. The "Third Way" policies of the Roosevelt admin were the most productive of any employed at the time, even with their flaws. People who found work in the WPA and CCC camps did so under conditions equal to or better than those in the private sector. And those efforts wouldn't have been necessary if private enterprise had been doing what they claimed they couldn't. It took govt guarantees to actually create an atmosphere where investment would occur. In the debt deflation scenario of the time, capital gained value sitting idle- there was no point in taking any sort of investment risk at all.
Apparently, the Right needs to revise history to rehabilitate their own tainted past, and to distract the electorate from the modern day results of following their siren song...
The infamous and ever changing list never existed. But public sentiment was ready to accept the idea that it did, given a very few highly sensationalized cases like the Rosenbergs. McCarthy's followers used that sentiment to ruin people who'd ever had any leftist leanings, particularly Hollywood figures. It was played out against a complex backdrop of the russian boogeyman, communist china, and growing communist sentiment in italy, greece, and the americas.
And claims that the govt slowed down recovery from the depression are equally revisionist, flying in the face of the real truth, a truth being overwritten now that those who lived the times are almost entirely passed on. The "Third Way" policies of the Roosevelt admin were the most productive of any employed at the time, even with their flaws. People who found work in the WPA and CCC camps did so under conditions equal to or better than those in the private sector. And those efforts wouldn't have been necessary if private enterprise had been doing what they claimed they couldn't. It took govt guarantees to actually create an atmosphere where investment would occur. In the debt deflation scenario of the time, capital gained value sitting idle- there was no point in taking any sort of investment risk at all.
Apparently, the Right needs to revise history to rehabilitate their own tainted past, and to distract the electorate from the modern day results of following their siren song...
Modern American society function by chasing artificial needs and dreams created by advertisers playing of people's sense of emptiness caused in turn by self hate. We are a vacuum sucking up the world. Likes mites eating a cheese, our system will collapse from within. Communism, I think, saw this coming but could not understand that the root of the problem is not capitalism as such, but self hate, a disease they are no more free of than anybody else.
shira
Diamond Member
- Jan 12, 2005
- 9,500
- 6
- 81
The problem with McCarthyism isn't that he was necessarily completely wrong. Undoubtedly, America had (and has) communist sympathizers who were working against the interests of the U.S.
The problem with McCarthyism is that it shredded the Constitution: Guilt by the most distant association, loyalty review boards, gross violations of the 5th amendment, black-listing and thousands of careers ruined, the HUAC. Just as with the current war on terror, the violations of liberties were justified on the basis of fighting the "enemy."
Yes, there are real terrorists in the world that would like nothing better to inflict cataclysmic damage on the United States, but that doesn't justify the gross excesses of the Bush Administration in fighting that threat. And just because there were real communists working against the U.S. didn't justify McCarthyism.
Mccarthy was proven right...There were plenty of commies in US government. That doesn't excuse his behavior though.
Proof
and more proof
Proof
and more proof
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
- 20,736
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Yes. I am in the midst of re-reading the incredibly excellent 'Spycatcher' by Peter Wright, and it deals shockingly frankly with the MI5/MI6 dealings with Soviet spies. I have previously read 'KGB', by Oleg Gordievsky and Christopher Andrew. The USA and USSR each obviously and openly viewed each other as the 'Primary Adversary', and devoted spectacular resources in manpower, money, materiel, and time towards espionage, sabotage, assassinations, propaganda, and so forth towards to sole purpose of weakening the target.
So, in a word, yes, there were/are a large number of communists in the country, both before, during, and after the cold war, with the obvious peaks during the full support of the massive USSR's resources.
Now when you get to McCarthy, you find a vile, paranoid, egotistical buffoon, whose antics actually harmed the cause he espoused. The real issue was in getting the FBI/CIA/NSA/DIA the resources necessary to play their side of the chess game to an acceptably high level of quality. Politicians like Sen. McCarthy really had no business making a public spectacle of such highly sensitive matters, particularly when he was so wrong, so often. At the time when he was talking in numbers of hundreds, there were actually thousands of KGB/GRU-affiliated illegals and assets working within our borders.
As to the threats posed, he got that wrong as well. Being a communist wasn't a threat to US national security in any way. Being a communist who worked to supply coveted intelligence to foreign enemies on the other hand, that's a genuine threat. The cold war was a balancing act of intelligence, assets, diplomacy, allies, and vacillating third parties. It was crucial that neither side achieved dominance in any area, lest a 'first-strike' doctrine be deemed feasible to the leadership of either superpower.
It's a complex issue, but McCarthy was a class-A moron. He's the equivalent to our modern sub-100 IQ drooling chicken-hawks, rambling on about the dangers of Islam, when in fact you should worry more specifically about quantifiable and dedicated enemies, not a vague notion of an entire group.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
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Both you, CAD, and the OP seem to be making this same mistake. That there were Soviet spies in US govt does not prove McCarthy right, as that aspect of the Red Scare was never really in dispute. There had already been a number of high profile cases and HUAC was already in full swing prior to McCarthy's arrival on the scene.
What McCarthy did was say that he knew who these Soviet spies were ("I have a list!" -- when he didn't) and then proceeded to ruin the lives of thousands of innocent Americans with unsubstantiated allegations and witch hunts. In the end, he probably did more the help the Soviet's espionage efforts than anything else.
So please, how was he proven "right" except by some kind of twisted revisionist history that incorrectly portrays him as the lone voice of alarm against the commie threat?
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
No, that is not correct. I did not say his list was correct or anything like that. He was correct that there were commies in the gov't and around the US - which is what I stated. But yes(as I've already stated) his tactics weren't the best. However, just because you, I and others don't like the tactics he used does not mean he wasn't right.
Mainly this boils down to what you think, I think he was right about and you seem to want to embellish what I stated into something more than what was said.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
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Yeah there's a balance. If you look historically, I don't think you'll find anyone who denies that during the cold war, the communist/Soviet spy threat to the US was a genuine danger to national security, and that there was a real need to meet this real threat with real action.
McCarthy stands out because of his silly antics and incredibly counterproductive actions. It was an intelligence issue to be dealt with by intelligence experts, not a blowhard politician with specious morals and standards. Counterintel relies upon a number of factors, a prime one being : Never let your enemy see you as weak. Running around screaming about 'reds' and witch-hunting people who have nothing to do with Communism for the sake of political expedience is the opposite of appearing strong, resolute, and competent. The KGB/GRU scoffed at the sheer stupidity of McCarthy, and his divisive tactics wasted a huge amount of energy and money in the process.
So I don't know what the point of this whole thing is. It boils down to several truths.
(1)- The USSR maintained massive global networks of spies, illegals, assets, etc.
(2)- The USA, being the 'prime adversary', received the bulk of Soviet Intel/Counterintel resources.
(3)- During McCarthy's era, it was undoubtedly true that there were many levels of Soviet infiltration at varying levels of US business, social, and government groups.
(4)- McCarthy's witch hunts and public spectacle produced a hugely negative result, he should have left the spy game to the experts.
The problem, CSG, is that Smokin' Joe wasn't really right at all. His claim, and the basic claim of all the Commie Scare artists of the era, was that all "Leftists!" were Soviet stooges, working to sell us out to teh ebil empire in da Kremlin.
Sadly, as it turns out, the most successful stooges working to sell out america have been working to sell us out to international capitalism.
Sadly, as it turns out, the most successful stooges working to sell out america have been working to sell us out to international capitalism.
It depends on your definition of "right." Your definition seems to be that if one's claimed justification is sound, then regardless of their actions they are right. I disagree. McCarthy may have acted under the guise of protecting the country from communists, but whether or not that threat actually existed is irrelevant to judging what he did as an individual.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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My comment was not singularly directed towards you.
However, you are wrong about McCarthy. It's not just an issue of his tactics. Yes, they were deplorable and as un-American as what he claimed to be fighting against. But that's not the mistake being made here.
You're saying that McCarthy was correct that there were in commies in the US govt. Well, excuse me, but duh! Despite this modern revisionism perpetuated by Coulter and some others, everyone else already knew that. It wasn't news, he was anything but some kind of "lone voice." McCarthy was a late-comer to the post-WWII Red Scare. He didn't make his famous pronouncement in Wheeling about having a list until 1950. Prior to that, China had already fallen to Mao, the Soviets had already tested the bomb using our own plans, Alger Hiss had already been convicted of spying for the Soviets, HUAC and the Hollywood blacklist were already old headlines, and McCarthy had spent 3 years in the Senate doing nothing.
The ONLY thing new that he did was make the Red Scare a partisan issue (instead of the legitimate national security issue that it was). Which is why it's little surprise that it was he own party that led the move to censure him. He couldn't have done more to help the Soviets if he had tried.
shira
Diamond Member
- Jan 12, 2005
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I agree. Perhaps I should have written "people-who-were-working-against-the-interests-of-the-U.S-who-happened-to-be-communists" to make my intent clearer.
Most "communists" or "communists sympathizers" in the U.S. in the '40s and '50s were pro-American idealists - I had an uncle who was a member. What they thought of as "communism" had nothing to do with the system in place in the Soviet Union. And that, in essence, was the problem with McCarthyism: It grouped together all "communists" as pro-Soviet subversives. Freedom of association, freedom of belief, and freedom against self-incrimination were all thrown out the window: If they found out that you were a member of the party and/or attended communists gatherings, or if you refused to tell them what you believed (which they took a tacit admission that you were a subversive), you were blacklisted and/or ruled to be in contempt of Congress.
To me, McCarthy was much more un-American than most of the people he pursued, since he obviously had contempt for the U.S. Constitution.
shira
Diamond Member
- Jan 12, 2005
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You're dissembling again: The reason McCarthy is infamous is that he led the communist witch hunts that ruined thousands of lives. When the name "Joseph McCarthy" is mentioned, we immediately think of the gross abuses of civil liberties he justified in the name of fighting the communist threat.
So, when you state, "McCarthy was right," that means that WHAT HE STOOD FOR was right. Claiming that all you're saying is, "McCarthy's was right in his belief that there were communists in the U.S. who were actively working against the interests of the U.S." is absurd, because NO ONE - not even the most left-wing liberal - would have claimed otherwise. Why would you be telling us what we ALL already know?
To put this another way: To say "McCarthy was right" is a counterargument to those who say "McCarthy was wrong." Well, NO ONE says there were NOT anti-American communists infiltrating all levels of American in the '40s and '50s. So "McCarthy was wrong" means that what he stood for was wrong. And, "McCarthy was right" therefore means "What McCarthy did was right." In other words, you're defending his methods. And anyone who defends McCarthy's methods is dead wrong.
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