Was first night of Path to 9-11 fair?
- Thread starter ProfJohn
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- Jul 28, 2006
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I thought it was pretty fair. And I found most of it to be highly believable based on what we know about the way the Clinton administration operated.
I think they were 100% dead on with the ?buck stops down the hall? comment. I don?t think Bill Clinton ever stood up and took the blame for anything that went wrong under his administration. Look at the whole Hillary and ?vast right wing conspiracy? comment.
I think they were 100% dead on with the ?buck stops down the hall? comment. I don?t think Bill Clinton ever stood up and took the blame for anything that went wrong under his administration. Look at the whole Hillary and ?vast right wing conspiracy? comment.
- Jul 28, 2006
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Here is a web site that claims to have the unedited scenes of the movie.
http://traditionalvalues.org/clinton_abc.html
After watching the movie and one of these scenes you can see the difference, but the changes are very small.
Edit: it is certainly an anti-Clinton web site, but what they post looks to be the real thing.
If I could find the edits on DailyKos I would post the link here too, but some how I doubt I'll find anything that makes Clinton and company look bad there.
Big NOTE apparently they took out a scene of Clinton testifying about the whole Monica affair, but kept that little "I did not have sex" scene in there.
http://traditionalvalues.org/clinton_abc.html
After watching the movie and one of these scenes you can see the difference, but the changes are very small.
Edit: it is certainly an anti-Clinton web site, but what they post looks to be the real thing.
If I could find the edits on DailyKos I would post the link here too, but some how I doubt I'll find anything that makes Clinton and company look bad there.
Big NOTE apparently they took out a scene of Clinton testifying about the whole Monica affair, but kept that little "I did not have sex" scene in there.
GTaudiophile
Lifer
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umbrella39
Lifer
- Jun 11, 2004
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I thought it was a nice try at revising history by the rightwing echo chamber and all-too typical of the neocon playbook with a midterm election coming up...
but too little, too late. :laugh:
but too little, too late. :laugh:
- Jul 28, 2006
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umbrella, all the damning scenes in the movie were pretty factual, except the scene where they come close to getting Osama, that was the combination of a bunch of scenes.
The fact that some members of the Clinton admin were more worried about the criminal nature of events than putting a stop to future events was true. Osama openly laid out his ideas about killing Americans, but no one in the Clinton admin. would do anything until they could indict him.
As was the part about them tipping of Pakistan before the launch of the missiles, which most likely saved Osama's life.
- Jul 28, 2006
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Here is a great Clinton quote detailing how his admin dealt with terrorism as a law enforcment issue:
Bill Clinton, Delivered to the Long Island Association's Annual Luncheon
Crest Hollow Country Club, Woodbury, NY
Feb. 15, 2002
Listen for yourself.
http://www.newsmax.com/clinton2.mp3
Bill Clinton, Delivered to the Long Island Association's Annual Luncheon
Crest Hollow Country Club, Woodbury, NY
Feb. 15, 2002
Of course it makes perfect sense that this would be Clinton's point of view. Look at all the Democrats who are upset about us holding people at Gitmo without due process. If Clinton had gone and gotten Osama in 1996 what would they have done with him?
Listen for yourself.
http://www.newsmax.com/clinton2.mp3
- Jul 28, 2006
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How about that? Taking responsiblity for the largest story to happen in this country since 9-11.
Oh look another one.
Google "bush takes responsibility" and see what you get.
http://www.google.com/search?q=bush+tak...GGLG,GGLG:2006-33,GGLG:en&start=0&sa=N
Do the same for Clinton and you get: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&...LG%3Aen&q=clinton+takes+responsibility
About Monica
Other than that you really can't find Clinton taking responsibility for anything, and unlike Bush I don't see Clinton coming right out and saying "I take responsibility" without qualifying his comment.
Bush "I take responsibility"
Clinton "I take my responsibility for my part in all of this" notice the MY part.
Clinton didn't have anything like the failed Katrina response, 9/11, illegal spying, illegal torture, or illegal wars to take responsibility FOR! And taking responsibility for Katrina way after the fact while ALSO doing absolutely NOTHING to help them a year+ later is not taking actual responsibility... Anyone can SAY they take responsibilities... Actually DOING something is what counts. And at that, he fails at every turn.
- Jul 28, 2006
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You are grasping here shadow. dahunan asked me what has Bush ever took responsiblity for and I posted two examples. There may be more, but if you google it all you see is story after story about Katrina. So all I was doing was answering dahunan's challenge.
Now about Clinton, are you saying that not one thing went wrong during his 8 years that he could/should have taken responsiblity for?
How about Waco? Somalia? Bombing an asprin factory? Bombing the Chinese embassy? Passing up the chance to get Osama?
There were lots of things that went wrong under Clinton, as go wrong under any president, but the only time he seems to have taken responsibility for anything was the Monica mess HE created.
I didn't see it, but given the responses I've seen here from our resident righties, I'd have to say the chances that it's impartial and fair are relativly low. I'm not saying that Clinton couldn't have done more to fight terrorism during his time as President, I'm saying that I don't think any of us can engage in a reasonable analysis with the hindsight that we have at this point. Perhaps I simply don't remember it, but I don't think there was a very strong pro-terrorist fighting movement of ANY kind while Clinton was President, not even from the righties now crowing about his mistakes on that front.
One of the few comments President Bush has made that I agree with was about the value of "Monday morning quarterbacking"...in fact, the right has been quite viscious in attacking anyone who questions Bush's approach to Iraq, despite the fact that much of the criticism was leveled BEFORE the invasion. So unless the righties really DID know about 9/11 before it happened, I don't see how you guys can go after Clinton without looking like the biggest bunch of idiots in the world.
Edit: In other words, I think it IS fair to say that President Clinton's actions led, in part, to 9/11 and the current situation we find ourselves in...but I'm not sure how loudly the right should yell about it, I'd be dollars to donuts that, had Bob Dole (or whoever) been President during those 8 years, he would have done the exact same thing. 9/11 provided a wonderful event to really draw our focus to terrorism, and it provides some pretty good hindsight. Clinton didn't have that, and neither did any righties back then...everyone really should try and remember that.
One of the few comments President Bush has made that I agree with was about the value of "Monday morning quarterbacking"...in fact, the right has been quite viscious in attacking anyone who questions Bush's approach to Iraq, despite the fact that much of the criticism was leveled BEFORE the invasion. So unless the righties really DID know about 9/11 before it happened, I don't see how you guys can go after Clinton without looking like the biggest bunch of idiots in the world.
Edit: In other words, I think it IS fair to say that President Clinton's actions led, in part, to 9/11 and the current situation we find ourselves in...but I'm not sure how loudly the right should yell about it, I'd be dollars to donuts that, had Bob Dole (or whoever) been President during those 8 years, he would have done the exact same thing. 9/11 provided a wonderful event to really draw our focus to terrorism, and it provides some pretty good hindsight. Clinton didn't have that, and neither did any righties back then...everyone really should try and remember that.
- Jul 28, 2006
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I think you are 100% right on what would have happened with Dole or someone else as President.
I do think the movie though does a fair job of showing events as they really happened.
Anyone who watches the movie and says that it is unfair and baised is lying to themselves.
Tomorrow night lets see the reaction by the lefties when all the blame gets shifted to Bush.
Jaskalas
Lifer
- Jun 23, 2004
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I watched it, it?s not new information.
As for the attempts to kill Osama before 9/11 which were never authorized, ABC spent some 30 minutes after the movie to debunk any concept that those had a possibility of success. "Osama had 2 tanks and machine gun nests, whaa whaa whaa". That really made me ill, but such is them trying to deflect the heat they?re getting over daring to mention it.
As for the attempts to kill Osama before 9/11 which were never authorized, ABC spent some 30 minutes after the movie to debunk any concept that those had a possibility of success. "Osama had 2 tanks and machine gun nests, whaa whaa whaa". That really made me ill, but such is them trying to deflect the heat they?re getting over daring to mention it.
I think he had to treat it as a legal issue. You couldn't get a more hostile Congress than Clinton had. What do you think would have happened if he didn't treat it as a legally binding issue? That's also why he wanted the Saudis so badly. They could have done whatever they wanted with OBL. Sadly, the hyper-partisanship screwed everyone over.
You need to remember, the GOP in Congress was consistently obstructing anything Clinton did (expanding wiretapping anyone?).
That isn't grasping. Taking responsibility is more than saying " I take responsibility." It actually means you have to DO something about it. And those things under Clinton were nothing compared to the things I mentioned.
Those aren't facts.
The Clinton administration is the ONLY administration that made any attempt to rub out Osama before 9/11. That is a fact.
Bush spent a lot more time on vacation than he did worrying about getting Osama, pre 9/11. The Bush administration put absolutely no emphasis on fighting terrorism, and they were very lackadaisical in getting to the issue, they basically were just getting around to it when 9/11 happened.
Another fact is, in 5 years since 9/11 we haven't been able to rub out Osama, even though after 9/11 it is a lot more clear how important it is to do so.
And your comment linking notifying Pakistan with Osama is completely opinion, not factual.
For what it's worth, I'm not sure we lefties have any more cause to go around berating Bush for 9/11 than the righties have to go around blaming Clinton. As I said, hindsight really is 20/20 here, and while things may seem "obvious" looking back from 9/11, I imagine it looked a lot different at the time. The August 2001 memo about Bin Laden being determined to strike in the US is NOT, IMHO, a smoking gun, and comparisons to Clinton "stopping" the Millenium plot ignore the fact that the plot was stopped mostly due to luck and very good police work on the part of one customs inspector.
In other words, this excercise of looking back at what led to 9/11 is interesting from a technical standpoint, and very valuable to avoid a similar attack in the future, but it should NOT be a case of the blame game for either side.
What would we have done with him in 1996 if the Sudanese had turned him over to us ? And it's just speculation that the Sudanese would have released him to us anyway.
And it isn't "Democrats" who believe in due process, it's Americans. Inlcuding lots of Republicans.
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