Was asking someone why they are voting for Bush..

[smashp]

United Sstates and South Africa are the only Industrialized countries without a national healthcare System and rank at the lowest in health.

aaahhh those evil canadians, who live longer than us americans on the average of 3.6 years and pay no co-pay or deductable.

But the Real shame is there are no big executives or Drug salesman raping money out of the system and raising care rates claiming the Woman who had both Breast removed and was told afterword that "good news, There was no breast cancer" and then sues are the ones ruining the system.


The Number of Malpractice, and many are frivolous , are just a sign that are system is failing.


we pay twice wat the canadians do per person and are getting a worse product. All in the name of Money.

 

[Cobalt]

I was talking to my ex-girlfriend, who I still speak with quite often, and I asked her why she supported Bush. Her exact response was, "They are both assholes but I guess I support the one who likes God in public."

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: cobalt
I was talking to my ex-girlfriend, who I still speak with quite often, and I asked her why she supported Bush. Her exact response was, "They are both assholes but I guess I support the one who likes God in public."

My girlfriend "Kerry is cool he snowboards." her friend "Bush is hot. Kerry is ugly".

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Aimster
My girlfriend "Kerry is cool he snowboards." her friend "Bush is hot. Kerry is ugly".

Originally posted by: cobalt
I was talking to my ex-girlfriend, who I still speak with quite often, and I asked her why she supported Bush. Her exact response was, "They are both assholes but I guess I support the one who likes God in public."

Maybe giving women the right to vote wasn't such a good idea afterall.














I kid! I kid! But those are some seriously retarded reasons to vote for some one. Makes the people who just toe the party line seem like geniuses in comparison.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
In Canada we pay half as much per capita as Americans, yet everyone has coverage. So what if we have to wait a little? It's an inconvenience, but at least we get the treatment we require. Ideology is stopping America from adopting a similar system. If only your politicians relied on logic.

Out of curiousity, how much does heath insurance cost for an average family of 4?

And about those Canadian capital gains taxes? How about the real estate taxes? How about that VAT and Ontario Provencial sales taxes - 15%. Average income tax was reported to me by my associates as 45%. Cheap health care must really be nice! I lived on Rideau River and the annual tax for the house was $24,000.00 Canadian. My landlord was paying 75% on capital gains. He took mortgages on real estate from Royal Bank for 80% of the value and let them lapse. It was better than paying the tax on the earnings. My neighbor on one side owned Beaver Lumber (and lots more) and on the other side was Hans Bleeker. I rented the "cottage" between them.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: SickBeast
In Canada we pay half as much per capita as Americans, yet everyone has coverage. So what if we have to wait a little? It's an inconvenience, but at least we get the treatment we require. Ideology is stopping America from adopting a similar system. If only your politicians relied on logic.

Out of curiousity, how much does heath insurance cost for an average family of 4?

I heard Canada's health insurance sucks. You have to wait months to go see a doctor and the doctors there are not as qualified. Is this true?

I don't know for a family of 4, but for me a good health insurance would cost me around $120/month. If I was to get in a serious accident, 20% insurance pays and 80% I would have to pay.

What's the point in even having insurance if you have to foot 80% of the bill anyways?

Doctors here are every bit as qualified as those in the US; many of our doctors move to the US to practice there. The same goes for engineers and architects.

You don't have to wait months to see a doctor here. Read my other post.

$120/month is $2,400/year, and that doesn't include your deductible or anything that is not covered by the policy. I would be interested to know how much the average American spends on health-related expenses per year. Then it would be interesting to compare that figure to the tax delta between Canada and the US.

I can only tell you my experience. I pay something like $135.00 per month. That has increased recently. We get to deduct health costs from our income tax if we get over 10%. I have never been able to make the deduction. Health costs have increased here and perhaps nationalization is the answer, but I didn't like Canada's system either and my Canadian friends travel to the States when they require major procedures. I waited in the emergancy for three hours one night in Ottawa. That was my experience.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
In other words you would be earning $8,000 more per year if the government covered your health insurance. Would your taxes be $8,000 higher if they implemented a good national healthcare program?

Here is the problem. You can have private companies give health insurance or you can have the government. If private, then insurance companies will profit. If government, then you won't have profit, you'll just have waste as a bigger and bigger bureaucracy is built up around healthcare. Which is more efficient is up for debate, though the net effects are likely similar. So, to distinguish, we fall back on good old capitalism, which assumes that competition due to privatization results in lower rates and better services. Based on existing government healthcare programs that we have here, I have to say that adding more care on top of this would be a disaster. Many docs are already having to refuse Medicare/Medicaid patients because the government just doesn't pay them for these patients or, if they do eventually get paid, they don't get paid as much as if the patient weren't on the gov't cheese.

Like oil, healthcare needs to become competitive for prices to be reasonable. These two things float around outside of typical market forces. I might support government capping prices on certain practices, as the complete lack of pricing regulation has driven costs through the roof with no end in sight. I'm well aware of the expenses involved with healthcare provisions. I'm also aware that the government doesn't need to pay $2500 for a ten minute machine test that regurgitates exactly what a doctor could have told you for free, but the government will pay for this test every time, while a private insurer likely would not. Governmentalizing everying results in gross waste. Is waste preferrable to profit?

Thus, I conclude that the solution is reform of the current system, not implementing another dysfunctional government cow that will be milked by leeches for all eternity until it dies.

 

[IamElectro]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: SickBeast
In other words you would be earning $8,000 more per year if the government covered your health insurance. Would your taxes be $8,000 higher if they implemented a good national healthcare program?

Here is the problem. You can have private companies give health insurance or you can have the government. If private, then insurance companies will profit. If government, then you won't have profit, you'll just have waste as a bigger and bigger bureaucracy is built up around healthcare. Which is more efficient is up for debate, though the net effects are likely similar. So, to distinguish, we fall back on good old capitalism, which assumes that competition due to privatization results in lower rates and better services. Based on existing government healthcare programs that we have here, I have to say that adding more care on top of this would be a disaster. Many docs are already having to refuse Medicare/Medicaid patients because the government just doesn't pay them for these patients or, if they do eventually get paid, they don't get paid as much as if the patient weren't on the gov't cheese.

Like oil, healthcare needs to become competitive for prices to be reasonable. These two things float around outside of typical market forces. I might support government capping prices on certain practices, as the complete lack of pricing regulation has driven costs through the roof with no end in sight. I'm well aware of the expenses involved with healthcare provisions. I'm also aware that the government doesn't need to pay $2500 for a ten minute machine test that regurgitates exactly what a doctor could have told you for free, but the government will pay for this test every time, while a private insurer likely would not. Governmentalizing everying results in gross waste. Is waste preferrable to profit?

Thus, I conclude that the solution is reform of the current system, not implementing another dysfunctional government cow that will be milked by leeches for all eternity until it dies.

I could not agree with you more.

People complain now about thier HMO's/ insurances and how they deny services.
I can see a governemt run system you have to fill out forms in triplicate and deal with a case worker for 2 weeks to get emergency service.

One thing I have wondered is if Kerry were elected how does he propose to get his health care idea to pass through congress. The Senate he could probably get, but the house is mostly republicans and he is going to have lots of problems there.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Condor
And about those Canadian capital gains taxes? How about the real estate taxes? How about that VAT and Ontario Provencial sales taxes - 15%. Average income tax was reported to me by my associates as 45%. Cheap health care must really be nice! I lived on Rideau River and the annual tax for the house was $24,000.00 Canadian. My landlord was paying 75% on capital gains. He took mortgages on real estate from Royal Bank for 80% of the value and let them lapse. It was better than paying the tax on the earnings. My neighbor on one side owned Beaver Lumber (and lots more) and on the other side was Hans Bleeker. I rented the "cottage" between them.

The annual property taxes on my condo in downtown Toronto are only $1,100CDN; I don't see how you could possibly have paid $24,000 on a house in Ottawa unless it was 25,000 sq.ft. or something outrageous.

Yes, we pay much more in taxes here than the average American does, but it's not just healthcare that we benefit from. We get:

-toll free highways
-university education at a fraction of the cost
-cheap day care for children; free in some places
-better social systems like employment insurance and welfare, and thus a lower overall crime rate (although I can't say for sure that the two are related)

It would be interesting to make a side-by-side comparison between an American earning $40,000US and a Canadian making $55,000CDN. After all bills including taxes and medical stuff, I'd be interested to see who would have more money left over.

The US system is definately more efficient overall, hence you guys have a higher GDP per capita, higher wages, and far fewer people on welfare. That said, I can't complain one bit about my quality of life here, and the taxes really aren't that unbearable. I would not support the abolishment of our heathcare system as I view it to be superior to the American system. I would, however, support reforming it to model it after the French system. It needs to be two-tier. Someone who's on welfare has all the time in the world to wait three hours in the emergency room; for most others it's a huge hassle.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: IamElectro
People complain now about thier HMO's/ insurances and how they deny services.
I can see a governemt run system you have to fill out forms in triplicate and deal with a case worker for 2 weeks to get emergency service.

That's not true whatsoever. Everyone gets a plastic health card; the hospital swipes it and admits you w/o question. There are no forms to fill out. Our beaurocracy is much smaller than that in the US.

Our overhead is much lower cause there is only one person who pays the bills, gov't, EI Toronto hospital accounting staff of 4 , Boston hospital accounting staff of 50. Since the gov'ts are also the sole purchaser of drugs and supply there is a lot of overhead savings there, which could be even further improved.

 

[desy]

Canadian Health care is more efficent, not a bloated cow the US already has the bloated cow.
Condors numbers are totally wack
It is marginally more expensive to live in Canada, the reason being economies of scale, our economy or system does not suck, its the fact we live in a more extreme climate, A and we have a much larger infastructure coast to coast with a lot less bodies to cost average out services B.

The way it is. . .

For the lazy!

"The fact is, Canadians are NOT moving south because of high taxation rates. Canadians are moving south because Canadian corporations are cheap, complacent and stodgy, run by narrow-minded, inflexible old men who prefer to blame the government rather face up to their own responsibilities, change their stale old attitudes, and do the work necessary to stay competive. If the BCNI and the Canadian corporations it represents are serious about wanting to keep Canadian talent in Canada, they can start by offering salaries that are competitive with those of their competitors south of the border. Then they can think about getting off their complacent rear ends and re-inventing their companies so that they are challenging, flexible and attractive to young workers. Let's see how that works before we start talking about taxes."