Warrantless Spying Skyrockets Under Obama

[bfdd]

http://reason.com/archives/2012/10/03/warrantless-spying-skyrockets-under-obam

Is it fascism yet?

That was the snarky question glued to the bumper of every self-respecting progressive’s gas/electric hybrid back during the Bush-Cheney administration. It now must be asked again.

Back then, liberals were raising the alarm about impending fascism because of post-9/11 policies such as warrantless wiretapping, wars of choice, military commissions, indefinite detention and so on.

Warrantless surveillance, for instance, drew intense scrutiny and saturation media coverage from the time it was discovered until approximately 12:05 p.m. EST January 20, 2009. Interest then dropped off markedly. After all, Barack Obama had promised “no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens.” So, problem solved.
Except it wasn’t. In fact, it got worse.

First the Obama administration defended warrantless wiretapping on state-secrets grounds. Now the ACLU has released a trove of Justice Department records showing – in the ACLU’s words – a “huge increase in warrantless electronic surveillance” from 2009 to 2011. The documents show an explosion in the use of “pen register” and “trap and trace” surveillance. Those forms of spying record information such as who is calling (or emailing) whom and for how long, but not the content of the conversation.

Since content isn’t recorded, the legal bar is set lower, and the surveillance might be technically legal. That shouldn’t get anyone off the hook: The Bush administration claimed waterboarding was technically legal, too. Now the ACLU says “more people were subjected to [warrantless] pen register and trap and trace surveillance in the past two years than in the entire previous decade.” Email surveillance, the civil-liberties group says, is “increasing exponentially.”

And it's not going to get any fucking better if we keep electing ANYONE representing either major party. Read my words again, "representing either major party" these people do not represent us, they represent their "special interests". Of course some of you will come in here and "but Bush but Bush" like that some how clears the air because well it's been done before. Motherfuckers get away with rape and murder on a daily basis, should we all just now give a slide to those who rape and murder?

A vote for Obamney this election is a vote against America. Vote with some courage and vote for someone who doesn't rep a glorified street gang.


edit- my bad I forgot to post the link to the whole article! sorry about that ;(!

 

[-Slacker-]

Not that I'm going to bother to verify it, or anything, but do you have a source for that fragment?

 

[Fern]

If this is true, when might we expect to see it in the MSM?

Edit: I googled it and only saw unfamiliar/obscure sources.

Fern

 

[Schmide]

Obligatory search reveals

fourthamendment.com
reason.com
reliableanswers.com

All sites that play loose with the facts and never back up sources. Famous for passing on fake chain mail lies.

Nothing to see here folks.

 

[bfdd]

Obligatory search reveals

fourthamendment.com
reason.com
reliableanswers.com

All sites that play loose with the facts and never back up sources. Famous for passing on fake chain mail lies.

Nothing to see here folks.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...bama_n_1924508.html?utm_hp_ref=elections-2012 do links to huffpo count? it came out even earlier than the Reason article.

which btw includes a link to the ACLU data http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-s...stice-department-documents-show-huge-increase

btw to the two of you that tried to use your "google-fu" you need to brush up a bit more. took me one search to find the huffpo article and aclu link.

 

[drebo]

Except that any use of warrantless wiretapping is a broken promise under Obama, so whether it increased or decreased is irrelevant.

He already never closed Gitmo and has escalated both wars in the Middle East, as well as started one in Lybia. These items alone should be enough evidence that Obama should not be trusted.

Note: I don't trust any other mainstream politician to do any of that either.

 

[Bowfinger]

http://reason.com/archives/2012/10/03/warrantless-spying-skyrockets-under-obam


And it's not going to get any fucking better if we keep electing ANYONE representing either major party. Read my words again, "representing either major party" these people do not represent us, they represent their "special interests". Of course some of you will come in here and "but Bush but Bush" like that some how clears the air because well it's been done before. Motherfuckers get away with rape and murder on a daily basis, should we all just now give a slide to those who rape and murder?

A vote for Obamney this election is a vote against America. Vote with some courage and vote for someone who doesn't rep a glorified street gang.


edit- my bad I forgot to post the link to the whole article! sorry about that ;(!

I take issue with the assertion there was "saturation media coverage". As I remember it, stories in the MSM were brief, infrequent, and generally below the fold. There were a few sites that devoted extensive coverage to the issue, but as usual the MSM was dutifully compliant in serving the interests of the status quo.

That said, I absolutely agree this is outrageous behavior, a clear violation of Americans' civil liberties. It's pathetic that the right hasn't focused their outrage against Obama on substantive issues like this instead of their usual asinine tripe ... but then again, they're just as guilty as the Dems (as you point out). IMO, our government is out of control, we are on our way to fascism, and Obama is no better than Romney on this issue. It's one of the biggest reasons I'm hesitant to vote for Obama. While I won't be voting for Romney, I may well vote third party again.


Edit: For the record, I agree the Reason article is highly sensationalized.

 

[mchammer187]

Very disappointed in the President for this but the counter is unless you are voting for Ron Paul possibly Gary Johnson I am 99% certain every other Republican Presidential Candidate is in favor of the Patriot act and these types of provisions.

If Romney actively campaigned against this than that is one thing he would have a leg up on President Obama on this issue.

 

[woolfe9999]

If this is true, when might we expect to see it in the MSM?

Edit: I googled it and only saw unfamiliar/obscure sources.

Fern

You might want to look at the biased source article, and then ask yourself the question of whether, even taking it at face value, it supports his sensationalistic subject line: "Warrantless Spying Skyrockets Under Obama."

For example, the article points out that the MSM hasn't covered this even though it broke the story about warrantless wiretapping under Bush. However, the issue here is the viewing of "pen registers," which tell the government author/recipient/date of an e-mail but there is no examination of the actual content unless a warrant is obtained. Under Bush, the NSA was examining the content of these communications (specifically, between U.S. citizens and foreigners.)

I also enjoy the part where the author claims an equivalency between examining these pen registers and the Bush admin's torturing of people at Guantanimo. The comparison is made for the purpose of showing that the Bush admin claimed the torture was "technically legal," which it wasn't, and besides, "technically legal" is redundant. The examination of these pen registers is legal, plain and simple.

http://reason.com/archives/2012/10/03/warrantless-spying-skyrockets-under-obam

 

[bfdd]

If you don't like the reason article, I posted a HuffPo article and a link directly to the ACLU release/blog post. You can attack the messenger all you want, fact remains the current admin has ramped up the snooping on Americans over the last administration. Giving either a pass is bullshit, attacking the messenger is bullshit, but whatevs.

 

[Darwin333]

I take issue with the assertion there was "saturation media coverage". As I remember it, stories in the MSM were brief, infrequent, and generally below the fold. There were a few sites that devoted extensive coverage to the issue, but as usual the MSM was dutifully compliant in serving the interests of the status quo.

That said, I absolutely agree this is outrageous behavior, a clear violation of Americans' civil liberties. It's pathetic that the right hasn't focused their outrage against Obama on substantive issues like this instead of their usual asinine tripe ... but then again, they're just as guilty as the Dems (as you point out). IMO, our government is out of control, we are on our way to fascism, and Obama is no better than Romney on this issue. It's one of the biggest reasons I'm hesitant to vote for Obama. While I won't be voting for Romney, I may well vote third party again.


Edit: For the record, I agree the Reason article is highly sensationalized.

Personally I am writing in Beelzebub. I say fuck voting for the "lesser evil", if I am going to vote for evil I am going to vote for the best damned evil I can.

 

[woolfe9999]

If you don't like the reason article, I posted a HuffPo article and a link directly to the ACLU release/blog post. You can attack the messenger all you want, fact remains the current admin has ramped up the snooping on Americans over the last administration. Giving either a pass is bullshit, attacking the messenger is bullshit, but whatevs.

I criticized the Reason article not because it's Reason Magazine, but on specific grounds of its content. I find the issue itself to be important. I don't think drawing equivalencies between examining pen registers and torturing people is very useful in understanding the issue.

I also think your subject line is off. The Huffpo piece, for example, is talking about the government getting "court orders" for information. That means it isn't warrantless by definition. It's not that we shouldn't be concerned. We should. We should also get the facts straight.

 

[shortylickens]

Its so he can give us freedom and equality. Dont question him.

 

[bfdd]

Personally I am writing in Beelzebub. I say fuck voting for the "lesser evil", if I am going to vote for evil I am going to vote for the best damned evil I can.

lol

I criticized the Reason article not because it's Reason Magazine, but on specific grounds of its content. I find the issue itself to be important. I don't think drawing equivalencies between examining pen registers and torturing people is very useful in understanding the issue.

I also think your subject line is off. The Huffpo piece, for example, is talking about the government getting "court orders" for information. That means it isn't warrantless by definition. It's not that we shouldn't be concerned. We should. We should also get the facts straight.

a court order isn't a warrant, but a warrant is a type of court order. So things could still have court orders and be warrantless. You shouldn't confuse the two to try and make your point. PS the ACLU release that they go off has "warrantless" in the title. If you wish to take issue, take issue with those who did the study.

I do agree drawing a comparison to torturing is a little over board, but I fail to see how it takes away from the article at all.

 

[Jaskalas]

A vote for Obamney this election is a vote against America. Vote with some courage and vote for someone who doesn't rep a glorified street gang.

Yes, vote third party for a change. Do not give fascists your thunderous applause.

 

[Juror No. 8]

Yes, vote third party for a change. Do not give fascists your thunderous applause.

But just remember, if you do vote for a "third party", make sure that they aren't just controlled opposition being funded by the other two parties.

Third parties may as well be nothing more than "pressure valve" parties designed to safely siphon away disenchanted voters.

 

[Schmide]

Well thanks for linking us up. I read the aclu article and the thing that really hits me is - We know there were taps from 2003-2008 yet there are zero internet taps, a maybe 1000 orders on the graphs? I call shenanigans! The only difference in these reports is the recent numbers are on the books.

If these are the real numbers, I can deal with 30k a year. I was expecting much much more.

 

[bfdd]

But just remember, if you do vote for a "third party", make sure that they aren't just controlled opposition being funded by the other two parties.

Third parties may as well be nothing more than "pressure valve" parties designed to safely siphon away disenchanted voters.

Doesn't matter, get everyone to vote for one of those assholes then. What are they going to do? Completely flip their positions and go inline with the mainstream? That would only expose the scam and lead to even worse outrage.

 

[Jaskalas]

But just remember, if you do vote for a "third party", make sure that they aren't just controlled opposition being funded by the other two parties.

Third parties may as well be nothing more than "pressure valve" parties designed to safely siphon away disenchanted voters.

If you're trying to scare me over to Mittens, you should have tried the supreme court line. Your post appears to suggest that the Democrats might be happy with Libertarians in control of government... I assure you, they're happier with Mitt.

Perhaps the GOP is the "pressure valve" party, sharing their permanent incumbency with the Dems.

 

[Juror No. 8]

Doesn't matter, get everyone to vote for one of those assholes then. What are they going to do? Completely flip their positions and go inline with the mainstream? That would only expose the scam and lead to even worse outrage.

American outrage lasts about as long as it takes for a Hot Pocket to be heated up in a microwave and Monday Night Football to come on the television set.

Bread and circuses for the win, man!

 

[Juror No. 8]

If you're trying to scare me over to Mittens, you should have tried the supreme court line. Your post appears to suggest that the Democrats might be happy with Libertarians in control of government... I assure you, they're happier with Mitt.

Perhaps the GOP is the "pressure valve" party, sharing their permanent incumbency with the Dems.

I'm not trying to scare you, I'm just sharing my views.

If the two major parties can so easily be captured, bought off, and controlled like hand puppets, what makes you think competing third, fourth, and fifth parties are immune to the same corrupting influences?

It only makes sense for the ruling elites to fund "pressure valve" parties. For starters, it provides the illusion of increased political choice, and secondly, they can more easily steer the outcome of elections by strategically supporting a third party with money and favorable media coverage.

For instance, let's imagine that the ruling elites want Obama to have a second term to push a more Left-oriented set of policies on the American people, but people are so fed up with him they are planning to vote for "anyone but Obama". In that case, they could fund and give favorable media coverage to a fake liberty-oriented candidate, which will split the Republican vote and catapult Obama to the desired victory. Mission accomplished.

Then, four years later, they will want a Republican in office to push a Right-oriented set of policies on the American people. To ensure that the Republican candidate wins, they'll throw green-oriented party at the American people as a viable third choice, and that will split the Democratic vote.

It's like herding sheep. You just have to know what buttons to push.

 

[woolfe9999]

lol

a court order isn't a warrant, but a warrant is a type of court order. So things could still have court orders and be warrantless. You shouldn't confuse the two to try and make your point. PS the ACLU release that they go off has "warrantless" in the title. If you wish to take issue, take issue with those who did the study.

I do agree drawing a comparison to torturing is a little over board, but I fail to see how it takes away from the article at all.

If a court order is required, it doesn't matter if it's called a warrant or not. Still, you're making somewhat fair point. The ACLU release does mention that the standard for obtaining a trap and trace order is lower than it is for getting a wiretap warrant. It isn't quite the same as something that requires no process beforehand, which is what we typically think of when we hear the word "warrantless."

I think the ACLU is correct to conclude that there is a privacy interest at stake even though the content is not being examined, though I do not think the two are absolutely equivalent.

 

[DCal430]

All politicians lie, it is how they get elected. Don't be fooled into thinking the candidate you are voting for hasn't told you a lie here and there to get your vote.

 

[ericlp]

Ever since 9/11 we gave away all our rights. So... If the FBI/CIA or HomeLand Security or whatever government agency wants to run whatever the rights we gave up what ya gonna do?

Am I disgusted ? Certainly. But, every one freely just handed it over when 9/11 happened and well.... once you open up Pandora's box you'r never gonna get those rights back. Unless everyone comes together and votes to restore them others wise apple/google the biggest cell phone OS's are going to enjoy taking advantage of the rights you gave away.

While voting 3'rd party is a good thing... I doubt you'll see much change unless that 3'rd party person is running hard for the change of restoring our rights. Other wise... Good Luck!

 

[Nemesis 1]

http://reason.com/archives/2012/10/03/warrantless-spying-skyrockets-under-obam


And it's not going to get any fucking better if we keep electing ANYONE representing either major party. Read my words again, "representing either major party" these people do not represent us, they represent their "special interests". Of course some of you will come in here and "but Bush but Bush" like that some how clears the air because well it's been done before. Motherfuckers get away with rape and murder on a daily basis, should we all just now give a slide to those who rape and murder?

A vote for Obamney this election is a vote against America. Vote with some courage and vote for someone who doesn't rep a glorified street gang.


edit- my bad I forgot to post the link to the whole article! sorry about that ;(!

Hay man relax I know your upset. Settle down your going to find alot of things out in short order . You have to maintain control, WAIT FOR IT Its the only way you can stay standing