Warez

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
I can't believe how many people voted for "yes". If one of you guys just purchased a car and someone stole it would you vote "yes" in a "is it OK to steal cars rather than buying them" poll?

Of course it is not right...but is it also right to charge $60.00 per game in some cases? How about $200.00 for an OS?

The developer owns the software so they have every right to charge whatever they want for it. You don't have a say in the matter (other than indirectly by not buying the software), nor do you have the right to download an illegal version.

Not to say I think it's ok to pirate software, but would everyone just fscking give up the "is it ok to steal a car cause you can't afford it?" comparison??? :|

That's one of the stupidest comparisons I've ever heard in my life, yet it get's brought up again and again, I think Im gonna have a heartattack if I see it again :frown:

 

[Chaotic42]

I believe in "Try it before you buy it".

I did it with Doom, I did it with Quake 2. I did it with Master of Orion 2 as well.

Same with music.

 

[CTho9305]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
I can't believe how many people voted for "yes". If one of you guys just purchased a car and someone stole it would you vote "yes" in a "is it OK to steal cars rather than buying them" poll?

there is a difference. if you steal a car, or a physical game CD, what you stole has cost someone else money. when you get an ISO from kazaa, no costs were incurred (excluding resuorces on online multiplayer servers).

 

[gwlam12]

i am wondering....all the years that a developer works on software, where does their salary come from? shouldnt that be the reason for high prices on software?

 

[BFG10K]

That's one of the stupidest comparisons I've ever heard in my life

Why is it invalid? Both are the attempted justification of theft on the grounds that the item in question is too expensive. Time is a cost too, just like money.

there is a difference. if you steal a car, or a physical game CD, what you stole has cost someone else money.

So what you're saying is that people who don't make physical objects shouldn't get paid for their work? That software developers shouldn't get paid because it doesn't "cost" them anything?

when you get an ISO from kazaa, no costs were incurred (excluding resuorces on online multiplayer servers

Uh, what about the development costs of the software? Or do you think that developing software is free and doesn't require any resources?

If everyone downloaded warez and nobody purchased software what do you think would be the current state of the software industry? It would be dead, that's where it would be.

 

[CTho9305]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

there is a difference. if you steal a car, or a physical game CD, what you stole has cost someone else money.

So what you're saying is that people who don't make physical objects shouldn't get paid for their work? That software developers shouldn't get paid because it doesn't "cost" them anything?

ABSOLUTELY NOT. I buy my games, and I (eventually) bought my OS. If you steal my car to take it for a test drive for a week, I can't use it for that week. If you steal it from a dealership for a week, they can't demo it to others/sell it. If you download an ISO from kazaa, you didn't prevent the manufacturer from selling anything to other people (they may have lost the sale to you, but this hypothetical youis a semi-honest person and will either eventually buy the game or stop playing it. net result? they either got the sale, or you don't end up buying crappy software).

I will never buy 3d studio max unless I for some reason end up being a graphics professional. I didn't buy CDs before MP3s were available. Is it bad of me to not pay $3000 for something that is simply a toy for my purposes? Is it bad of me to just listen to the radio instead of paying for my music? Will it be wrong when I continue to play the UT2k3 demo instead of buying the full version until the full version is at most $20? Am I stealing from Comedy Central when I switch to a different channel while ads are on? I personally do not think so. If pirating was not an option, I simply would not use certain programs.

If you use a professional tool for fun, I don't think it is wrong not to pay a professional price. If you try something and then either buy it or stop using it, I also do not consider that ethically wrong.

Looney - please add a "I want to see the results" choice. I don't think it is right not to buy a game if you intend to play it, but if you are "trying" it, I don't necessarily think it is wrong.

 

[Rayden]

i don't see how anyone can view copying a copyrighted program as legal.
by using a program you did not pay for you are stealing. (cept for programs you got as a gift, but someone else paid for it. and i don't mean your friend paid for it and then copied it for you)

sure you argue that mr bob isnt going to buy a program, so he isn't taking away any sales by using the game. but he is still using that game illegally.

and who are you to decide how much a company charges for their software?!?!?! the argument that the company charges too much therefore you are justified in stealing has no credibility.

you guys also argue that you use software like 3ds max for fun, and it wouldn't be worth it to you to pay $3000 for the software. then don't pay $3000 and don't use the software. if you don't want to pay for something, then you don't deserve to use it.

demoes are another story. those are given out.
tv channels and commercials are different. you don't sign a contract saying you will watch the commercials when you watch a channel. you sign a contract everytime you install copyrighted software that says you will not distribute it.

there are absolutes people. one of those absolutes is that it is wrong to steal. doesn't matter if you steal 1 penny or a million dollars. it is still wrong. the situation doesn't change that.

 

[Sunner]

BFG, if I steal your car, I've taken something from you, preventing you from using it.
If I download a copy of Windows I've copied something without paying for it, which is still wrong, but not the same thing by a long shot.

 

[grunjee]

I think the poll title should be eidted... it's hard for me to make sense of it either... maybe I'm just dense though...

Anyway, my thoughts are this... no one can argue that warez is wrong, it's illegal. 99.9% of the software I use I have paid for (paid for the license, whatever) whether it's games, OS's, and all my apps. I will admit to "beta testing" a couple titles here and there. I do feel bad when I do it but again, I believe in the "try it before you buy it" philosophy. This belief has stemmed from buying music cd's where I couldn't preview them, or buying software titles where no demo was available -- paying for a product, and then being utterly disgusted with it... and being stuck with it.

Back when Napster was alive, one day I decided to download a few songs from an artist I wasn't too familiar with. D/L'd about 6 songs, listened to them and loved them. I liked em so much I felt obligated to buy their cd... and I wanted to... so I did. Was d/l'ing the music wrong? Yes. Was it stealing?... yes. But hey, I ended up buying their cd. So I don't know, you make the call.

Warez is a subject that interests me though. I am almost 25... I go to LAN parties sometimes with my little brother who is 17. So there are kids there who range in age from 14-17. Most of these kids don't have jobs... so they obviously can't pay for many of the games they have... so they're all pretty much playing off burned copies.

I'd venture to guess most of America is this way too, at least with this age segment.

What do you do about it?... I'm posing a serious question. I don't know the answer to it. Everyone wants to play the cool new games. Not everyone can afford them. Warez is still illegal but I don't know what you can do about it.

 

[Need4Speed]

Originally posted by: Sunner
BFG, if I steal your car, I've taken something from you, preventing you from using it.
If I download a copy of Windows I've copied something without paying for it, which is still wrong, but not the same thing by a long shot.

I think what you are trying to say, and I agree with it as well, is that warez is a victimless crime. Where as stealing a car is not.

 

[Superwormy]

Bad poll choice, it all depends on what game, your situation, why you're doing it, etc. etc. etc.

Depends on sooooo much.

 

[Rayden]

there is no victim when you steal software? no direct victim you mean. every copy of software that is stolen that is one copy that the developers aren't getting paid for.

you could say the same thing about stealing cars from a dealer. there isn't anyone who can't drive it because you stole it. but it still affects ppl


and as far as kids who can't pay for games, computer games are one of the cheapest hobbies there is. like i said before, if you don't want to or can't pay for something, you don't deserve to use it.

the question depends on nothing. there is never a situation where stealing software for your entertainment is right of justified.

 

[ElDonAntonio]

Rayden, I don't agree with your "if you can't afford a pro software, then don't use it, even if it's just for fun". In fact, I'm pretty sure the companies producing the pro software are VERY happy that there's pirating of their program going on in the lower spheres. Popularity of the program increases, brand recognition is higher, and the kids playing around with 3ds max will end up using it if/when they become professionals, generating revenue.
I'm not encouraging warez, I'm myself a student in computer engineering and I've even already worked at Discreet (great place btw). But I think that you still have to consider the question reasonably. Of course, you could tell me "ok, so where does it become wrong to use a pro software, at 1k$, 500$, 300$, etc, and you'd be right. For me it's rather a personal choice, and if you're honest you should buy every software title you use that you can afford. (always talking about personal use here of course).

 

[Rayden]

yes, companies that produce professional software like people playing with it so that when they go work they are already familiar with their product. that is why they have student discounts which are much cheaper than retail.

i would also like to point out that Maya has a personal learning edition that is free. it has an annoying watermark in the work area and when you render, but better than nothing.

and what does affording software have to do with it being right? i can afford a Neon therefore i will buy it. I can't afford a Ferrari, therefore i am justified in stealing it. fooey!

and perhaps you are right, i bet Discreet benefits from kids using hacked copies of their software. but that doesn't make it right.

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: Need4Speed

Originally posted by: Sunner
BFG, if I steal your car, I've taken something from you, preventing you from using it.
If I download a copy of Windows I've copied something without paying for it, which is still wrong, but not the same thing by a long shot.

I think what you are trying to say, and I agree with it as well, is that warez is a victimless crime. Where as stealing a car is not.

I see your and CTho's point. And I agree that stealing a car is not necessarily a fair analogy to stealing software...

However, to call copying a program "victimless"... Well, I couldn't disagree more. You are using a product that a company invested a lot of resources in to create, without any compensation to the company or the people that work there. Without even getting into the distribution channel, there's already a lot of victims in that scenario.


As for my thoughts on the initial question...

I used to think that using warez was cool, and I didn't mind one bit. But since I started working at Intel, I now see the incredible amount of effort that goes into creating those products. And I truly believe that those people need to be compensated.

 

[krackato]

Staying on topic, we're talking about Warez'ing games. For god's sake, it's a game! Nobody needs to play a game, therefore if you can't afford the $60 price tag (and let's be honest, it usually drops to $30 and even $20 after only a few months as witnessed by Warcraft III), well then you can't afford the game. Either go make more money, save up for the game, or (heaven forbid!) live without playing the game. There are worse fates in life.

 

[alkemyst]

This debate has been going on since the 80's.

In studies it was found pirated OS and office suites actually increased sales as the pirates insist on having the products they use at home in the office.

For games it's hard to say, but I would imagine the same.....the people who are using copied software are the ones driving the sales....so little peter asks mommy and daddy for UT2003 and they buy it.

 

[Rayden]

that still doesn't justify stealing.

a company's profit is for the company to worry about. what kind of messed up logic must you be using to say that i am helping the company by stealing their software?!

im not trying to insult your intelligence alkemyst, but some ppl are just so stupid when they try to justify doing illegal things.

 

[spwango]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

but is it also right to charge $60.00 per game in some cases? How about $200.00 for an OS?

Just because you think they charge too much doesn't mean you HAVE to buy it.

Top notch point...it's all about capitalism, baby. In fact, one could make the argument that prices are high because of warez...

 

[mechBgon]

Personally, I value my integrity. If I say yes to an EULA so I can proceed with a software installation, I've given my word. And my word's worth a lot to me, certainly a lot more than $60, or $200, or even $1500 (mmm, Lightwave 7!). So I never reach the rationalization stage that I see in the preceding posts, where I would try to excuse my stealing because of some plausible reason (oh, they make plenty of money already, it doesn't really matter... and besides, this is overpriced anyway... and everyone else does it...).

 

[Rayden]

exactly. your word is worth more than any software.

 

[kt]

Originally posted by: Rayden
that still doesn't justify stealing.

a company's profit is for the company to worry about. what kind of messed up logic must you be using to say that i am helping the company by stealing their software?!

im not trying to insult your intelligence alkemyst, but some ppl are just so stupid when they try to justify doing illegal things.

You're the exactly the type I would describe as "holier than thou attitude" kind of person. Let's take another look at this scenerio.

I "steal" a software and use it on my computer.

Situation one:
I like it so much that I insist that my company should buy it for me to use. Ok, now I have the software and uninstall the version I "stole" and install the legit copy on my computer.

Situation two:
Found the software I "stole" is a piece of crap and immediately discard it.

Now, just take your finger out of your ass for a moment and think of the bigger picture. Do you really want to buy a software that you can't return? It's like buying a lemon car and the person selling you the car skipped town. And before you come down on how much warez I have on my computer, I will tell you the answer is LOTS. Do I have any warez installed? NONE. All applications and software I use are FULLY licensed and legit.

Oh and btw, I voted No on the poll because it doesn't exactly express the exact message I would agree to.

 

[MrBond]

I know you can *never* be caught

Actually you can. Sierra had some thing they snuck in Black and White that could tell if you used a crack/known pirated key, then uploaded your ip to Sierra. They would then contact your ISP about it. I don't know whatever happened with that though.

The "try the demo instead of pirating the game" arguement is usually valid. However, take my computer and the BF1942 Demo. The Single player version ran just fine. The multiplayer version would crash to the desktop with no error both before and after the patch. I'd have definatly bought the game if the demo worked. The full game might work for all I know. But if it doesn't, I'm stuck with a game that I'm lucky if I can resell for $30. I know someone with a pirate copy of the game, I could get it from him and see, but it seems like a lot of work for something as trivial as a game.

CDKeys are a good way to prevent piracy. Tribes 2 had an even better system (think battle.net style registration), but I doubt we'll ever see a system like that again on a FPS. Sure Keygens get lucky sometimes, but I imagine its rare enough to keep people buying the games. Still, that only really works on multiplayer games, single player games are another story

 

[Rayden]

i can see how buying a game, then being unable to play it, without the oppurtunity to return it can be immensely frustrating, but that still doesn't justify stealing. and using any word less harsh than stealing is lying to yourself.

the holier than thou' issue:
i believe it is wrong to steal.
you believe it is ok to steal because it is conveniant for you.

if you think that i think i am better than you because i have values that is your problem.


as far as your friend owning bf1942, and you wondering if it will work on your computer. borrow the game from your friend and see! i see nothing wrong with lending a game. this doesn't include lending, but playing it with a burned copy while your friend is borrowing it. and you should uninstall it when you are done borrowing it.

and perhaps i am missing something, but how can you have lots of on your computer but none installed?

 

[Nothinman]

ctually you can. Sierra had some thing they snuck in Black and White that could tell if you used a crack/known pirated key, then uploaded your ip to Sierra. They would then contact your ISP about it. I don't know whatever happened with that though.

Most likely the no-cd crack also disabled the calling home.

and perhaps i am missing something, but how can you have lots of on your computer but none installed?

Generally warez, since it's distributed over the Internet, is packaged in RAR or ZIP archives to make the downloads easier. He probably means he has a collection of those packages that havn't been extracted and installed yet.