warez vs. mp3

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sinunbeso

Senior member
Nov 16, 2001
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<<

<< Eventually you will learn that everybody is a hypocrite. >>



Truer words have never been spoken.

The answer is that they are both stealing, no matter how you want to justify it. Granted I have a little of both, but I make no excuses.

It's sort of like speeding. Everybody does it and you only get a fine, so it isn't really that bad. Is it???
I believe that, for most people, perception is nine tenths of the law.
>>



We are selfish humans.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
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Here's one for you -

Say I go to the local pawn shop, grab a music cd for $3 that I should have paid $10 for at BB or at CDNOW, and then make MP3's of it, and then trade that $3 CD in for another used CD, pay another $2 to a second CD and make MP3's off of that one as well.

Where does the legality come into play?

I paid for the CD, but not a damn dime went to the RIAA or the Artist.

Chew on that.
 

mithrandir2001

Diamond Member
May 1, 2001
6,545
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<< But, in a sense they are the same. It is stealing what someone else is marketing and developing. The same way a car designer builds a car, software manufacturer and artsists build their product. It's different as far as being tangible but both are properties of other people. >>


Perhaps, but I don't want to get old and gray before what I want becomes a reality. If I trod on laws until then, I don't feel like a criminal. MP3 is a just a half-baked substitute, anyway. You don't have the original packaging, you don't get that satisfaction of opening the jewel case and placing a stamped (rather than burned) CD into your player's tray and you don't get the same, original 16-bit 44.1KHz quality. With broadband connections on the rise, MP3 is a great way to sample, explore and learn. I consider it a promotional tool, except that the RIAA has no control over it. It's also a way to acquire music that is OOP or available only on import.

The music industry has a big challenge because so many of us don't consider ourselves scofflaws. For instance, my mother needed two songs for a nursery school lesson and she felt it was poor use of school funds to purchase two CDs for one lesson. So I downloaded the two tracks, burned the CD-R and gave it to her. She used it once for the lesson and that was that. I hear the legal beagles saying "if you can't afford to buy the discs, then don't teach that lesson." But that just sounds too goody-goody. The law has various interpretations and I don't believe in living to the letter. Sometimes civil strife brings progress that is otherwise too slow or too seemingly insignificant to occur on its own.


<< However, your point of since I have so much I'm not going to enjoy it as much is not very valid. If you aren't going to enjoy it as much, then it's you the consumer that shouldn't buy it. Back to the abusrd, but that is like a Jag collector saying he shouldn't have to pay for his 45th Jag because someone without a Jag would enjoy it so much more so he should pay for it. But, as you mentioned its intangible vs. tangible. >>


One thing the Jag collector cannot defend against in any argument for stealing is that his Jags are worth quite a bit on resale, so even if he bought that 45th without being able to enjoy it, it still has significant value, perhaps appreciating value. But I can't sell my downloaded MP3s. They have no wholesale monetary value. I paid nothing for them and I can't get anything for them. They simply exist. I guess everything can be assessed some value, but the point is that a lossy copy is not nearly as valuable as the genuine article.

My biggest complaint is definitely the fixed cost of music. In an ideal market, I would pay only the marginal worth of each additional disc. But CD #5001 will cost the same as CD #1, #46 and #357. Downloading music is appealing because the cost is much less (OK, so it's free) and more in touch with its marginal worth to me. If I could download albums 600-1000 for $5 each and 1000-2000 for $4 each and 2000-3000 for $3 each, etc., I'd do it because it doesn't make sense to otherwise pay full retail on each additional album. The legal beagle argument is, again, "if you can't afford to buy the discs, then don't buy or listen to them." Well, tough noogies. The world's imperfect. I love music, I want as much of it as I have the time to enjoy, but I'm not going to suffer with a smaller collection by virtue of an inefficent price structure. Bending the law to fit my devices? Maybe, but the industry gives me no other choice. They need to satisfy my needs as a consumer or I will fill my own, as I have.


<< Do any of you all buy a FEW cd's for those few artists you would like to support? >>


Yes, because again, a MP3 is just a short-term substitute. I want the original disc for the quality and the packaging, but only if the material justifies the fixed cost. Many times it does because $12 isn't extravagant. But there is MUCH mediocre material out there that's worth a bit less to me.

"So if a DVD is only worth $2 to you, is that all you should pay?"

A DVD is physical product. It has higher variable costs. There is a clear minimum price floor that the producer must exceed.

"OK, so if a music download is only worth 5 cents to you, is that all you should pay?"

Depends! A music download has a tiny variable cost, so a sale is a sale. If I paid 5 cents for every download I've made, it's 5 cents more than the industry has now on a product which cost them nothing marginally for me to have.

I'm not being a radical. I've read in various business publications that fixed pricing policies are possibly on the way out as technology allows dynamic pricing. If getting a sale means pricing a product equivalent to what each individual customer is willing to pay (meaning different prices for different consumers), then as long as that sale generates a profit, it's a good deal for both parties.


<< No, that's illegal as well. Possession of any recorded, copyrighted material that you did not purchase is against the law. Mixing a bunch of illegal items together doesn't make it legal. >>


Rigid. And it's pretty irrelevant. A old friend of mine has a mailing list where he puts together a mix disc every so often and mails it out to a bunch of people, all at his expense. It's enjoyable because it's a personal gift, a reflection of his tastes and whims. But should he have to buy and mail out the 15 original CDs that the songs came from to each recipient just to keep it legal? Pfft. Hey, if this is the WORST thing you do in your life, you are doing OK.
 

mithrandir2001

Diamond Member
May 1, 2001
6,545
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<< Say I go to the local pawn shop, grab a music cd for $3 that I should have paid $10 for at BB or at CDNOW, and then make MP3's of it, and then trade that $3 CD in for another used CD, pay another $2 to a second CD and make MP3's off of that one as well.

Where does the legality come into play?

I paid for the CD, but not a damn dime went to the RIAA or the Artist.

Chew on that.
>>


Ah, used CDs. Used CDs don't necessarily rob the RIAA of the artist of money because the disc seller receives money back on the sale that can be used to buy more albums. If I couldn't sell my CDs (and I've sold back plenty) I wouldn't have had money to buy more new ones. Used CDs free up money and create an EFFICIENT marketplace (e.g. Hootie's debut goes for 75 cents, Pink Floyd's The Wall goes for $25). Imagine if you could never resell a car. Would you pick an expense model or a budget model? You'd likely pick the budget model because it entails less risk.

How 'bout borrowing a CD from your local library and burning a copy before you return it? I seen people use this as a vehicle for developing a sizable CD-R collection.
 

stonecold3169

Platinum Member
Jan 30, 2001
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Actually, in response to the used cd topic, once you return/trade in that cd, it's no longer legal to own those MP3 files anymore. See, this is a misconception that we've built up because it is so common. The reason that you see people shunning software piracy more then music is because of the differences in prices. Also, software piracy is still relatively unknown, and the less people hear of it, the less that shows up... the media has a way of dragging people into places where they don't belong. Hell, half the people that were on napster and now on other proggies got there start because they heard of "this napster thingie" on the news.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
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Ok, forget the used cd thing for a second.

Say I go out to BB and get one of their cd specials for $7.99. I then make Mp3's off of that cd and get rid of it. For all the RIAA and the artist cares I have purchased that CD and they have gotten their royalties. They don't make a damn dime off of what happens after that point. I take my money made off of the purchase and buy another new cd.

 

Smbu

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2000
2,403
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I'm not sure about music cd's, but I know that for video games once the product is sold then the maker/publisher/etc. don't make anymore money from it. So when you trade it in and the store(e.g. EB) sells it used only EB gets money from that used game sale when they sell it to somebody else.
 

stonecold3169

Platinum Member
Jan 30, 2001
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I'm not disputing that the publisher/industry doesn;t get any more money from it... what I AM saying is that be it software or music, if you don't own the original you can't have the backup... the cause of this is because if you as an individual own something, you can't be using both at the same time, so why SHOULDN'T you have a backup... once you've sold it, you sold with it the rights and licenses involved.
 

ttn1

Senior member
Oct 24, 2000
680
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OK people, justify all you want. It's still stealing.

Ripping a CD and selling it to someone else, is just as bad as ripping a copy of some software and selling it to someone else.

I'm not saying that I dont' do it, but just admit that it IS stealing.

Just because something costs alot doesn't make stealing right. I can't afford a Porche...

Just because you don't get to use it to your satisfaction doesn't make it not stealing.

And as for using piracy to get things for use in a classroom setting.. What an example we set.

Edit: Just because an item is valueless, means you can steal it??? I have known may people with this justification. I called them cleptomaniacs. They stole small things from stores, because "they cost so little".
 

mithrandir2001

Diamond Member
May 1, 2001
6,545
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<< OK people, justify all you want. It's still stealing. >>


Then there are different degrees of theft. MP3 "theft" is pretty low on the severity scale.


<< Just because something costs alot doesn't make stealing right. I can't afford a Porche...
Edit: Just because an item is valueless, means you can steal it??? I have known may people with this justification. I called them cleptomaniacs. They stole small things from stores, because "they cost so little".
>>


Why can't people understand this isn't the same? Theft of physical product is never acceptable! But MP3s ARE a different animal. There is no marginal cost on duplication. If I disribute a MP3 to every single person with PC, it costs the RIAA nothing. The industry may get hit on the revenue side short-term, but NOT on the cost side (profit = revenue - cost).

Also, music "licenses" are permanent, both in letter AND in spirit. VERY important. I don't condone the piracy of video games because they are by their very nature "perishable" products. What's the worth of Atari's Pong, released in the late 70s? Zilch. What's the worth of Pink Floyd's The Wall, also released in the late 70s? About $30 new. Big difference. Piracy of software hurts because the product has such a short lifespan. But music has much longer lasting marketability. All those MP3s on peeps' hard drives may translate into sales later on. But if you hack a PS1 or DC game, it's likely you'll never buy it. Music is an art of long-term appreciation. A game is something you play and then finish and rarely return to.

You can have an MP3 if you also have the original CD, right? Well, what happens if I have an MP3 now, and in a few years buy the album? Because music "licenses" are permanent, the legality of my MP3 ownership is thereby grandfathered. I may have delayed my payment for the music, but I did not steal physical product from the industry during the interim, nor incur it any cost.

If you say it is not in my authority to dictate when payment should be made, well, then, we disagree. Compromises must be made in a world of infinite wants and finite resources and I feel it is a compromise I can live with in good conscience.


<< And as for using piracy to get things for use in a classroom setting.. What an example we set. >>


We teach children to be logical, rational and able to make sound economic judgements. Children borrow books from the library and a single title may be read by 100 children, yet the publisher gets paid only once. Is this wrong? Is the publisher hurt?
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
62
91
hehe, well.. i can afford most of the software i use, i buy a decent amount of the music i have, and i have the ability to rent movies :D its not a legal or moral thing for me.... thats just how i do it
 

BDawg

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
11,631
2
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<< We teach children to be logical, rational and able to make sound economic judgements. Children borrow books from the library and a single title may be read by 100 children, yet the publisher gets paid only once. Is this wrong? Is the publisher hurt? >>



A: Publishers aren't suing libraries.

B: The kids aren't copying the books to make their own personal copies and then distributing the copies to friends.
 

LethalWolfe

Diamond Member
Apr 14, 2001
3,679
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<< We teach children to be logical, rational and able to make sound economic judgements. Children borrow books from the library and a single title may be read by 100 children, yet the publisher gets paid only once. Is this wrong? Is the publisher hurt? >>



The fee the library pays for the book is much higher than the "cover price" the book has at the local book store. Just like movie rentals. Video store X might pay ~$100 per tape (not the $19.95 cover price) for the newest video release from studio Y.


Here's my 2 cents. I have pirated software and songs on my computer. Is it stealing? IMO, yes. Do I condone it? No. Am I going to try and justify my stealing like some moron? No. Why do I do it if I think it's wrong? 1. Because I don't have the money (unemployment blows) 2. Knowing how to use proggie X loox good on my resume. When I get a job, and have the money I'm going to buy legit copies of the software and music I have on my machine.


Lethal
 

PliotronX

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 1999
8,883
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I wonder when Greenfirs is going to show up and argue that pirating software is not thievery, but it is copyright infringement :D
 

LethalWolfe

Diamond Member
Apr 14, 2001
3,679
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<< I wonder when Greenfirs is going to show up and argue that pirating software is not thievery, but it is copyright infringement :D >>



I think he fell off the face of ATOT. I haven't seen a post from him/her/it for a while. And I was wondering the same thing ;)


Lethal
 

What I want to know is, why do people care when other people pirate music and software?
 

ThisIsMatt

Banned
Aug 4, 2000
11,820
1
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<< I don't even consider either to be stealing. While I have not taken the time to define my actual thoughts as to why it isn't stealing to pirate software or mp3s, I do not feel even the slightest remourse after I have done so. With anything else I would feel guilty. But I have no qualms in electing not to pay for every version of Office or Windows when Microsoft has over $1000 of my money before I was even 18. When I see a fair price, I'll buy the software. When I see an option to make a donation for how much I consider software to be worth, I'll be the first to pay what I deem fair. >>

Obviously you don't need the software, so you can't justify it.

<< And mp3s... how is it stealing if I can hear them on the Radio? or if buying the actual mp3 is not even offered in that format... >>

I can test drive a Porsche 911 twin turbo, but I can't have it. I can steal a 911 twin turbo and paint it rainbow colors and since it's not offered initially in those colors, well hell, then it's not stealing.

<< Why should I pay $600 for Adobe Photoshop when I only use it once or twice a year - the same amount Joe Photoshop Dude pays when he uses it 8 hours a day? >>

Why should I pay for my McLaren F1 when I only drive it once a week. Joe McLaren drives his every day, but we pay the same price.
 

bbqweed

Platinum Member
Mar 22, 2000
2,908
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Reason for this is that MP3s, technically is a new format. People have been copying software for a very long time. And I believe that software falls under property (both of the company and programmer) and thus is protected by laws more strictly. With music, its harder to "copyright" the music because artists are constantly sampling other music that they pay a licencing amount for.

So by stealing Puff Daddy's music (Missing you), you are taking from the "Police" too. So who gets paid for any lawsuits? That's why it's harder to protect music.

Laws have loop-holes, and people usually find ways around it. Software however, is protected with a stronger eye...Whether it is wrong or not...you be the judge. I personally think software is way to expensive as it is....

 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
62
91
actually.. movie rental places dont really pay 100 bucks per flick... just so u know
 

stonecold3169

Platinum Member
Jan 30, 2001
2,060
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You're 100% right that rental places don't usually pay the extra cost... but the point is that they are SUPPOSED to. You can actually go to amazon and check out rental edition DVD prices, they usually hoover around $100