Pliablemoose
Lifer
- Oct 11, 1999
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Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
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bamacre
Lifer
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Originally posted by: conjur
You are both missing the point!Originally posted by: MidasKnight
Second thatOriginally posted by: KK
The US and Iraqi forces need to finally deal with Fallujah and the insurgents that infest that city.
This attack was delayed for *weeks*! It was delayed until after the election. This is playing politics with our soldiers' lives!
This attack was mentioned in the news BEFORE the elections. In fact the war started three damn years ago, and it's been good and been hell. And Kerry still lost, get over it, conjur.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: conjur
You are both missing the point!Originally posted by: MidasKnight
Second thatOriginally posted by: KK
The US and Iraqi forces need to finally deal with Fallujah and the insurgents that infest that city.
This attack was delayed for *weeks*! It was delayed until after the election. This is playing politics with our soldiers' lives!
This attack was mentioned in the news BEFORE the elections.
Attacks have been mentioned in papers since this war began. This was a possibility reported that didn't HAPPEN until immediately after the election. If Bush had launched an attack against NK and Iran, you could also say it was reported in the papers since they are known to be unpopular.
Yeah nothing like a little bit of US fascism to get your blood going. The War on Terror, it's a Dirty Job - Bush/Cheney2004
Dead miniterrorists from Fallujah*. Thank God the US did not cave in to these guys. Peace through superior firepower, aw dude.
* P.S. Warning. Open only if you want to see graphic pictures of death and carnage.
Nice comeback. don't try to confuse conjur with facts, he ignores those.
I say we take it by force. We've been evacuating the city for weeks/months, all that's left are insurgents. Perhaps after tearing it down brick by brick we can persuade the Iranians that it's not such a hot vacation spot afterall.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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In Pliablemoose's defense, I don't think he was completely serious. He isn't a whack job neocon. Yeah, he supported Bush but *I THINK* it was because he couldn't support Kerry.
Pliablemoose can always come back and disprove this opinion
So your saying that the timing on a major ground attack wasn't effect by Bush delaying it so that it wouldn't look bad for the election?
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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"US ground troops have encircled Fallujah since mid-October, and Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi issued an ultimatum to the city on Sunday to surrender insurgents holed-up inside or face an all-out military assault."
How many times has this happened?
What attack? There has been NO attack! That's what I'm talking about! The ground assault has been delayed until after the election.Originally posted by: bamacre
This attack was mentioned in the news BEFORE the elections. In fact the war started three damn years ago, and it's been good and been hell. And Kerry still lost, get over it, conjur.Originally posted by: conjur
You are both missing the point!Originally posted by: MidasKnight
Second thatOriginally posted by: KK
The US and Iraqi forces need to finally deal with Fallujah and the insurgents that infest that city.
This attack was delayed for *weeks*! It was delayed until after the election. This is playing politics with our soldiers' lives!
And, this has nothing to do with Kerry so get over yourself.
Allawi made the order after numerous threats and attempts to negotiate.. what else do you expect them to do?
sit around and wait a little bit more?
sit around and wait a little bit more?
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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The timing is the issue. I do not believe you are ignorant of that in politics. This waited for a non-military reason. It could have been done before. What many of us against Bush believed is that he would be afraid to do anything of note and would command (that's the word) Allawi to wait until after the US election to take action.
If it's complete coincidence, it's a damned good one.
well you could be right.. who knows though...
allawi has been talking about sending an attack on fallujah for quite some time now..
Pliablemoose
Lifer
- Oct 11, 1999
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Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
In Pliablemoose's defense, I don't think he was completely serious. He isn't a whack job neocon. Yeah, he supported Bush but *I THINK* it was because he couldn't support Kerry.
Pliablemoose can always come back and disprove this opinion
Yep, I have a pretty sarcastic sense of humor. I do like the "Republicans for Sharpton" t-shirts though.
War is bad, and by it's nature a horrible horrible mess. Conversely, we are at war, and I see no choice but to finish it. I do not want to keep the images of the Fall of Baghdad cataloged in my brain next to those of the Fall of Saigon. Cutting & running isn't an option for me.
I'm actually quite liberal in my opinions, but voted for GWB. I'm really really hoping the Democratic party will see the light & move more centrist, rather than allowing the Republicans to set the agenda, and play to rules set by someone else.
I see an opportunity in the recent elections for reformation of the Democratic party.
Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
In Pliablemoose's defense, I don't think he was completely serious. He isn't a whack job neocon. Yeah, he supported Bush but *I THINK* it was because he couldn't support Kerry.
Pliablemoose can always come back and disprove this opinion
Yep, I have a pretty sarcastic sense of humor. I do like the "Republicans for Sharpton" t-shirts though.
War is bad, and by it's nature a horrible horrible mess. Conversely, we are at war, and I see no choice but to finish it. I do not want to keep the images of the Fall of Baghdad cataloged in my brain next to those of the Fall of Saigon. Cutting & running isn't an option for me.
I'm actually quite liberal in my opinions, but voted for GWB. I'm really really hoping the Democratic party will see the light & move more centrist, rather than allowing the Republicans to set the agenda, and play to rules set by someone else.
I see an opportunity in the recent elections for reformation of the Democratic party.
I've seen this variations of this statement made over and over again. "The Dems are too far left" Define centrist please. Define what is right in US politics. What is left.
The US has steadily been moving further and further right for the last three or four decades. I have a very different view of what the US problem is. There is no effective left wing at all in US politics to provide the balance necessary to the US system. The democratic party has moved so far to the right that their "liberal" ideas are losing their meaning. The liberal party of today is the republican party of yesteryear. The liberal party of today has moved so far to the right that it no longer is very liberal at all and has become a bleak shadow of the republican party. Why should voters vote republican lite when they can vote republican for real? For example both parties embrace essentially the same foreign policy, a policy that dictates that the US can and should, courtesy of it's unmatched military power, reserve the right to attack other nations if it suits US interests. This policy is "might makes right". This policy is fascism, and I use the word very deliberately.
If both the republican and the democratic parties are in essence fascistic, then any difference in domestic policy is essentially window dressing. The fact that the democratic party supported the Iraq war practically without dissent in Congress to me is the real reason they lost the last election. Not because the war was wrong but because the democratic party does not offer a real alternative to the republican party. Voters realized that for all his talk Kerry's choices as CinC would have been limited (both regarding Iraq and the WoT). As for the economy the US economy is simply too powerful. The problems with the economy at this point are largely academic which makes them invisible to the majority of Americans. Unfortunately by the time reality comes home to roost it will most likely be too late to fix the problems. These factors, in my view, made it easy for many people to vote their religion and explains why the "gay" marriage "issue" and "moral values" "issues" could have such an impact on the election (notwithstanding the fact that they are imo red herrings promoted to distract voters from the real issues). I do not doubt that they are real and important issues to many people but it is incredible to me that people can vote exclusively on these issues and ignore the larger macropolitical ones. I am also frightened by the fact that the ignorance of macropolitics by the majority of the US electorate makes them wide open to political manipulation. The US electorate has demonstrated that it knows very little of US foreign policy. It does not understand how the US economy works in relation to the rest of the world. And it does not hesitate to use US military might to get what it wants regardless of the moral or the legal issues with war. All the US president has to do is to parade the latest bogeyman in front of the US people and Off To War The US Goes.
In this sence the US does not know itself (too many Americans do not truly understand the power of the US, mistaking military power and economic domination for greatness). Neither does the US know it's enemies, at least not if they believe President Bush's claim that the terrorists hate "our freedoms". Too many Americans can not even find Iraq on the map. I wonder how many of them voted for Bush? This election has stamped "Fascism Approved" on the United States of America. Today I am truly sad.
(Sorry for the sermon)
Pliablemoose
Lifer
- Oct 11, 1999
- 25,195
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Of course you won't. It was mostly a rhetorical question. I can understand why you Bush supporters refuse to go there. I asked AndrewR basically the same question once and he did not answer either.
And?!?!?!?
It was pretty well documented it was going to happen sooner rather than later.
So what you are saying is they should have went into the city while the citizens were still there guns ablazing?
Which way do you want it?
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