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WaPo: How Canada and four other countries regained AAA ratings

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
I think it'd be good to get stories like this circulated in the American press, with the goal of getting the public clamoring for fiscal discipline.

Washington Post - ‘Maple Leaf Miracle’: How Canada and four other countries regained AAA ratings

What’s the secret to success? Turns out, we might be able to learn a thing or two from Canada, which regained an AAA rating just about a decade ago and is one of the best-studied cases of a countrywide, financial turnaround.

A quick Canadian history lesson: in the early 1990s, things were looking pretty grim. The country had regularly run fiscal deficits since the 1960s. In 1993, stood out among the G-7 as having the most foreign indebtedness. As one analyst noted, “From the beginning of 1990 to the end of 1993, Canada experienced a long slide in economy activity and employment.” The country lost its AAA rating in 1993. Feel familiar?

Facing an unprecedented fiscal crisis, Canada got down to work. The country passed a landmark budget in 1995. The plan tilted heavily towards cutting expenditures but also included some new revenue (the ratio was about $7 in cuts for every $1 of revenue). Canada cut the civil service by about 25 percent and overhauled its pension program. The plan worked. Canada is now on much more financially-sound footing; S&P restored its AAA rating in 2002. The turnaround is now referred to, in some economic literature, as “The Maple Leaf Miracle.”

“Canada is a good example of a country that put a fiscal turnaround in place after a shocking downgrade,” e-mails Anne Vorce, an marcoeconomist who has done extensive research on country’s fiscal comebacks. “It took a while but they came back.”

Four other countries - Australia, Denmark, Finland and Sweden - have also succeeded at regaining AAA ratings, all using different approaches that Vorce detailed in a 2010 paper. Denmark’s fiscal improvement was rooted in revenue from higher taxes, largely on households and businesses. Sweden adopted “dramatic” pension reforms. Finland made across-the-board cuts to social benefits and reduced capital spending.

Each country took its own path towards financial stability. They did, however, have one key thing on common: regaining a top credit rating required big, structural changes - no tinkering around the edges. All included some combination of spending cuts and revenue raisers, although tended to lean more heavily on the former.

“In dealing with short term debt, they made structural changes to their long term debt situations,” says Marc Goldwein, policy director of the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget. “Even though they did a little to deal with the immediate, it was also long term. The markets are forward looking.”

What does that mean for the United States and our newly-formed “supercommittee”? As the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget concludes in a report out Thursday, the United States is going to have to make some big changes, too.

“Continued failed efforts to put our debt on a stable to declining path, continued unwillingness to take on entitlement and tax reform, and the growing gulf between the political parties on fiscal issues will continue to feed lack of confidence in the federal government and the economy more broadly,” the group writes. “Absent a serious plan to bring the debt under control,the consequences could be dire.”

Another history lesson: an improved credit rating requires patience and a commitment to seeing through wide scale policy changes. The year after Canada passed its sweeping budget plan, it received a second S&P downgrade, from AA+ stable to negative. Canada needed to do more than pass a budget; it needed to show that, once implemented, it would work.

Or, as one study of the Canadian fiscal crisis puts it: “Perhaps the main lessons that can be drawn are that a government needs a profound sense of purpose and political commitment to carry out such a daunting task.”
 
The GST was added in 1991 and sold as something to pay off the deficit, IIRC. Still around, but lowered to 5% in the past few years.

I'm sure the US of A is very open to a tax increase of 7% on virtually all goods and services...
 
Good thing we had the responsible Liberals in power to set our financial house in order without destroying the social safety net.You always need to bring in the adults after a decade of conservative rule.

Anyway, where as Canada had a spending problem back then, the US mostly has a revenue problem right now, have a look at this table:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending#Government_spending_as_a_percentage_of_GDP

Country, Tax Burden (&#37😉, Gov Expenditure (%)
Canada, 32.2, 39.7
United States, 26.9, 38.9


So the US spends 2% less than Canada, but takes in 16.5% less in revenue. If the US is to get out of its predicament, it'll need reasonable, responsible people like Chretien and Martin. Can anybody name them?
 
Yeah I don't have a debt problem either I simply have a salary shortfall. Just going to tell my employer that I should get paid more because I spend more.
 
Yeah I don't have a debt problem either I simply have a salary shortfall. Just going to tell my employer that I should get paid more because I spend more.
You should also tell your employer they're stupid for incurring debt and live within their means.
 
Gee do you think Canada's recent development of vast oil reserves in the oil sands have anything to do with their economic miracle? Well you must be wrong because that's no even mentioned in the opinion piece this thread relies upon.
 
Gee do you think Canada's recent development of vast oil reserves in the oil sands have anything to do with their economic miracle? Well you must be wrong because that's no even mentioned in the opinion piece this thread relies upon.

That happened quite some time after the recovery. Besides, there were many other industries which have since done poorly.

It was a large structural change to the government's finances. Paul Martin is regarded here as one of the best finance ministers ever.
 
Gee do you think Canada's recent development of vast oil reserves in the oil sands have anything to do with their economic miracle? Well you must be wrong because that's no even mentioned in the opinion piece this thread relies upon.

And Canada was not the only example given either. So explain all the others that did the same thing with their budget changes to turn around their rating. Nice hyperbole though.
 
How can countries that have socialized healthcare be a good credit risk??

This is something that seems to stump Americans in general, yet many countries around the world prove it can happen. Either reality is wrong, or your preconceived notions about social health are wrong.
 
This is something that seems to stump Americans in general, yet many countries around the world prove it can happen. Either reality is wrong, or your preconceived notions about social health are wrong.

I would go with the second one myself 😉
 
Why do we want AAA rating from S&P? So we can US rated same as subprime mortgages back in the day? So our interest rates go up? No thanks 🙂
 
I think it'd be good to get stories like this circulated in the American press, with the goal of getting the public clamoring for fiscal discipline.

Washington Post - ‘Maple Leaf Miracle’: How Canada and four other countries regained AAA ratings
Interesting article, thanks. I agree that structural changes are required, though I doubt we'll see them. We have far too many voters who deny there even is a problem - other than we're not borrowing and spending even more - to make the pain of structural changes a politically attractive path.
 
Good thing we had the responsible Liberals in power to set our financial house in order without destroying the social safety net.You always need to bring in the adults after a decade of conservative rule.

Anyway, where as Canada had a spending problem back then, the US mostly has a revenue problem right now, have a look at this table:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending#Government_spending_as_a_percentage_of_GDP

Country, Tax Burden (%), Gov Expenditure (%)
Canada, 32.2, 39.7
United States, 26.9, 38.9


So the US spends 2% less than Canada, but takes in 16.5% less in revenue. If the US is to get out of its predicament, it'll need reasonable, responsible people like Chretien and Martin. Can anybody name them?
Context...

Spending has gone UP by a trillion in just 3 years.
Spending vs GDP has gone from 20% in 2008 to around 25% this year.
Revenue has only dropped by 3% in the same time frame.
 
This is something that seems to stump Americans in general, yet many countries around the world prove it can happen. Either reality is wrong, or your preconceived notions about social health are wrong.
France pays for 77-80% of all health expenditures in its country.
Total healthcare spending in France is 11% of its GDP.
aka the French government spends about 8.5% of GDP on healthcare the rest comes from private insurance.

In 2009
The US spent 17.6% of GDP on healthcare.
44% of that came from government.
Thus government spent 7.7% of GDP on healthcare.
https://www.cms.gov/NationalHealthExpendData/downloads/highlights.pdf

So if France can spend 8.5% and provide nearly 80% of all healthcare costs in its country why is it that the US can spend slightly under that number and barely provide 44% of expenditures?

Every percent of GDP they spend provides 9.5% of total healthcare spending.
Every percent of GDP we spend provides 5.8% of total healthcare spending.

Why is there system so much more efficient than ours?

Maybe the goal of healthcare reform should be in figuring that out?
 
France pays for 77-80% of all health expenditures in its country.
Total healthcare spending in France is 11% of its GDP.
aka the French government spends about 8.5% of GDP on healthcare the rest comes from private insurance.

In 2009
The US spent 17.6% of GDP on healthcare.
44% of that came from government.
Thus government spent 7.7% of GDP on healthcare.
https://www.cms.gov/NationalHealthExpendData/downloads/highlights.pdf

So if France can spend 8.5% and provide nearly 80% of all healthcare costs in its country why is it that the US can spend slightly under that number and barely provide 44% of expenditures?

Every percent of GDP they spend provides 9.5% of total healthcare spending.
Every percent of GDP we spend provides 5.8% of total healthcare spending.

Why is there system so much more efficient than ours?

Maybe the goal of healthcare reform should be in figuring that out?

Junk food!

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db50.pdf

I don't want to see a single person in the USA who is considered living in poverty to be obese. If you're going to have food stamps, make them for chicken, broccoli, and rice.

Our healthcare is drowning in coca-cola!
 
France pays for 77-80% of all health expenditures in its country.
Total healthcare spending in France is 11% of its GDP.
aka the French government spends about 8.5% of GDP on healthcare the rest comes from private insurance.

In 2009
The US spent 17.6% of GDP on healthcare.
44% of that came from government.
Thus government spent 7.7% of GDP on healthcare.
https://www.cms.gov/NationalHealthExpendData/downloads/highlights.pdf

So if France can spend 8.5% and provide nearly 80% of all healthcare costs in its country why is it that the US can spend slightly under that number and barely provide 44% of expenditures?

Every percent of GDP they spend provides 9.5% of total healthcare spending.
Every percent of GDP we spend provides 5.8% of total healthcare spending.

Why is there system so much more efficient than ours?

Maybe the goal of healthcare reform should be in figuring that out?

You also have to remember their GDP is smaller than ours.
I would love for the last sentence of your post to be true, but something like that would only be the first step. Implementing a plan that can give Americans the health care coverage of a country like France should be the second part.
However there are far to many "small government(*)" people both in congress and the citizenry for something as logical as that to happen.

*Small Government being defined as "I got mine, fuck you."
 
Yeah I don't have a debt problem either I simply have a salary shortfall. Just going to tell my employer that I should get paid more because I spend more.

A better analogy would be that you're spending a lot of money on your employer, such as traveling around by car or plane and staying in hotels, and you need an expense account.

In this case, the employee (the government) is spending a lot of money on its employer (the people), but the people aren't covering its expenses.
 
Gee do you think Canada's recent development of vast oil reserves in the oil sands have anything to do with their economic miracle? Well you must be wrong because that's no even mentioned in the opinion piece this thread relies upon.

Nope. The recovery happened during the mid and late 90s. Oil prices were near historical lows at that point and the Oil Sands industry was hurting badly.
 
Context...

Spending has gone UP by a trillion in just 3 years.
Spending vs GDP has gone from 20% in 2008 to around 25% this year.
Revenue has only dropped by 3% in the same time frame.

Nice try, but we also had a huge stimulus program to weather out the recession.

The US gets a terrible return for it's healthcare spending, but efforts to reform it were/are doomed because of special interests like insurance companies and right-wing groups. The US is under-taxed, but efforts to raise revenue are doomed because of an angry populace. The US spends too much on its military, but no one wishes to give up their Top Dog spot.

Now you see why S&P thinks you guys are screwed. You guys will just keep bickering until you hit rock bottom.
 
A better analogy would be that you're spending a lot of money on your employer, such as traveling around by car or plane and staying in hotels, and you need an expense account.

In this case, the employee (the government) is spending a lot of money on its employer (the people), but the people aren't covering its expenses.

And to slightly improve upon that analogy:

The employee really has two top bosses, and two direct managers, at the same time: The top boss named Democrat tells the employee to make sure to tip the strippers (covered by the employer) with $100 tips, make sure to drink top shelf, and don't get the Ford Fusion, make sure to get the F350 SuperCrew dually to drive just himself around...i.e. spend as much as F'ing possible, the direct Democrat manager loves this and passes it on. The other top boss called Republican tells the employee he's to account for every penny and not spend a dime more than necessary, spend within his means. The direct Republican manager tells him that, then blows sh1tloads of money the company doesn't have either.

The employee is like, WTF am I supposed to do??? F it, mine as well have fun if I'm going to get fired....now, where's Sarah and Michelle, I gots some mo hunnuds!!!
 
France pays for 77-80% of all health expenditures in its country.
Total healthcare spending in France is 11% of its GDP.
aka the French government spends about 8.5% of GDP on healthcare the rest comes from private insurance.

In 2009
The US spent 17.6% of GDP on healthcare.
44% of that came from government.
Thus government spent 7.7% of GDP on healthcare.
https://www.cms.gov/NationalHealthExpendData/downloads/highlights.pdf

So if France can spend 8.5% and provide nearly 80% of all healthcare costs in its country why is it that the US can spend slightly under that number and barely provide 44% of expenditures?

Every percent of GDP they spend provides 9.5% of total healthcare spending.
Every percent of GDP we spend provides 5.8% of total healthcare spending.

Why is there system so much more efficient than ours?

Maybe the goal of healthcare reform should be in figuring that out?

simple, France healthcare and other socialized healthcare are non-profit
the USA is based around profit, massive profits
 
Nice try, but we also had a huge stimulus program to weather out the recession.

The US gets a terrible return for it's healthcare spending, but efforts to reform it were/are doomed because of special interests like insurance companies and right-wing groups. The US is under-taxed, but efforts to raise revenue are doomed because of an angry populace. The US spends too much on its military, but no one wishes to give up their Top Dog spot.

Now you see why S&P thinks you guys are screwed. You guys will just keep bickering until you hit rock bottom.

You are assuming that Canadian and European levels of government spending are the "correct" solution. Raising taxes to that level with moderate spending cuts is an option. However the US has historical had significantly lower levels of government spending and taxes than Canada or Europe. This was part of the reason that we had 30% higher GDP per capita than Europe.

Now we can't have it both ways. We need to get back to historical American levels of spending of go to European style taxes. That's partly why the debate is so nasty, these are two very different visions for the country.
 
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