WAN clarification.... Part II

xyyz

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Sep 3, 2000
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thanks for all of you who tried explaining what a T1 was and how it related to the different encapsulation methods.... while I am still confused, I'm alot less confused thanks to you guys.

alright... let's add to that one... correct me if i'm wrong.


okay so you want a T1 with an ISP... since the t1 is point to point, your ISP calls the telco and they connect one end to your demarc, and the other end to the ISP's demarc... right?

now, when you send traffic out the TSU/DSU, it goes to the ISP's TSU/DSU, which connects to a router's WAN (serial) port, which then strips the frame down to a packet... and sends that through the network... right?

okay... I can see how this would work if the routers were in the same building... but I'm confused what happens while the packet traverses the ISP network...

but before that let's look at this...

take this for example

customer - LA
ISP - SF

now, the point-to-point link will go from LA to SF, courtesy of the telco... but what does it use PHYSICALLY to get from LA to SF? does it go across a special wire that is run from LA to SF? or does it go through the telco's CO mesh... if it does that... wouldn't that make it circuit switched (correct the terminology please) sorta like a frame relay? and if it's going through multiple points, doesn't this connection cease to become a point-to-point connection?

okay now... say the frame lands in SF and is destined for NY...

what happens... since this is inside the ISP's internal network, do routers handle this w/o uses of layer-2 devices? what sort of layer-3 device will allow packets to travel this distance?

how does the packet get from SF to NY? is it made into a frame once again and fired over a layer-2 connection.... if so, what use is a router... since the router handles layer-3 things?

i hope you understand what i'm trying to say... 'cause I've sorta confused myself somemore.


also, if you don't mind

can you explain to me step-by-step what happens when you are sending data from say SD, to Boston, via Austin... if you don't mind discuss it from layer 4 all the way to layer 1 back up to layer 4... and please include all the equipment that this information travels through and what role the equipment plays.

I know it's alot to ask... but my CCNA is nearing and this WAN section is something that I simply can't understand.
 

Nutz

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Sep 3, 2000
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Oh no! You again!

Seriously though.



<< okay so you want a T1 with an ISP... since the t1 is point to point, your ISP calls the telco and they connect one end to your demarc, and the other end to the ISP's demarc... right? >>



In a word, yes. In router terms it'd be the subscriber's IP and the gateway IP.



<< now, when you send traffic out the TSU/DSU, it goes to the ISP's TSU/DSU, which connects to a router's WAN (serial) port, which then strips the frame down to a packet... and sends that through the network... right?

okay... I can see how this would work if the routers were in the same building... but I'm confused what happens while the packet traverses the ISP network...
>>



Correct, except its not a TSU/DSU (and I'm sure about it being stripped down from a frame to a packet). The correct term is CSU/DSU (channel service unit/data service unit). Its basically a modem for long distance transmission. Serial connections are good for a few meters, but after that it needs to be changed over (again, I'm not really sure of the limitations for serial connections).

Once the packet goes out the CSU/DSU its basically a signal. NO DATA FUNCTIONS OR ROUTING TAKES PLACE. Another CSU/DSU picks up the signal from the wire and reforms it into data usable by the router. Once its in data form, the ISP passes the packets from router to router until it gets squirted out to their service provider, and on, and on, until it reaches the destination network.
 

subflava

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Feb 8, 2001
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Whoa...this is a long one. Let me give it a shot and other people can fill in the gaps if I miss/misinterpret anything.



<< okay so you want a T1 with an ISP... since the t1 is point to point, your ISP calls the telco and they connect one end to your demarc, and the other end to the ISP's demarc... right? >>


Basically correct. To be exact, the ISP's end is usually located at a large data center with many connections coming in and most likely the T1's come in MUX'd as T3's or larger circuits which are then broken down further and cross-connected once inside the data center. I'm not 100% sure what all the correct terminology and equipment involved is or how many different ways this can be done.



<< okay so you want a T1 with an ISP... since the t1 is point to point, your ISP calls the telco and they connect one end to your demarc, and the other end to the ISP's demarc... right?
now, when you send traffic out the TSU/DSU, it goes to the ISP's TSU/DSU, which connects to a router's WAN (serial) port, which then strips the frame down to a packet... and sends that through the network... right?
okay... I can see how this would work if the routers were in the same building... but I'm confused what happens while the packet traverses the ISP network...
>>



What Nutz said.



<< now, the point-to-point link will go from LA to SF, courtesy of the telco... but what does it use PHYSICALLY to get from LA to SF? <snip> >>



Maybe if there are any telco guys they can give us some insight into this. At the LA location there would be a copper loop (probably cross connected several times) to the servicing CO (same for the SF end). However, I don't know exactly how the CO's are interconnected, but an educated guess would be that the signals are MUX'd into a larger connections and the CO's themselves probably have a private network connecting each other. There's a name for the CO to CO connection which I can't remember right now, but this can be really expensive. Your ideal T1 would have both ends served by the same CO to reduce cost.


I think the rest of your confusion just stems from no clearly separating the Layer2/Layer3 parts of the connections. Once a data packet reaches the ISP it is most likely an IP packet and is routed from router to router until it reaches its destination. Since the destination is in NY, it's unlikely the ISP has an ethernet network running from SF to NY. Most likely the ISP will hand off the packet to an upstream provider (ie, someone with a big network) who will ensure the packet continues on its way. Along the way this packet will probably be encapsulated/un-encapsulated many times as it goes through ATM/SONET and who knows what else.
 

xyyz

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Sep 3, 2000
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<<
Correct, except its not a TSU/DSU (and I'm sure about it being stripped down from a frame to a packet). The correct term is CSU/DSU (channel service unit/data service unit). Its basically a modem for long distance transmission. Serial connections are good for a few meters, but after that it needs to be changed over (again, I'm not really sure of the limitations for serial connections).
>>



Hmmm... according to my Cisco Academy text, a CSU/DSU used for a T1 is also known as a TSU/DSU.

As a matter of fact the adtran labled the unit they sent us a TSU.

Go figure... :/
 

ScottMac

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Mar 19, 2001
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Chances are the ISP has some service bandwidth in LA (a Point-of-Presence...or POP). The user has one end (to a CSU/DSU) the POP has the other end. In the POP, there will be some sort of switching device, because it's likely that the data may be dispactched from the LA POP directly to another POP that is closer to the NYC POP.

Whatever the chosen route, the bandwitch from our user's location will be aggregated in some form or fashion. Most common these days would be a huge friggin' router (a T1 aggregator, like the Cisco 10000/(12000?) series, or possibly a Digital Access Cross-connect (a DACS). or maybe even ATM. The bandwidth can be aggregated using any or all of the above, depending on the providers "line of products" (data only, voice & data, whatever).

DACS are widely used, because they can perform a function called "groom & fill." They can take partial "pipes" of bandwidth (like a T1) and "fill" them with other partial pipe's bandwidth, then split it out again somewhere down the line...grooming and filling lets the transport carrier (the "long lines" guys) maximize the utilization of the "Fat Pipes" (like OC48 (2.4G), OC192 (10gig)) that span the country and the world. It might look something like this (sometimes text sucks):

LA - T1,HDLC (User)--> LA (POP) -->router (decides which path to send the data)-->DACS (aggregates the T1 into a DS3,OC3, OC48,OC192,whatever)-->Long Lines (as part of an OC3,48,192)-->NYC (POP)-->DACS (splits the T1 back out) -->router (T1, HDLC)--->end user router (T1, HDLC to Ethernet)-->server.

The "Long Lines" part may be a single hop, or it may be a dozen, depending on the carrier. The actual route may be LA -->New Orleans-Chicago-Toranto-Washington DC-NYC...if you look around the internet, some carriers/providers will publish their route maps. Some carriers will subcontract their long lines to other carriers, some will buy bandwidth from others (like AT&T, SPRINT, Williams, etc).

In either case, the bandwidth may stay as a collective group, or it may be pulled to groom & fill other partial pipes...at each switching node some traffic is split out, some traffic is added...the groom & fill process is dynamic across the span...the goal is to keep the pipes as full as possible to maximize the investment. DACs are also set up for failover switching. If the primary link drops, a secondary link is automatically switched in with little or no interruption. An ATM long lines infrastructure is very similar, has basically the same capability, and is possibly more efficient for pure data transmission. THe structure is basically the same, just substitute "ATM Switch" where it says "DACs."

Since "The Internet" is really just a collection of smaller systems tied together, with a few companies offering "express lanes" from one point to another, routers at each of the switching nodes have a specific routing table that relates to "how to get from here to there." When the traffic reaches an "off ramp," the DACs/switch/router moves it into another pipe heading closer to that destination. Since the long lines paths are somewhat fixed, the routing tables remain fairly static...with adjustments for link failures, load balancing, and traffic management.

Some carriers (like Ameritech in Chicago) have "Super-POPs" or "Network Access Points" (NAPs) that serve a number of other providers. If you dig deep enough on the Ameritech website, they have a list of which local providers are using their NAP out of Chicago.

The end-user's encapsulation pretty much goes away somwhere around the POP. In any given long lines pipe, some channels are going to be what oiginated as Frame Relay, some channels will be traffic that originated as point-to-point, some DSL, some ISDN, some dial-up (PPP). "In the big pipes, all traffic looks the same." Because the destination is known and declared, when the traffic exits the big pipe, it is re-encapsulated according to that path's specification for delivery.

Because of the way the system is set up, you can have 23 locations, all with 56K, send their traffic to a central location who receives it as 23 channels of a single T1. The central location has to have the equipment to process the aggregated, channelized signal...but pretty much any router can do this...or use a MUX to break out the individual channels and route them as separate entities (like some voice, some data).

The real magic here is that the "Fat Pipes" are really strands of fiber, 8.3 microns in diameter (Single Mode Fiber), that's about one-tenth the diameter of a human hair....some "fat" pipe, huh?

The usual disclaimers apply: At best, this is a surface scratching, there are a jillion details omitted. Some details may be bent to reduce an already lengthy post. If anyone else wants to get more specific, have at it.

Hopefully this "fills in some of the gaps."

FWIW, Happy Holidays

Scott







 

xyyz

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Sep 3, 2000
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<<
Once the packet goes out the CSU/DSU its basically a signal. NO DATA FUNCTIONS OR ROUTING TAKES PLACE. Another CSU/DSU picks up the signal from the wire and reforms it into data usable by the router. Once its in data form, the ISP passes the packets from router to router until it gets squirted out to their service provider, and on, and on, until it reaches the destination network.
>>



okay so the csu/dsu is a layer-1 device?
 

Nutz

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Sep 3, 2000
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For the most part, yes.

Also did some research on your TSU/CSU. You are correct. Apparently a TSU is a "The TSU (T1 Service Unit)". Sounds like its basically a T1 CSU/DSU just with a slight variation to designate its use on a T carrier circuit.
 

L3Guy

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Apr 19, 2001
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<< but what does it use PHYSICALLY to get from LA to SF? >>



The first T-1's used two copper pair with a repeater every city block to transport T-1. It made T-1 somewhat expensive by today?s standards. :) That?s a lot of repeaters.

One of the ways that is still used is to (TDM) multiplex 28 t-1's into a T-3. This is/was typically transported via microwave between cities.
More recently, the same DS-3 was again Multiplexed with 2 other DS3's into a fiber transport known as OC-3. The OC-3 is usually used with redundancy. In its redundant configuration it is referred to as a SONET ring. The path between cities could be over a single sonet ring, or many. Mysterious are the ways of the Telco. :)

This OC-3 could be multiplexed with 3 other oc-3, and transported over fiber as an OC-12. Similarly, OC-48, and OC-192 are larger capacity optical transports.

This method of propagation of digital information in TDM format is referred to as "Digital Hierarchy".




<< if it does that... wouldn't that make it circuit switched >>


NO. The T-1 is mapped to a single time slot on each leg of its journey. The ability to change time slots without reverting to a physical T-1 is called Groom and Fill, but its static, so switched does not apply.


<< sorta like a frame relay? >>


This has dedicated bandwidth, whether used or not. The frame relay shares bandwidth with other users.


<< and if it's going through multiple points, doesn't this connection cease to become a point-to-point connection? >>


Since its indistinguishable from a T-1 over copper, its still point to point.


<< what sort of layer-3 device will allow packets to travel this distance? >>


As long as the timeouts are appropriate, the Layer 3 device is blissfully unaware of distance.



<< if so, what use is a router... since the router handles layer-3 things? >>


There may be several paths between point A and point B.
The routers job is to choose between the multiple paths, and send the packet down
the chosen path. That choice is based on which routing algorithm is chosen, and what metrics are used in that routing protocol.
Sufficient to say it chooses.



<< 'cause I've sorta confused myself somemore. >>


Te path to wisdom lies in 3 simple words: I don't know. Keep asking.

Doug
 

Garion

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Apr 23, 2001
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I know this isn't necessarily the right attitude, but sometimes it's good to know how something works in general terms, and suffice it with that - For example, I'm a data guy, not a circuit guy - I don't care how the T1's get from CO-to-CO - It could be carrier pidgeons, just as long as it works. *grin*

In all seriousness, it is good to understand it, but there's a lot of other areas to focus on in the world of networking - Understanding circuits is a LOT easier as you go along, believe me.

In any case.. A lot of the back-end work is done with ATM and other voodoo magic - I don't know if any major carriers still maintain a true frame relay network - Nearly all of the offer frame relay at the edge, facing the customer, but they use ATM at the core. It's far more efficient and easier to deal with than a private frame relay network. Cheaper for the carrier, too, since they only have to maintain one network.

I've usually heard the term TSU when referring to a CSU/DSU that has the capability to channelize the T1 bandwidth and allocate it to different interface - i.e., send 12 ports to the PBX for office-to-office dialing and 12 ports for data for our WAN. I seem to recall it's Adtran that calls their models "TSUxxx". This is also referred to as an Add/Drop CSU/DSU.

On the "Is the TSU a Layer 1 Device" question, the answer is, for the most part, yes. It handles the physical line communication between two routers. It does have some work with the data, in terms of framing and encoding, but those don't really deal with device-to-device communcations, really just setting up the paramaters how the two CSU/DSU's will communicate. When it comes to WAN, sometimes the OSI model can get a bit blury in the lower layers.

You've asked good questions on WAN connectivity - What's next - Firewalls?

- G
 

xyyz

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Sep 3, 2000
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<< You've asked good questions on WAN connectivity - What's next - Firewalls? >>



no... we're still not done with WANs... :)

although i'm thinking of VPN stuff next

I guess what really confuses me is the entire frame-relay mesh concept. for some reason, I keep thinking of this as a layer-3 router mesh, even though it's not, right?

let's get back to what happens to frames between frame relay switches.



<< Once the packet goes out the CSU/DSU its basically a signal. NO DATA FUNCTIONS OR ROUTING TAKES PLACE. Another CSU/DSU picks up the signal from the wire and reforms it into data usable by the router. Once its in data form, the ISP passes the packets from router to router until it gets squirted out to their service provider, and on, and on, until it reaches the destination network. >>



so how are routers incorporated into a frame relay network?

when a frame enters the frame relay mesh... is it routed (I get the impression that the frame relay switches do some sort of frame routing)? or does it follow a static path through the mesh? if it's routed, how is it routed? I thought frame relay only deals with frames, and I thought routing occured with packets. so how does a frame relay switch decide which path the frame will traverse through the frame relay mesh?

but, I do recall something about DLCI's in frame relay, and how a DLCI was a point-to-point designation. so, would this mean that when a frame enters the mesh, it does indeed follow a static route to get from one end to the other, or does the DLCI only indicate, say, LA to SF and let the switches deal with what path the frame will take to get there?



<< Once a data packet reaches the ISP it is most likely an IP packet and is routed from router to router until it reaches its destination >>



what if the packet is being routed from a router to another router that are seperated by a LONG distance, and the packet is still in the ISP network, and not being distributed to an upstream provider, or is passed from an ISP to an upsteam provider that pushes the packet from one router to another over a very long distance?



<< DACS are widely used, because they can perform a function called "groom & fill." They can take partial "pipes" of bandwidth (like a T1) and "fill" them with other partial pipe's bandwidth, then split it out again somewhere down the line... >>



and



<< The ability to change time slots without reverting to a physical T-1 is called Groom and Fill, but its static, so switched does not apply. >>



this "groom and fill" sounds pretty significant... I got the "fill" bit but I don't know what the "groom" does... anyone care to explain further or provide a nifty link?



<< LA - T1,HDLC (User)--> LA (POP) -->router (decides which path to send the data)-->DACS (aggregates the T1 into a DS3,OC3, OC48,OC192,whatever)-->Long Lines (as part of an OC3,48,192)-->NYC (POP)-->DACS (splits the T1 back out) -->router (T1, HDLC)--->end user router (T1, HDLC to Ethernet)-->server. >>



okay... hang on... I always thought that a router only decided the path to the NEXT router and not the entire path... am I wrong here?

second... this is a flashback to the previous WAN post... this HDLC could be ummm... PPP or frame-relay right? and this encapsulation MUST BE the same on both ends right?



<< The "Long Lines" part may be a single hop, or it may be a dozen, depending on the carrier. >>



so, the fact that it might be a single hop or a dozen has nothing to do with the term "point-to-point"?



hmmm... alright I gotta run for a few... but this list will be added to....
 

Garion

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Apr 23, 2001
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Think of Frame Relay this way - There's a whole network of routers servicing the frame relay cloud, "routing" data through the network. In reality, it is really like a L3 routing, but to you, the customer, it's transparent. All you know is that data goes into the cloud and comes out of the cloud just like it went in.

There's different types of "routing" - You're thinking of the classic L3 IP-based routing. In frame relay, there's "routing" of a packet based on the PVC/DLCI that's been programmed into the network. The IP header information isn't being examined and doesn't get changed, one of the key differentiators of classic L3 routing. Think of frame relay like the phone network - You pick up your phone line, it goes to the CO, which then sends it across the PSTN based on the area code which you dialed. If you think about it, that's routing in a way, too. Frame relay works at the same level.

Perhaps it's confusing to call communications within the frame relay cloud "routing", but that's the only word we've got.

- G
 

ScottMac

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Point-to-point.....one layer-one segment. From your place to the other place. If the other place is an ISP, another corporate location, or a broom closet in Disneyland...ONE SEGMENT: POINT TO POINT. The ONE segment may have anywhere from zero to a sh*tload of repeaters...it can be 100 feet long, or a couple thousand miles..it's a layer-one connection;any amplification, retransmission, or low-level switching (like a DACs)...doesn't matter...from User Demarc to end-point destination DEMARC, it's considered ONE LOGICAL layer-one segment until some higher-level device acts on the traffic.

Just like Structured Cabling. From the User's PC the cable can transit two punchdown blocks/panels, two wallplates, and two jumpers...but it's considered a single Layer-One segment. Until it hits a higher-level device, it's one segment. It looks like one chunk of wire to the router interface. That's why the term "Pipe" fits so well here...you push something in one end, and it's comes out the other..a real pipe doesn't care if it's oil, gas, or water...if it comes in one end, it goes out the other.

If the other end is an ISP, they take the packet and send it somewhere else, but that packet has left your POINT TO POINT connection. It's gone through a higher-level device (routers and or hubs/switches) and the data is on the way through the next segment (however long, regardless of intermediate layer-one repeaters or layer-one switches). When the data hits a higher level device (like a router) and some action is taken, it's left THAT segment...and so on.

Yes, instead of HDLC, it could have been any of the other previously discussed protocols within the parameters of the previously discussed architectures.

The "Goom" part of "Groom & Fill" is collecting fractional bandwidth to similar destinations to effeiciently direct the data to the next switching site.

Frame Relay is not plug & play as far as provisioning the service. You have to tell the Frame Relay provider where you want the traffic sent, they set it up within the switching cloud so it gets there. It's all one big virtual flat network within the cloud, at layer two. It doesn't care if it's Novell IPX traffic, IP, AppleTalk...the cloud doesn't look that high, it's just a smart piece of wire.

The router at either end IS still determining the path, the end-point routers only "see" one chunk of wire, they think they're directly connected. All the magic that's occuring is invisible to the router. THe routers says "The best path for my data is this serial port (or T1 port with an integrated DSU/CSU)" it sends it out that port because some other process (like a routing protocol or static mapping) says it the best path...

Garion's analogy to a voice phone call is dead on. It's same basic process, same basic infrastructure. You know that even though you're calling acoross the street, the circuit is actually back to a Central Office (CO), then maybe even another CO, then to the other phone. Do you hear those hops? Did you know that the same phone call could conceivably be routing through ten different states or provinces...if the voice cloud has some failed links, or is executing some traffic management, it'll route your call the best way it can...but you still don't see (hear) all those hops, to your phone and the phone at the other end, it's just one chunk of wire from here to there.

At it's most basic level, all a DACs is is a smart punchdown or cross-connect block that can be managed remotely. Instead of sending a guy into the hole to complete the circuit, it's done by command from some control center. The other functions (G&F, Failover swittching, traffic management) are all just icing on the cake.


I gotta go shopping, rumor has it that Christmas is gonna happen pretty soon.......

FWIW

Scott
 

spidey07

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Aug 4, 2000
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If it helps any you can look at some decodes of frame-relay and other kinds of WAN traffic. You can clearly see the layer2 portion frame-relay header. I believe it is two bytes simply containing the frame-relay destination DLCI plus your fecn/becn bits.

Also, go ask your provider to get a tour of one of their POPs. That'll give you a real good idea of what a DACs, frame switch and ATM core look like.
 

L3Guy

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Apr 19, 2001
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To Recap:

In networking we are interested in forwarding, and where the forwarding decision takes place.

Layer 1. Frame enters port A, Leaves Port B. Nothing examined packet, just placed it out one or more ports based solely on which port was ingress.
Examples: Hub, T-1 (point-to-point)

Layer 2. Frame enters port A. Media address examined. Frame forwarded based on destination media address.
Example: Frame Relay, Ethernet switches.

Layer 3. Frame enters Router, frame discarded, packet examined for protocol address. Packet forwarding based on destination protocol address. packet is encapsulated with a frame, including a media address of its next hop.
Examples: TCP/IP, IPX

Layer 4-7 Upper. Varies by protocol. :)

In frame relay, the DLCI is the destination media address. The frame relay switches forward based on this address.
Basically, if its 17, it must be Cleveland. :)



<< it does indeed follow a static route to get from one end to the other >>


Yes.


<< so how are routers incorporated into a frame relay network? >>


Routers are not part of the frame network. The frame relay network is composed of frame relay switches, transport and someone to set up the PVC's, that are designated by a DLCI.

Your network can use the frame relay service by attaching a bridge or router to a "tail" circuit, usually a 56k 0r T-1.


<< so how does a frame relay switch decide which path the frame will traverse through the frame relay mesh? >>


An engineer sets a static path through the frame relay cloud.


<< , the fact that it might be a single hop or a dozen has nothing to do with the term "point-to-point"? >>


If a frame is forwarded based on entrance port and only has one destination, its referred to as point to point.
How the Telco implements the layer 1 path through their transport is their problem.

Regards;

Doug
 

xyyz

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Sep 3, 2000
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this is a repost of L3guy's post which I thought was good.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

<< actually i'm confused about WANs in general... >>

LOL!
By the quality of the responses so far, you came to the right place.



<< can someone please explain this to me? >>


My turn!



<< frame relay is all about a switch matrix... yet it doesn't operate on Layer-3, it operates on layer-2.... right? >>



For our purposes, yes. Frame relay is a layer 2 transport.



<< so how does frame relay decide the best path to switch the frame to get it to it's destination if there is no router there to route the packets? >>

Frame relay networks are based on the concept of statistical multiplexing. Or to state more clearly, what?s the chance of everyone transmitting at once? However, it is circuit switched technology. When the circuit is created, an engineer defines a path the frames will travel through the frame relay cloud, and assigns a number, called a DLCI to that circuit. Once the router places the packet/frame on the frame relay network with a specific DLCI, is must show up at the other end of that circuit. Purely a layer 2 event.
No routers need be involved. The IP or other protocol information is not examined in route. Think of it as a "fractional T-1 with bandwidth sharing" and you will get the idea. Your data passes other data like ships in the night.



<< and where do routers fit in here? >>


The router decides which interface(s) and which DLCI or DLCI's to place the data on, based on its routing table.



<< I thought that the DLCI was a logical (or is it physical and why is it a logical or physical) address to a router... >>


Yes. The DLCI is the layer 2 address of the permanent virtual circuit. The TLA for that is PVC, by the way. Its a logical address.

An example might help.

Say we are opening a company with offices in Peoria, Indianapolis and Green Bay, and a home office in Chicago.
Because traffic will consist of VOIP, Video and Data, we have chosen to have a CIR (committed information rate) of 512k transported on a full T-1 to each of our 3 branches. Because we do not anticipate much traffic between the branches, the remote sites will only have 1 PVC to the home office. (and one DLCI) The central site will also have a T-1, with 3 total DLCI's on a T-1, one DLCI running to each remote site.
We had a meeting to discuss whether we wanted to have the Frame relay network treated as one IP subnet, or as point to point networks. While both approaches will work, it was decided to create point to point subinterfaces on the router to allow our routing protocol to be aware of any down circuit at layer 3.
The Telco advised us that they were using the Annex-d LMI (local management), so we configured our routers to take advantage of the information that the Frame relay management protocol provides. It will notify the router if one of the PVC's in the cloud drops, for example.

WE later found out that there was significant voice traffic between branches, so we ask our provider to provision 2 other PVC's at each branch location, each with a CIR of 128K.

You get the drift. Your job is to configure the routers to place the packet on the right interface with the correct DLCI. The providers job is to deliver it.

If you have several routers, one with several serial interfaces, you can use one of the Cisco routers as a frame switch. this is absolutely the best way to learn frame relay. It forces you to configure both the switch and the routers correctly.

I'm sure I missed something. Ask away.

Doug

----------------------------------------------------------------------
 

xyyz

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Sep 3, 2000
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0

alright... ready for more?



<< The router at either end IS still determining the path, the end-point routers only "see" one chunk of wire, they think they're directly connected. All the magic that's occuring is invisible to the router. THe routers says "The best path for my data is this serial port (or T1 port with an integrated DSU/CSU)" it sends it out that port because some other process (like a routing protocol or static mapping) says it the best path... >>



alright... when you say this you aren't talking about the WAN are you... you're saying that the frame is stripped into a packet when the router gets it and then the router decides which LAN port to push it out of... right?


okay.... I was doing a traceroute a little while ago, and that confused me...

each node on the route is supposed to be a layer-3 device right? if this is the case... all that I see is packet routing... but these packets are traversing a WAN... so how do these two things come together? where does the packet do the frame-to-packet and packet-to-frame switch?

for example... you are in LA and you do a traceroute to your SF office... you get a bunch of nodes that your traceroute encounters...

now, if you are on a frame relay or a point-to-point connection... you should only see the LA exit router (say only one router out) and the SF entry router right?

hmmmm.... I have another question about this... but I don't know how to phrase it... lemme go drink some juice... maybe that will help.

 

ScottMac

Moderator<br>Networking<br>Elite member
Mar 19, 2001
5,471
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Well, theoretically, what you asked is true...you should only see one hop to the destination --- IF --- there was only the entrace & exit routers on the net. That's usually not the case. It's unlikely that an ISP can (or would want) a single line going from every city they cover to every other city they cover...the map would start to look like needlepoint.

THe ISP or carrier will have a system of routers that exist in multiple systems of sub-networks and links. They are going to look at the system the same way as any other LAN/WAN designer and implementer....Keep as much local traffic local (i.e., off the long lines) as possible, route the shortest/fastest/most desirable links...depending on the nature of that specific link.

Anyway, bottom line, a single hop through the ISP (who probably doesn't have P-2-P links from everywhere to everywhere) is going to move your traffic through some path, which probobly consists of a series of links from POP-to-POP (or POP to switching centers or monitoring centers), each of those nodes will show up as a hop/router.

Happy Holidays

Scott
 

xyyz

Diamond Member
Sep 3, 2000
4,331
0
0


<< Well, theoretically, what you asked is true...you should only see one hop to the destination --- IF --- there was only the entrace & exit routers on the net. That's usually not the case. It's unlikely that an ISP can (or would want) a single line going from every city they cover to every other city they cover...the map would start to look like needlepoint.

THe ISP or carrier will have a system of routers that exist in multiple systems of sub-networks and links. They are going to look at the system the same way as any other LAN/WAN designer and implementer....Keep as much local traffic local (i.e., off the long lines) as possible, route the shortest/fastest/most desirable links...depending on the nature of that specific link.

Anyway, bottom line, a single hop through the ISP (who probably doesn't have P-2-P links from everywhere to everywhere) is going to move your traffic through some path, which probobly consists of a series of links from POP-to-POP (or POP to switching centers or monitoring centers), each of those nodes will show up as a hop/router.
>>



okay this is confusing me now... doesn't this conflict with the concept of a static frame-relay route or a point-to-point link if you are dealing with different routers?

S-.... i'm never gonna understand this :/
 

Garion

Platinum Member
Apr 23, 2001
2,331
7
81
When you talk about "hops" you're looking at a traceroute, right? That's at layer 3, the network layer where IP lives. In general, IP doesn't really care about the physical infrastructure underneath it. You could be sending traffic from Seattle to Miami through a massive frame relay network that actually goes across thirty devices. But to IP, it's just one hop, since anything lower than layer 3 is pretty much ignored.

Out of curiosity.. How familiar are you with the OSI 7 layer model? It's a pretty key part of networking and a very good thing to understand. If you're not, Here's a good reference.

- G
 

xyyz

Diamond Member
Sep 3, 2000
4,331
0
0

I think I have a pretty decent idea about the OSI... hence the confusion. I realize that routers route layer-3 packets.

I am not confused because I gathered that a point-to-point connection involved only one entry and one exit router... but in ScottMac's last statement he mentioned that there could be numerious entry or exit routers. Isn't this sorta contradictory to what we mean by point-to-point?
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
It is point-to-point to you. But you are still switched by some means within the ATM network. the virtual circuit is created and mapped through the switch network. To you it looks like a point-to-point circuit. In reality that's all you need to care about - how it works for you.

Carrier networks are different beasts than what you learn in cisco school. Sometimes can be confusing. For what its worth the only types used nowadays are frame-relay and p2p. You don't have to worry about the underlying carrier infrastructure.
 

ScottMac

Moderator<br>Networking<br>Elite member
Mar 19, 2001
5,471
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Please don't shoot me for this one.......

Remember the "Information Superhighway?" Unfortunately, it's not really a bad analogy either. If you want to drive from Detroit to Chicago (and you've got enough gas), you get on the highway, you drive, you get off somewhere in Chicago (careful on the South Side)...on the way you pass dozens of on and off ramps, you don't take 'em, because that's not where you're s'posed to go.

They're there for the OTHERS that want to go to Detroit or Chiago (or points in-between). Same thing. To you, Interstate 94 is Point-to-Point. For the little old ladies with bad bladders, it's multiple hops.....(ignore the old ladies thing, it doesn't really apply).

As long as you're encapsulated in your car, it's one hop. Even if there's a traffic jam, and you stay in the car, it's a single hop. Even if there's a detour, and you stay encapsulated in your car, it's one hop. You get in in Detroit, you get out in Chicago...One hop. You go through a bunch of cities, but that's not where you're going, so you just drive on through (you're routed through).

Sometime to get where you wanna go, you get on one Interstate, get off on a local road (some transition network or carrier), then onto another Interstate to get where you wanna go. All of the lower OSI layers have some flavor of "routing," None of them know about what's happening below them or above them, for that matter...they only watch their own layer.

For all intents and purposes, everything at layer one is "just wire," there could be a zillion things moving and switching traffic...but eveything above, it's just wire. In some form or fasion, some human had to set up and program the gozintas and gozouttas.....but it's just "wire."

Now I've gone and had to drag out the "Super Highway" thing....I feel so ashamed...I'm on dial-up, and I had to do the "Super Highway" thing....this is depressing....

Hope y'all had a good holiday!

Take care

Scott

 

xyyz

Diamond Member
Sep 3, 2000
4,331
0
0

I feel honored... your 1000th post on my thread... :)



<< Now I've gone and had to drag out the "Super Highway" thing....I feel so ashamed...I'm on dial-up, and I had to do the "Super Highway" thing....this is depressing.... >>



awwww don't feel too bad... we've all been there at one time... if it helps you can have a shell account... not that I really know what you'd wanna do with one from me. :)


I got what you were saying about the "info super-highway" great example on that one. It did help.

but......... maybe this might help me a bit more....

I've done a traceroute from home to the forums.anandtech.com... can someone break it down for me?

And let's assume the following... I have a p-2-p connection from a business... that connects into the pbi and then sprint network, that is a framerelay.

I still can't get over the confusion of why you have so many hops and why we do packet routing, when on a layer-2 frame relay. I still can't get over the block that the telco mesh, shouldn't have any routers in it... and that the traffic is predestined.

Something, isn't working that should tell me the frame relay is only traversed when we are dealing with two city offices. I guess my main confusion lies with the gateway, and what happens when you sent traffic outta your company WAN.



<< You don't have to worry about the underlying carrier infrastructure. >>



I know I'm probably beginning to piss people off with my constant questions and many redundant questions, but I'm a sort, where, if i'm stuck on one thing... I cannot learn anything until that's resolved and worse I start forgetting what I have learned.

And right now, I want a clear understanding of how the carrier network works... :/

I really appreciate you guys bearing with me.

1 15 ms 16 ms 16 ms adsl-63-193-147-254.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.193.147.254]
2 16 ms 31 ms 15 ms dist3-vlan50.lsan03.pbi.net [64.161.163.193]
3 15 ms 32 ms 15 ms edge2-g1-0.lsan03.pbi.net [206.13.29.154]
4 15 ms 16 ms 15 ms sl-gw15-ana-6-0.sprintlink.net [144.232.192.61]
5 15 ms 16 ms 31 ms sl-bb22-ana-3-3.sprintlink.net [144.232.1.217]
6 15 ms 47 ms 47 ms sl-bb22-fw-10-1.sprintlink.net [144.232.9.250]
7 31 ms 47 ms 47 ms sl-bb23-fw-15-0.sprintlink.net [144.232.11.242]
8 63 ms 78 ms 78 ms sl-bb26-pen-10-1.sprintlink.net [144.232.8.110]
9 63 ms 78 ms 78 ms sl-bb25-pen-15-0.sprintlink.net [144.232.16.89]
10 62 ms 78 ms 78 ms sl-gw2-pen-10-0.sprintlink.net [144.232.5.14]
11 78 ms 78 ms 78 ms sl-starind-4-0.sprintlink.net [144.228.179.10]
12 78 ms 109 ms 78 ms g2-0.eth.gr-0.pitdc1.pa.stargate.net [206.210.91.230]
13 94 ms 78 ms 93 ms v1.eth.cr-3.pitdc1.pa.stargate.net [209.166.165.71]
14 93 ms 79 ms 78 ms forums.anandtech.com [216.151.100.125]
 

Nutz

Senior member
Sep 3, 2000
302
0
0


<< All of the lower OSI layers have some flavor of "routing," None of them know about what's happening below them or above them, for that matter...they only watch their own layer. >>



Hmm... I've alway been taught that the OSI layers communicate with 3 other layers: Immediately above, immediately below, and the corresponding layer on the opposite machine. Then again, I don't think that exactly relates to the context of your above post, or does it?