Wal-Mart to cut 650 jobs at optical plant near Columbus

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
If there is one bit of good news in this economic downturn, it's that state and local government is now standing up to big business and making them either hold true to their word and keep jobs in their local area as promised or return the millions in tax breaks that they were given to them to set up shop there in the first place.

Hopefully this will result in either taxpayers not funding corporate America or companies doing a better job of managing their expansion so that they don't get "too big to fail" without the ability to sustain another downturn.

Source

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) ? Economic development officials in Ohio say they will check whether Wal-Mart Stores Inc. violated terms of a tax agreement by closing an optical lab near Columbus.

Ohio gave the world's largest retailer a $1.8 million job-creation tax credit in 2001 on the condition that the company create and maintain jobs there.

Wal-Mart on Friday announced that it will close the lab, cutting 650 jobs. The lab makes eyewear for vision centers in Wal-Mart stores.

Kelly Schlissberg, a spokeswoman for the Ohio Department of Development, says the agency is reviewing its agreement with Wal-Mart to determine if the state can recoup money.

A message seeking comment was left Saturday for a Wal-Mart spokesman.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,062
1
0
these state subsidies for business have always been dumb, hopefully some states get burned (just a little though)
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
personally i think states/local goveerment should not be giving tax breaks in the first place. BUT since they did the store should either stay or if they pull out then pay for it.



but this is just going to turn into a walmart bashing thread.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: waggy
but this is just going to turn into a walmart bashing thread.

It was the only reason it was posted.

There are many companies that are going to have to return these sorts of monies. ...except those with close ties to whoever is in charge at the state houses.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
If there is one bit of good news in this economic downturn, it's that state and local government is now standing up to big business and making them either hold true to their word and keep jobs in their local area as promised or return the millions in tax breaks that they were given to them to set up shop there in the first place.

Hopefully this will result in either taxpayers not funding corporate America or companies doing a better job of managing their expansion so that they don't get "too big to fail" without the ability to sustain another downturn.

Source


I think you're probably reading way too much into this.

Cities/counties/states are all hurting for money. They're doing whatever they can to get more. If they think they can get some from Wallmart, they're gonna go for it.

After this economic mess blows over, I bet it's back to business as usual.

IMO, a better indication of the change you seek would be people getting mad when these 'contracts' are getting signed, not broken. Of course people are mad when an employer shuts down. They always are.

Fern
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
I agree with you Fern. Unfortunately, even when they are being debated, they are put forth in committees only instead of being put on a ballot or referendum. Those that are put on ballots or referendums are usually attached to something that no one wants to give up (ie a sports team, library, etc.).

But it's a start.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: waggy
personally i think states/local goveerment should not be giving tax breaks in the first place. BUT since they did the store should either stay or if they pull out then pay for it.



but this is just going to turn into a walmart bashing thread.

Ohio is doing everything in its collective power to get away from the auto and steel industry. The decline in manufacturing has hit us extremely hard and the incentives to drive employment to this state are vital.

I would wager that southern ohios unemployment rate tops 15%.

Text

While Huron County is tops with 18.3 percent and Ottawa is second with 17 percent, Pike County is third at 16.4 percent, followed by Morgan County at 16.3 percent. Then comes Adams County at 15.7 percent.

It is extremely bad down here right now. We are one of the hardest hit areas in the nation.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,681
2,431
126
Those damn tax subsidies are one of the cruelest frauds perpetrated upon the American public. They are subsidies, pure and simple-and not temporary subsidies to tide a company over in an emergency.

It is especially pathetic in this case that the people who wrote the subsidy react by saying, gee wiz, we'll have to re-read the document we drafted to see if there is anything we can do about it.

Odds are the municipality is screwed. Wal-Mart couldn't make a financial go of the plant, even with the subsidy and the deal was made in 2001. I don't think Wal-Mart was stupid enough to promise jobs forever.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
The basic issue is how concentration of wealth causes problems and inequities.

When one small group has concentrated wealth, it can play others against each other.

That's the basic issue in labor-owner relations; while in theory workers have some power of the choice where to work, in practice, without organized labor - which used to be illegal to protect owners' access to cheap labor - the bottom line was people have to eat, and wages often fell to 'just enough not to starve' and the worker's choice was just which employer with low wages to work at. The power was very much in favor of the owner against each individual, expendable, worker.

They didn't stand a chance - work for slave wages or starve was their choice - until they organized so that the owners had some larger price to pay if they wouldn't pay more.

That was the real birth of the middle class growing beyond a relatively small number.

The analogy here is that there are a lot more communities needing jobs, than there are big companies needing communities to locate their factories and other big offices.

Politicians tend to be afraid of not getting those jobs for their community - they're vulnerable to attack. And so they try very hard to get them, even making concessions and giving subsidies so large that it doesn't seem to make much sense, because they're competing with many other communities. Toss in some 'incentives' for the officials if needed and it's even worse.

That's not an easy one to solve. While like so many issues, it's easy to point out that more, smaller businesses helps with the balance of power and things work better, the efficiencies of large operations mean they're not going anywhere, probably. While some sort of 'organization' by communities would help, it's not very feasible, because among other reasons, unlike unions, it'd be difficult to deal with some communities 'going scab' and grabbing the deals, negating the effect of the collective bargaining.

Some federal laws prohibiting some of the worse abuses might help, but the compaies are more politically organized than the general public.

Another example of this effect of concentrating wealth is Wall Street's financial operations, such that the few people who are in the middle of it make many millions, where again, less concentration would lead to better balance, but lacking that, we have the situation where the finnce industry - basically overhead for the nation's economy - receives 30% of the nation's profits from all industries.

To ue Wal-Mart as an example, is it good for the nation for one company to be so large that it is a sort of 'wealth extractor' from communities across the nation, selling for low prices but costing that community more than it saved them as it feeds the tens of billions of dollars in profit at headquarters for perhaps the richest family in the world, by leaving fewer middle class businesses in those communities - is that a company strengthening the middle class, or reverting the days of poorer communities and concentrated wealth?

I'm not suggesting any simple approach here - I am just suggesting that people look for chances to take some steps to protect local businesses and keep the market competitive.

The revolution was largely fought over merchants unable to compete with Royal businesses given tax advantages (hence the Boston Tea Party over tea they had to pay taxes on but the Royal company did not). The massive buying power of big corporations allowing them t dictate to the suppliers, these subsidies by making communities compete for the big company sites, have a similar effect in creating massive competitive advantage for the big companies - with a big price.

Efforts to 'educate consumers' to 'shop local' have had limited success; efforts to 'educate voters' to vote for policies to protect local business have had occassional success.

I'm not sure what will help but we need to support the efforts to take some steps to keep the businesses serving consumer interests, not harming them through concentrated power.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: waggy
personally i think states/local goveerment should not be giving tax breaks in the first place. BUT since they did the store should either stay or if they pull out then pay for it.



but this is just going to turn into a walmart bashing thread.

Why shouldn't states have to compete for business?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: waggy
personally i think states/local goveerment should not be giving tax breaks in the first place. BUT since they did the store should either stay or if they pull out then pay for it.



but this is just going to turn into a walmart bashing thread.

Why shouldn't states have to compete for business?

Why shouldn't we outlaw unions so that workers individually have to compete for jobs?
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: waggy
personally i think states/local goveerment should not be giving tax breaks in the first place. BUT since they did the store should either stay or if they pull out then pay for it.



but this is just going to turn into a walmart bashing thread.

Why shouldn't states have to compete for business?

Why shouldn't we outlaw unions so that workers individually have to compete for jobs?

We should! Damn, when did you change sides?
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: waggy
personally i think states/local goveerment should not be giving tax breaks in the first place. BUT since they did the store should either stay or if they pull out then pay for it.



but this is just going to turn into a walmart bashing thread.

Why shouldn't states have to compete for business?

They shouldnt able to screw the taxpayer doing it though.

 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,924
45
91
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: waggy
but this is just going to turn into a walmart bashing thread.

It was the only reason it was posted.

There are many companies that are going to have to return these sorts of monies. ...except those with close ties to whoever is in charge at the state houses.

If it bothers you so much that he posted a thread about Walmart, find an article about another company in the same situation and start a new thread about it.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: waggy
personally i think states/local goveerment should not be giving tax breaks in the first place. BUT since they did the store should either stay or if they pull out then pay for it.



but this is just going to turn into a walmart bashing thread.

Why shouldn't states have to compete for business?

They shouldnt able to screw the taxpayer doing it though.

Are they? Does Walmart-Ohio not pay at least $1.8 million in taxes over this duration?

The taxpayer benefits from economic activity.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: waggy
personally i think states/local goveerment should not be giving tax breaks in the first place. BUT since they did the store should either stay or if they pull out then pay for it.



but this is just going to turn into a walmart bashing thread.

Why shouldn't states have to compete for business?

They shouldnt able to screw the taxpayer doing it though.

Are they? Does Walmart-Ohio not pay at least $1.8 million in taxes over this duration?

The taxpayer benefits from economic activity.

One walmart averages $56mil in sales. They pay plenty in taxes.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: waggy
personally i think states/local goveerment should not be giving tax breaks in the first place. BUT since they did the store should either stay or if they pull out then pay for it.



but this is just going to turn into a walmart bashing thread.

Why shouldn't states have to compete for business?

They shouldnt able to screw the taxpayer doing it though.

Are they? Does Walmart-Ohio not pay at least $1.8 million in taxes over this duration?

The taxpayer benefits from economic activity.

One walmart averages $56mil in sales. They pay plenty in taxes.

Then crying about $1.8 million over such a long time seems entirely unnecessary.
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,537
6,976
136
I think Ohio should try to get their money back as Walmart is dispersing a bunch of those positions to other States.

What's sad is those lab jobs that are being lost is being replaced in-State with non-lab jobs at the retail outlets. Less pay/benefits maybe?

I wonder if this is another pre-emptive move by Walmart to squash an attempt by their employees to unionize. Just thinking out loud.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: waggy
but this is just going to turn into a walmart bashing thread.

It was the only reason it was posted.

There are many companies that are going to have to return these sorts of monies. ...except those with close ties to whoever is in charge at the state houses.

If it bothers you so much that he posted a thread about Walmart, find an article about another company in the same situation and start a new thread about it.

It doesn't take much searching to find others that are in the same position as walmart. Hell, here in Iowa there are companies that got state money and there is talk of taking it back from them since they didn't follow through with the jobs. This is NOT a walmart thing but the only reason it makes it here is because people have this irrational hatred for Walmart.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
My sympathy for the 650 who lost their jobs:(

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Hopefully this will result in either taxpayers not funding corporate America

I would love to see none of my tax dollars go to GM, Chrysler, AIG and TARP.:thumbsup:

Ohio gave the world's largest retailer a $1.8 million job-creation tax credit in 2001 on the condition that the company create and maintain jobs there.
One cannot expect it to remain open forever, did the deal have a time limit associated with it?

Originally posted by: Craig234
Why shouldn't we outlaw unions so that workers individually have to compete for jobs?
That would be a bit extreme, unions have their purpose. Right to work laws are a nice compromise to avoid extremes.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,924
45
91
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: waggy
but this is just going to turn into a walmart bashing thread.

It was the only reason it was posted.

There are many companies that are going to have to return these sorts of monies. ...except those with close ties to whoever is in charge at the state houses.

If it bothers you so much that he posted a thread about Walmart, find an article about another company in the same situation and start a new thread about it.

It doesn't take much searching to find others that are in the same position as walmart. Hell, here in Iowa there are companies that got state money and there is talk of taking it back from them since they didn't follow through with the jobs. This is NOT a walmart thing but the only reason it makes it here is because people have this irrational hatred for Walmart.

Strange, pretty much all of the discussion in this thread is about tax breaks to attract businesses in general. No one is bashing Walmart. It looks like the only people who care that the article in the OP is about Walmart are you and waggy. I think these subsidies are a great topic of discussion right now considering that their intention is job creation, and currently jobs are disappearing. It's unfortunate that you can't see past Walmart to recognize this as a good topic for discussion.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,681
2,431
126
Simply put, using tax breaks as incentives for attracting businesses favors large businesses over those of us who already operate small, established locally based businesses. The other taxpayers (including competing businesses) must pay more in taxes to make up the softfall created by the giveaways to the biggies. These increased costs help drive out the locally owned competition.

Both my wife and I own and operate our own businesses-neither has ever been offered or received any sort of kickback from government. Our competitors though (and especially in her field) do have this sort of unfair advantage.

Winnar, I'm astonished at your responses in this thread. These kickbacks/subsidies are not a matter of "governments competing for business" - they are subsidies, pure and simple. And subsidies that kill local businesses in favor of the big boys.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Acanthus

One walmart averages $56mil in sales. They pay plenty in taxes.

Then crying about $1.8 million over such a long time seems entirely unnecessary.

I see Winnar is dodging my question.

On this issue:

5. Wal-Mart routinely makes health care unavailable or unaffordable for its employees.

Wal-Mart?s company health insurance is too expensive or practically impossible to get for many of its employees. Just over 40 percent of Wal-Mart employees have insurance through the company plan, far fewer than the 66 percent that is typical of a firm the size of Wal-Mart. There are a few causes for this: classifying employees as ?part-time,? increasing the waiting period for eligibility, and refusing to allow employees to extend coverage to spouses and children. The end result of this is that the public is forced to pick up the slack with our tax dollars. According to a study put out by the Institute for Labor and Employment at the University of California-Berkeley, Wal-Mart employees received $20.5 million in public health care assistance in California alone. And Wal-Mart is more than happy to keep this subsidy gravy train going. Knowing that its employees can?t afford the company health plan, or because they just refuse to make it available to employees, Wal-Mart encourages employees to apply for public assistance programs like Medicaid that are meant to be last resort safety net options, while Wal-Mart continues to bilk American taxpayers for millions in health care costs.

6. Wal-Mart regularly drains public coffers at all levels of government.

The government subsidization of health care for Wal-Mart employees is just the tip of the iceberg. Wal-Mart routinely uses taxpayer money to finance its never-ending corporate growth. A report commissioned by the House Committee on Education and Welfare estimates that a two hundred person Wal-Mart store costs federal taxpayers approximately $420,750 a year, or $2,103 per employee. These costs include:

-$36,000 a year for free and reduced cost school lunches,
-$42,000 for Section 8 housing assistance,
-$125,000 for low-income family tax credits and deductions,
-$100,000 for additional Title I expenses,
-$108,000 for state children?s health insurance expenses, and
-$9,750 for low income energy assistance

State and local governments also lose when Wal-Mart comes to town. A study commissioned by the Los Angeles City Council in 2003 found that Wal-Mart is a net loss for the communities it moves into. An influx of ?big box retailers? such as Wal-Mart was estimated to cost an additional $9 million in state health care costs and a loss in pensions and retirement benefits so large that the increase in public assistance necessary to make up the shortfall could not even be covered by increased sales and property taxes.

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: waggy
but this is just going to turn into a walmart bashing thread.

It was the only reason it was posted.

There are many companies that are going to have to return these sorts of monies. ...except those with close ties to whoever is in charge at the state houses.

If it bothers you so much that he posted a thread about Walmart, find an article about another company in the same situation and start a new thread about it.

It doesn't take much searching to find others that are in the same position as walmart. Hell, here in Iowa there are companies that got state money and there is talk of taking it back from them since they didn't follow through with the jobs. This is NOT a walmart thing but the only reason it makes it here is because people have this irrational hatred for Walmart.

Strange, pretty much all of the discussion in this thread is about tax breaks to attract businesses in general. No one is bashing Walmart. It looks like the only people who care that the article in the OP is about Walmart are you and waggy. I think these subsidies are a great topic of discussion right now considering that their intention is job creation, and currently jobs are disappearing. It's unfortunate that you can't see past Walmart to recognize this as a good topic for discussion.

:roll: It would be a good discussion if people actually wanted to discuss that. Myself and waggy pointing out why this was even brought up by the OP likely saved this thread from being yet another walmart bashing thread - save craig234's irrational(liberal) whining about walmart.