Voting reform panel

[ShadesOfGrey]

WOW

I didn't think I'd see that day that Mr.shamelection would actually support some REAL voting reform like requiring a photo ID to vote.

BTW, yes, I have no problem with FREE IDs - the issue here is that people must have and show one at the polling place.

 

[Engineer]

I think that we do need some sort of ID. I also like the paper trail from the electronic voting machines.

 

[Taggart]

You have to show ID to buy liquor, why not vote?

 

[zendari]

Hmm, is Carter suggesting the end of democracy?

Wasn't he governor of Georgia before? What a coincidence!

 

[CanOWorms]

Critics suggested that having to acquire the ID cards in order to vote could be an obstacle for minorities, the poor and older Americans and might intimidate some people.

How does that work?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Taggart
You have to show ID to buy liquor, why not vote?

Buying booze isn't a fundamental right of our society...

I'm in favor of some sort of ID check, as long as there is no obstacle at all to getting an ID. You can't demand everyone have a driver's license, but if every single person got a free state ID...then I don't see a problem. But beyond that, it is almost certainly illegal to require ID, it amounts to a poll tax.

 

[Hacp]

NVM!

 

[ntdz]

Carter is an idiot.

 

[Jhhnn]

One of the problems for folks at the bottom of the heap is that they may have warrants out for their arrest for past minor infractions, often issued on the basis of "failure to appear" in court. Depending on the State, there can be very long periods for the statute of limitations to kick in... Nothing that would prohibit them from voting, but sufficient to have them immediately arrested if they show up to obtain ID...

While I agree that they should take care of such matters in a timely fashion, I don't agree that they should fundamentally be prevented from voting because of them... which is what an ID requirement would do... unless the practice of arresting minor miscreants when they appear to obtain ID is curtailed...

This can also be an unnecessary burden on Seniors and handicapped, so the state should be able to go to them, rather than vice-versa...

I also think that having ID should serve as voter registration in and of itself- even if you haven't voted in 20 years, you should be able to walk into your polling place and do so on the strength of such ID alone... and that the right to do so should travel with all citizens from state to state... if more is to be required of voters, then they should get something in return, something like universal lifetime registration...

 

[ShadesOfGrey]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
One of the problems for folks at the bottom of the heap is that they may have warrants out for their arrest for past minor infractions, often issued on the basis of "failure to appear" in court. Depending on the State, there can be very long periods for the statute of limitations to kick in... Nothing that would prohibit them from voting, but sufficient to have them immediately arrested if they show up to obtain ID...

Then they should have appeared when scheduled - no?

While I agree that they should take care of such matters in a timely fashion, I don't agree that they should fundamentally be prevented from voting because of them... which is what an ID requirement would do... unless the practice of arresting minor miscreants when they appear to obtain ID is curtailed...

A person who fails to appear and has a warrant should not be given a free pass just to give you a warm and fuzzy feeling. People make choices in life - if you choose not to appear and a warrant is issued - you can and will be arrested no matter what you are attempting to do

This can also be an unnecessary burden on Seniors and handicapped, so the state should be able to go to them, rather than vice-versa...

Georgia was stating that they would go to the people

I also think that having ID should serve as voter registration in and of itself- even if you haven't voted in 20 years, you should be able to walk into your polling place and do so on the strength of such ID alone... and that the right to do so should travel with all citizens from state to state... if more is to be required of voters, then they should get something in return, something like universal lifetime registration...

Voting is a conscious choice and is quite easy for those that want to be involved to register. Rounding up anyone with an ID on the day the polls open isn't what we need(although it seems to be a tactic in certain districts). You need to register to vote - period. Felons who have forfeited their right to vote may still have an ID. You also need current voter rolls so as to prevent fraud - otherwise without a local list - people could vote anywhere and multiple times - but you knew that.

 

[Jhhnn]

So, uhh, now the penalty for failure to appear is denial of the right to vote, Shades of Grey? Or do you willfully fail to see that?

As for the whole bit about needing to have local rolls, I won't argue- they can easily be computer sorted from the ID files, rendering the need for separate files and lists entirely moot. Picture ID assures the poll workers that the voter is who they claim to be, and the whole bit about felons voting is entirely disingenuous, as well- that's not universal, state to state, nor is it a difficult thing to make that part of the database, anyway... Felons in Maine and Massachussetts vote absentee from prison, and it doesn't seem to have caused the collapse of civilization in those regions...

Part of the problem with our version of democracy is that participation is not as strong as it should be, leading to a lack of concensus, of preceived legitimacy wrt our elected officials. If computers are supposed to make our lives easier, then it seems that we should actually use them to accomplish that, particularly when it comes to having more participation in the electoral process.

Of course, a variety of means have been used to shape the vote in the past, from literacy tests to poll taxes to purging alleged felons from the rolls to artificially created 7 hour lines in some Ohio precincts, and a lot of other stuff, too. The question is whether or not picture ID will be used in such a fashion, or whether it will be used to expand the voting base while increasing legitimacy... but you knew that.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Actually Carter made the ststement the the ID in it's form of costing the recipient was wrong, but Baker Type III forced the issue.
Carter agrees on the need to reform but opposes making the voter pay the 'Poll Tax' that the GOP want's to invoke.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
So, uhh, now the penalty for failure to appear is denial of the right to vote, Shades of Grey? Or do you willfully fail to see that?

As for the whole bit about needing to have local rolls, I won't argue- they can easily be computer sorted from the ID files, rendering the need for separate files and lists entirely moot. Picture ID assures the poll workers that the voter is who they claim to be, and the whole bit about felons voting is entirely disingenuous, as well- that's not universal, state to state, nor is it a difficult thing to make that part of the database, anyway... Felons in Maine and Massachussetts vote absentee from prison, and it doesn't seem to have caused the collapse of civilization in those regions...

Felons are denied/allowed a right to vote based on the state they live in.

When one chooses to NOT obey the law, then they are also accepting the consequences there of.

People can be convicted in absense; that is what should happen to those that have failed to appear in court as they originally promised. The either jumped bail or broke their committment to the public.

Now if they want to vote and are innocent, then get to court and prove it.
Otherwise, they have shown they are not willing to live within societies laws, therefore why should they be allowed the opportunity to change the laws.

 

[ShadesOfGrey]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
So, uhh, now the penalty for failure to appear is denial of the right to vote, Shades of Grey? Or do you willfully fail to see that?

As for the whole bit about needing to have local rolls, I won't argue- they can easily be computer sorted from the ID files, rendering the need for separate files and lists entirely moot. Picture ID assures the poll workers that the voter is who they claim to be, and the whole bit about felons voting is entirely disingenuous, as well- that's not universal, state to state, nor is it a difficult thing to make that part of the database, anyway... Felons in Maine and Massachussetts vote absentee from prison, and it doesn't seem to have caused the collapse of civilization in those regions...

Felons are denied/allowed a right to vote based on the state they live in.

When one chooses to NOT obey the law, then they are also accepting the consequences there of.

People can be convicted in absense; that is what should happen to those that have failed to appear in court as they originally promised. The either jumped bail or broke their committment to the public.

Now if they want to vote and are innocent, then get to court and prove it.
Otherwise, they have shown they are not willing to live within societies laws, therefore why should they be allowed the opportunity to change the laws.

I agree except for your wording about going to court. They don't have to prove innocence - the state/whatever has to prove guilt. However, what Jhhnn doesn't seem to understand is that when people make the choice not to appear, it does not mean they are free from capture if they go get an ID of ANY kind or take part in other government functions. So no, your insinuation that a failure to appear means a person can't vote or is being denied the right to vote is patently absurd.

CaptnKirk - no one is invoking a poll tax. That sort of "reasoning" or thinking is nothing more than a misrepresentation of the intent or reality of the situation. No doubt there are some who want to percieve it that way but as Georgia has stated -they are willing to go the extra mile to make it available for everyone.

 

[Todd33]

Baker, the guy flown in on Enron's private jet to work for Bush in Florida. Great choice.

I don't think anyone has an issue with IDs, it's the hoops you have to jump through to get one. If they are easy to get, then how is it any harder to abuse? You have to be registered to vote, how many people go down and vote with someone elses name and address?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Critics suggested that having to acquire the ID cards in order to vote could be an obstacle for minorities, the poor and older Americans and might intimidate some people.

How does that work?

Who knows, typical fear mongering.

The way I see it, if you are too lazy to get a "free" id then you shouldnt be allowed to vote anyways.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
One of the problems for folks at the bottom of the heap is that they may have warrants out for their arrest for past minor infractions, often issued on the basis of "failure to appear" in court. Depending on the State, there can be very long periods for the statute of limitations to kick in... Nothing that would prohibit them from voting, but sufficient to have them immediately arrested if they show up to obtain ID...

While I agree that they should take care of such matters in a timely fashion, I don't agree that they should fundamentally be prevented from voting because of them... which is what an ID requirement would do... unless the practice of arresting minor miscreants when they appear to obtain ID is curtailed...

Here is a novel idea, dont run from the law?

Little sympathy for people who have a warrant out for their arrest. Not a suitable excuse to block the use of an ID for verification.

 

[Genx87]

So, uhh, now the penalty for failure to appear is denial of the right to vote, Shades of Grey? Or do you willfully fail to see that?

Do you know for a fact they wont be able to vote? Let them vote then haul them off to jail.

 

[EatSpam]

So where do illegal aliens pick up their IDs?

 

[Jhhnn]

I think that the answer is simply to make it clear to people that they won't be busted for minor past infractions when they show up to obtain ID. This already varies tremendously by locality, anyway, and certainly wouldn't encourage scofflaw behavior in the slightest. In many localities, a person can't simply pay the fine if they've failed to appear in the past- they have to appear in court, and can only get in front of a judge from jail... or with the help of an attorney, which they obviously can't afford in the first place. Nice catch-22.

Picture ID will effectively prevent persons casting more than one vote w/o any additional constraints, anyway. They can't claim to be somebody else because of the photo, and they can't vote in more than one location because of the record keeping... can't claim to be alive when you're dead, either, except when applying for an absentee ballot...

I really have no problem with the whole concept of needing picture ID to vote, but the devil is in the details, and I'm very much opposed to using such a requirement in a way that won't actually encourage and increase voting.

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: Genx87

So, uhh, now the penalty for failure to appear is denial of the right to vote, Shades of Grey? Or do you willfully fail to see that?

Do you know for a fact they wont be able to vote? Let them vote then haul them off to jail.

Or they can vote from jail, if not convicted of a felony.

 

[ShadesOfGrey]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
I think that the answer is simply to make it clear to people that they won't be busted for minor past infractions when they show up to obtain ID.

If they have a failure to appear warrant, there is nothing "past" about the infraction. If a person shows up to a government facility looking to use the government(get ID) then there is NO reason they shouldn't be picked up on the spot.

 

[wiin]

Rainsford:

Buying booze isn't a fundamental right of our society...

I'm in favor of some sort of ID check, as long as there is no obstacle at all to getting an ID. You can't demand everyone have a driver's license, but if every single person got a free state ID...then I don't see a problem. But beyond that, it is almost certainly illegal to require ID, it amounts to a poll tax.

Hahahahahahahahaha. Now i've heard it all.

 

[MadRat]

My state already requires a picture ID at the polls and I see no problems that has incurred. Of course our 3 electoral votes have always been Republican somehow when people seem to overwhelmingly talk democrat. Never understood it.

 

[Czar]

Whats wrong with this?

The polling site has a cencus list. Everyone who comes to votes must show a picture id, drivers license, credit card, passport. The cencus list is checked as this person has voted.

Everyone leaves happy.