Voter suppression - an example

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Rachel Maddow did a very good segment giving an overview of some of the recent events with North Carolina's voter suppression efforts.

It gives useful historical background - how Republicans haven't had control of the government since 1870, the importance of the campaign finance changes allowing money in elections and how since that one wealthy Republican activist has spent millions - 75% of all outside money groups' donations in the state - having a huge effect, and leading to NC having super majorities in both houses and the governor's office.

Having gotten that power, they're trying to keep it by passing various measures that restrict voting primarily by blacks, and also young people, who vote democratic.

It reviews some of these measures that are being piloted for statewide implementation.

It's an American value to support people voting and their right to vote; that elections should be won on merit and not preventing the other side from voting.

Unfortunately, it seems that value is not holding up well as Republicans are finding suppression a very tempting way to try to get power.

It also touches on Gerrymandering, where a majority of North Carolinans voted for Democrats for Congress, yet of 13 seats, nine went to Republicans.

Apparently North Carolinians haven't voted for a Democrat for president since Carter, until they voted for Obama narrowly in 2008. The sorts of changes being made are well above that margin of victory. A lot of races are narrowly decided where these suppression measures swing the race.

This is after North Carolina had been making great progresson voting - going from 3rd lowest turnout in the nation to 11th highest. Not that's being reversed.

This is a good piece for getting some specifics on what this sort of unamerican power grab looks like. 20 minutes long.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26315908/#52823877

Part 2, 6 minutes, shows a measure being enacted to block voting in a Democratic county:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26315908/#52823962

In that country, recently, Republicans closed voting on a campus - the largest employer - to move three precincts into one in a much more remote location, with over 9,000 voters for one precinct, several times the amount guidelines allow, with 35 parking places and no easy access otherwise.

This was done with a pretense of cost-cutting needs. In a recent meeting of the governing body - all of the voting rights boards were recently taken over by Republicans - the one remaining Democrat on the board asked the relevant official at the meeting how much closing the voting on campus would save. Nothing was the answer.

The minutes for the meeting showed that; a video of the meeting went on youtube with tens of thousands of views. So the Republicans ordered the minutes to be redone to be 'more concise', but they still had that exchange. So the Republicans then re-wrote the minutes of the meeting to remove the exchange, so there's no record of their cost-cutting pretense being exposed. At a statewide meeting of the voting boards, the Republican in charge for the state said, 'let's not have any more of our meetings on youtube'.

There's a problem here, between money in elections, and officials who are willing and determined to use voter suppression as a weapon of war for their party to win.

These measures - gerrymandering, money, suppression - combine to let a relatively small percent of the people control the government, denying fair representation.

It should not be a surprised that the figure who donated the large majority of money to 'buy' the elections is a close partner with the Koch brothers, named Art Pope:

http://www.artpopeexposed.com/

The New Yorker has an article on the money in North Carolina elections, "State for Sale":

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/10/10/111010fa_fact_mayer

This isn't exactly new in American history for political factions to win elections by suppressing votes. But it's a battle that had appeared to have been won since the 1960's.

It's important for Americans to understand the measures being taken - to get power as a minority with these measures, to block the majority when they're in the minority as they do with the record setting filibusters in the Senate, the obstructionist agenda, the threats not to pay our bills as 'leverage' to make demands they can't win in the legislative process, etc.

Unfortunately, there are no clear solutions. Fixing the Supreme Court's terrible ruling on money in elections needs a constitutional amendment very hard to get passed. Money in politics works - and isn't going away any time soon. While suppressing votes, gerrymandering and other measures are unamerican, they're working nicely.

One additional factor contributing is the poliarization - and the 'bubble' for citizens.

A recent poll found that nearly all Democrats would blame Republicans for a government shutdown if it happens; but nearly all Republicans would blame the Democrats.

Given that the cause of the shutdown would be Republicans using the paying of our bills as blackmail to make demands such as not funding the Affordable Care Act, it's pretty clear it'd be Republicans who were to blame for the shutdown, rather than Obama for not giving in to the blackmail. But with Republican voters blamig Democrats, Republicans have no incentive not to do it.

This polarization seems to be leading a lot of Republican voters not to stand up for American value son voting but instead to support the suppression because it helps them.

It's a challenge what to do. One measure is that Eric Holder has sued the state of Texas for intentional racially-targetted voting suppression, and he's asked to do it for NC.

But public outrage is muted by the money, and by the power. Republicans increased their lead in NC in 2012.

These measures threaten democracy. Another measure widely discussed is for Republican states to stop awarding electoral votes to the winner of the state, and instead award them by congressional district - for one reason, to take advantage of their gerrymandering, such as that 9=9 of 13 seat result in North Carolina. If they did that one thing in 2012, Romney would have won despite losing the popular vote by over 5 million votes.

I don't think most Americans want the country to have government bought by the highest bidder, and for voter suppression to be widely used to win elections.

But it's not clear they can stop it - or that many Republican want to if it helps them.

The bad result following this is that the anger becomes anti-government - which plays into the hands of the wealthy who are opposed to this 'democracy of the people' thing.

The government - when democracy is working - gives 'power to the people' to counter that of wealth. Many citizens are coming to want to give away that power.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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I guess the Constitution of NC will have to be changed. As for VA, the Republicans could've done that but they didn't because they wanted to stay in power through representative democracy.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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Voters elected the Republicans. They got what the voted for.

Sounds like an echo of Wisconsin and Pa.

Dems lose their control and start to complain that life is not fair

When the Justice Department steps in, then there is a concern. Otherwise it is partisan politics determine by the voters
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
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Voters elected the Republicans. They got what the voted for.

Sounds like an echo of Wisconsin and Pa.

Dems lose their control and start to complain that life is not fair

When the Justice Department steps in, then there is a concern. Otherwise it is partisan politics determine by the voters

They complain it's not fair because it is not fair. Look at it without caring about the party that is in, or out of power simply look at what these people are doing.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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They complain it's not fair because it is not fair. Look at it without caring about the party that is in, or out of power simply look at what these people are doing.

Majority of complaints come from outside the state.

A State is composed of districts with heavy concentration of voters in tbe urban areas.
With an over concentration of voters in one district, there is an under concentration in others. To high of an over concentration is notable to be properly counter balanced. Even counterbalance will not happen. No one that is directly affected.

It is those that feel there should be a perfect representations that complain the loufedt
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,973
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1-6-black-panther-voter-intimidation.jpg
1-6-black-panther-voter-intimidation.jpg
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Everywhere I go they expect an ID. I guess I am being discriminated against. You cant get into the whitehouse without an ID. That must be discrimination. Cant register for school without an ID I guess that is discrimination. Cant get License without 3 different documents proving your existence. Cant purchase a car or a house without proof of who you are. Cant cash a check without an ID. Just seems like common sense. No ID with a picture and your correct address and you cant purchase a firearm. Dont give me this right to vote bullshit.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Eaglekeeper: you don't understand anything about fair elections, going by your post.

All you can offer is, 'one side won, so that proves the election was fair'.

If it was your side that won, then all issues raised about the eelction are nothing but sour grapes - you don't need to ask any questions.

Presumably, if your side loses because of an unfair election, you will scream bloody murder about the unfairness. You're posting as a partisan with no idea of fairness.

Did you watch the video I linked? It's pretty clear you didn't, since your post has things the video answers.

Since you have no interest in the issues and are only wantig to blindly support your side winning no matter how unfairly they do it, there's not much to discuss with you.

Paul98: good answer.

Eaglekeeper #2: your post isn't really even English. I can't make sense of it. But you appear to be blindly defending gerrymandering, and ignoring the other issues.

You say 'urban voters are concentrated' like it's an explanation of the issue, and there's no such thing as gerrymandering.

The results that a MAJORITY of voters voting Democratic, but 9 of 13 seats going to Republicans, show a very clear problem - one which you just ignore.

highland: your post isn't any quality for discussion. It's an ambarrassment for you.

How many votes were prevented by the picture you posted? How many elected officials were involved in doing anything wrong?

I showed very clear anti-demcoratic measures that threaten to violate democracy very badly, including preventing or nullifying hundreds of thousands of votes.

You showed nothing, but a race-baiting picture without any facts or substance.

piasabird: FACT: a large number of voters lack ID, and yet they have the right to vote. The ONLY reason to try to deny them the right is the party most are in.

It's nothing but a naked attempt to deny them their right to vote by taking advantage of the circumstance they don't have ID.

You mention all these students who 'have to have ID' - funny, a large number do NOT have idea the state will now accept for voting - like an out of state driver's license - and the law now specifically refuses to accept their student ID, for no reason other than again to disenfranchise Democratic voters.

Republicans are trying to deny people their right to vote, and are lying about it with a phony pretense.

There's a reason Republican Colin Powell this week gave a speech - with the governor of NC there - attacking NC Republicans' actions as described in this thread.

You're factually wrong - large numbers who do not 'live under a rock' do not have ID the state will accept for voting. And there's one reason: trying to steal elections.
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,464
2
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Craig: Can you link to one example of a gerrymandering-elimination bill passed by the Democratic party while they are the majority party?

It seems they only have a problem with gerrymandering when they are the minority party.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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Craig: Can you link to one example of a gerrymandering-elimination bill passed by the Democratic party while they are the majority party?

It seems they only have a problem with gerrymandering when they are the minority party.

I'm not entirely sure that this qualifies, since a proposition was involved. But it's a fairly prominent example of a blue state taking action against gerrymandering that could potentially harm the Democrats.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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If the state was under control at the time of the census by one party; that party redesigns districts per Federal law. (a few states have exceptions)

Now over the next 10 years; the population shifting causes a realignment.

After 10 years; the realignment allows the opposing party to start to redraw districts.

The other party became in "power" because the voters of a state changed to favor the opposing party locally.

Is that your problem; the fact that voters change their positions or that voters change the percentage within districts

If voters in 3 districts (to keep the numbers simple) total 300. But instead of an even split you have 180 for Party A and 120 for party B.

Ideally there would then be 60 voters (A) vs 40 voters (B) in each district and Party A will sweep every time.

But in the real world (ie what the losers dislike) you have District 1 that has 80 for Party A and 20 for Party B. District 2 and 3 now have between them 100 for Party B and 80 for Party B. It end up that District 2 and 3 go for Party B.

Now Party B gets 2 of 3 districts because of the way politics operate and ideology. Party A has become a victim of their previous success in consolidating their core constituency.

Nice set of checks and balances to prevent tyranny of the majority of the minority.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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I'm not entirely sure that this qualifies, since a proposition was involved. But it's a fairly prominent example of a blue state taking action against gerrymandering that could potentially harm the Democrats.

The people overrode the state politicians.

No state politician group will freely give up its control of their future.
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,464
2
0
I'm not entirely sure that this qualifies, since a proposition was involved. But it's a fairly prominent example of a blue state taking action against gerrymandering that could potentially harm the Democrats.

People pass propositions, not politicians. If they had to resort to a proposition to eliminate gerrymandering, that further reinforces my point.
 

Wardawg1001

Senior member
Sep 4, 2008
653
1
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piasabird: FACT: a large number of voters lack ID, and yet they have the right to vote. The ONLY reason to try to deny them the right is the party most are in.

It's nothing but a naked attempt to deny them their right to vote by taking advantage of the circumstance they don't have ID.

I'm quite uneducated on this topic. What is standing in the way of your average citizen obtaining a drivers license (or other commonly accepted forms of ID)?
 
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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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The people were in charge of the process, but these were the same people who put the Democrats solidly in control of state government. As such, they went against their own political interests in favor of fairness by voting to switch to a neutral means of redistricting.

Are the right-wingers who dominate red states going to ever do anything like this? I won't hold my breath.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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The people were in charge of the process, but these were the same people who put the Democrats solidly in control of state government. As such, they went against their own political interests in favor of fairness by voting to switch to a neutral means of redistricting.

Are the right-wingers who dominate red states going to ever do anything like this? I won't hold my breath.

Ca people got tired of the way the state politicians were doing the job of redistricting.

Apparently most other states, red or blue are satisfied

It is not color of the state, but the results that the people look at.

Craig has blown a gasket over PA multiple times because the party vote does not represent the representation. That is the way tbe people there prefer it. Checks and balances vs one party running roughshod over the other
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,522
17,030
136
Craig: Can you link to one example of a gerrymandering-elimination bill passed by the Democratic party while they are the majority party?

It seems they only have a problem with gerrymandering when they are the minority party.

So then it's ok because the otherside did it? That's awesome logic when dealing with democracy. /s

Ca people got tired of the way the state politicians were doing the job of redistricting.

Apparently most other states, red or blue are satisfied

It is not color oftge state, but the results that the people look at.

Craig has blown a gasket over PA multiple times because the party vote does not represent the representation. That is the way tbe people there prefer it. Checks and balances vs one party running roughshod over the other

What part of, "more people voted for democrats" don't you understand? The people didn't vote for it, that's the fucking point!

The republicans are trying to turn three districts into one, why? No money will be saved. The new precinct is inadequate to handle all the voters, is that a form of government inefficiency that you approve of? Is it your opinion that 10 people's voices should be equal to one persons voice just because the 10 people all live close to each other?
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,464
2
0
So then it's ok because the otherside did it? That's awesome logic when dealing with democracy. /s



What part of, "more people voted for democrats" don't you understand? The people didn't vote for it, that's the fucking point!

The republicans are trying to turn three districts into one, why? No money will be saved. The new precinct is inadequate to handle all the voters, is that a form of government inefficiency that you approve of? Is it your opinion that 10 people's voices should be equal to one persons voice just because the 10 people all live close to each other?

Actions speak louder than words.

It seems democrats only have issues with several things when they aren't in power: gerrymandering, domestic spying, holding prisoners in an illegal prison indefinitely.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,522
17,030
136
Actions speak louder than words.

It seems democrats only have issues with several things when they aren't in power: gerrymandering, domestic spying, holding prisoners in an illegal prison indefinitely.

Only in your bubble.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
Ca people got tired of the way the state politicians were doing the job of redistricting.

Apparently most other states, red or blue are satisfied

It is not color oftge state, but the results that the people look at.

Yes, I'm sure that it's just a coincidence that these things are all happening in red states.

Craig has blown a gasket over PA multiple times because the party vote does not represent the representation. That is the way tbe people there prefer it. Checks and balances vs one party running roughshod over the other

These comments are completely unreasonable. They simply do not correlate in any way to the actual stories presented.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Interesting legal note: In 2004, the Supreme Court, on the usual 5-4 divide, had the right-wing take away the right of citizens to sue over gerrymandering.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Actually, California passed the law against redistricting largely because a coalition could be formed between Republicans, who saw it as a chance to gain by moving it from the 2/3 of the state who are Democrats to a 50-50 split on the new commission, and the Democrats who were willing to be 'more than fair' by eliminating their own advantage.

So, for example both then-Governor Republican Schwarazeneggar and the man he replaced, former Governor Democrat Gray Davis, endorsed the legislation.

Funny part 2 of the story: as soon as the new commission created the new districts, Republicans sued the commission because they wanted them even more in their favor.

They lost.

My concern over the new commission is that if only Democratic states are 'fair', and Republican states are gerrymandered, that creates an unfair result nationally.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Eaglekeeper, you seem to just be making up nonsense. Have you watched the videos?

Terrymathews, both parties are guilty of gerrymandering. But what you are ignoring is that Republicans are far worse about it - not to mention the other things I raised, which they seem to do pretty exlusively. Where are the Democrats passing measures to prevent mass numbers of Republicans from voting, reduce voting hours and locations etc.?

The issue boils down to this: the more people who vote the better Democrats do.

That happens to make Democratic interests align with the American interest, the democracy interest, that more people voting is better.

It takes that non-partisan American principle that more people voting is better and Republicans make it a partisan issue, with them against voting, for their own gain.

Democrats may or may not be 'better people' - we can't tell because their interests happen to align with democracy's interests. But we do know that Republicans are attacking democracy for their own interest - putting the interests of democracy below the interest of grabbing power for themselves. That violation of democracy makes them not trustable with American values - win at any cost is the principle they're following.

I'd like to say that democracy will defeat this threat - but two facts, extreme concentration of wealth and the allowance of unlimited money in elections - question it.

Nationally, more voters voted for Democrats for the House than for Republicans, but Republicans got a good-sized majority, giving them the power to block not only the Democrats' political agenda, but the people's agenda, to the extent that the majority of voters represent the people - and that's not even counting the voter suppression effects. A minority gaining power over the majority is close to definition non-democracy. It's the same result as any other election fraud, like balllot stuffing.

The question is, do the people in the minority party doing these things oppose it because they support democracy, or support it to 'win at any cost'?

We have our answer from at least one Republican here.