Voter ID: Joy... where American conservatives go, British conservatives follow

[mikeymikec]

go cash a check, fly on a plane, get a library card, rent a car, buy a gun/ammo, get a fishing license, buy some otc meds, and this is just in the last year or 2 for me

In the UK:

Presenting ID to put money in an account is not necessary.
Flying purely internally in the UK is pretty unusual given how small it is. I imagine that they would require a passport because they'd likely subject it to the same workflow as they would international travel.
Library card: No idea. A quick google suggests showing something with your name and address on will do.
Rent a car: Drivers licence.
Buy a gun: Requires a firearms licence.
Fishing licence: No ID proof necessary, just fill in your details.
OTC meds: No ID needed.

Having said this, I fail to see the connection between any of these points and requiring photo ID for voting.

 

[Vic]

well then why not show it at the polling place?

That depends on the laws of the state where the voting is taking place. The federal govt has no Constitutional jurisdiction over this issue. But generally speaking, most states do have more than reasonable safeguards at the polling places, including checking ID's, voter registration cards, or comparing ballot signatures against registration.

And yaknow the only reasons Trump brings this issue up are to 1) discourage voter turnout, and 2) try to whip Republicans into a "it was rigged!" frenzy in case he loses.

But anyway, I will reiterate, except to ensure that each citizen's right to vote is protected, the federal govt has no Constitutional jurisdiction over this issue. And as voter ID does not protect a citizen's right to vote, the federal govt has no jurisdiction.

 

[Vic]

In the UK:

Presenting ID to put money in an account is not necessary.
Flying purely internally in the UK is pretty unusual given how small it is. I imagine that they would require a passport because they'd likely subject it to the same workflow as they would international travel.
Library card: No idea. A quick google suggests showing something with your name and address on will do.
Rent a car: Drivers licence.
Buy a gun: Requires a firearms licence.
Fishing licence: No ID proof necessary, just fill in your details.
OTC meds: No ID needed.

Having said this, I fail to see the connection between any of these points and requiring photo ID for voting.

The conservative agenda, at least in America, is to make voting as difficult for the voters as possible. They want to force voters to have to vote in polling places that open only in the middle of the week and only during working hours, are not close to their homes or workplaces, and where voters are forced to wait in long lines due to convoluted security procedures, and then the voters are given as little time as possible to actually review the ballot and make their voting decisions.
All of this is by design.

 

[mdram]

That depends on the laws of the state where the voting is taking place. The federal govt has no Constitutional jurisdiction over this issue. But generally speaking, most states do have more than reasonable safeguards at the polling places, including checking ID's, voter registration cards, or comparing ballot signatures against registration.

And yaknow the only reasons Trump brings this issue up are to 1) discourage voter turnout, and 2) try to whip Republicans into a "it was rigged!" frenzy in case he loses.

But anyway, I will reiterate, except to ensure that each citizen's right to vote is protected, the federal govt has no Constitutional jurisdiction over this issue. And as voter ID does not protect a citizen's right to vote, the federal govt has no jurisdiction.

i have never been asked for a voter id card, id to vote
when i offered an id, they shooed it away
they just ask for a name
you could go vote as me

 

[mdram]

In the UK:

Presenting ID to put money in an account is not necessary.
Flying purely internally in the UK is pretty unusual given how small it is. I imagine that they would require a passport because they'd likely subject it to the same workflow as they would international travel.
Library card: No idea. A quick google suggests showing something with your name and address on will do.
Rent a car: Drivers licence.
Buy a gun: Requires a firearms licence.
Fishing licence: No ID proof necessary, just fill in your details.
OTC meds: No ID needed.

Having said this, I fail to see the connection between any of these points and requiring photo ID for voting.

becuase those are small everyday things people do
not something important like voting
if you need to prove who you are for those tasks, why not voting

 

[Vic]

i have never been asked for a voter id card, id to vote
when i offered an id, they shooed it away
they just ask for a name
you could go vote as me

If you don't like that, then you should write a letter to your representative in the Statehouse.

 

[Vic]

becuase those are small everyday things people do
not something important like voting
if you need to prove who you are for those tasks, why not voting

Because voting is a Constitutional right, and because any onerous obstacle to voting, such as a required payment or tax to govt as a condition of voting, was declared unconstitutional by the 24th amendment.

 

[mikeymikec]

becuase those are small everyday things people do
not something important like voting
if you need to prove who you are for those tasks, why not voting

Read what I wrote. Three of your examples required specific forms of ID (ie. a generic photo ID would not be sufficient) and none of those are commonplace.

Furthermore, saying "why not voting" is like saying "you require a licence to drive, so why not require a licence to vote".... ok, so then you need to follow up with justification.

 

[mdram]

Because OWNING A GUN is a Constitutional right, and because any onerous obstacle to OWNING A GUN, such as a required payment or tax to govt as a condition of OWNING A GUN, was declared unconstitutional by the 2ND amendment.

FIFY

 

[UNCjigga]

I see domestic policy imports are already trending up pre-Brexit! Who's scared of the customs union now?

 

[Jhhnn]

well then why not show it at the polling place?

Because the signature has to match. Voter ID advocates have never shown enough actual fraud to impugn the integrity of the system or the honest people who are part of it. In person voter fraud is so exceedingly rare that it's not worth the bother to citizens to place additional restrictions against it.

Well, unless you're willing to entertain Trump's notion of 3-5M fraudulent votes in 2016. That claim was absurd as are all of conservatives' evidence free concerns & rationalizations around the subject in general.

 

[Vic]

FIFY

Good thing I'm pro-2a then. In fact, I'm pro- all the amendments to the Constitution except the 18th (the one that was repealed by the 21st). How about you?

 

[pmv]

Was it a badly chosen title or am I just on everyone's ignore list?

The Tories should pay the Republicans royalties

...they keep cribbing all their ideas from them. Clearly this has a double effect - it encourages growing racism, propagating the idea that hordes of foreigners are illegally voting (something for which there is zero evidence), and it helps suppress the vote of poorer and less literate voters...

forums.anandtech.com

 

[mikeymikec]

Was it a badly chosen title or am I just on everyone's ignore list?

The Tories should pay the Republicans royalties

...they keep cribbing all their ideas from them. Clearly this has a double effect - it encourages growing racism, propagating the idea that hordes of foreigners are illegally voting (something for which there is zero evidence), and it helps suppress the vote of poorer and less literate voters...

forums.anandtech.com

You're not on mine 🙂 If it was a bigger bit of news, I probably would have checked for another thread first.

 

[PingviN]

In socialist utopia Sweden, we have voter ID laws. No valid ID (they are not issued for free by the government) and no one with a valid ID to identify you in case you have none = no vote.

87.2% voted in 2018. Voter ID is not a big fucking deal, get over it.

 

[Victorian Gray]

And you showed your ID when you last registered to vote.

Up here I don't even have to do that. You just tick a box on your income tax form and you're good to go, both federally and provincially and, possibly, at the municipal level as well (can't be arsed to look it up).

Obviously that only works if you send in a tax form but that covers the vast majority of the population. Other means are used to get/allow those that live on the margins of society to vote.

 

[pmv]

in this day and age how can you not have ID? its required for so many things

The kind of ID floated as being required for this is more demanding than the ID one needs for most things.

I don't have the ID they are currently talking about requiring.

The Tories themselves hugely increased the cost of a passport, as it happens.
There are suggestions of a special local-government-issued ID for voting, but it all depends how that is done and what they might charge for it (local government is pretty much broke already). And even then , it's clear it will be the poorest and those with the most lifestyle problems who will be least likely to manage to claim one. And nil evidence has been produced that this is even a problem that requires a solution in the first place.

 

[pmv]

go cash a check, fly on a plane, get a library card, rent a car, buy a gun/ammo, get a fishing license, buy some otc meds, and this is just in the last year or 2 for me

I haven't cashed a cheque for decades. Who still uses cheques at all, and who 'cashes' them rather than paying them into their account?

For a library card I just showed couple of household bills. Buying guns is a US-only concern. Fishing licence? God knows, not something that has ever come up. OTC meds? Never been asked for ID myself.

Though it's true that there are a few things that are supposed to require 'proof of age', but, again, the proof is less demanding than that being suggested for voting, and if you are visibly decrepit they don't usually ask.

 

[Fenixgoon]

In socialist utopia Sweden, we have voter ID laws. No valid ID (they are not issued for free by the government) and no one with a valid ID to identify you in case you have none = no vote.

87.2% voted in 2018. Voter ID is not a big fucking deal, get over it.

but in Sweden, is one party attempting to systematically disenfranchise voters through the use of voter ID laws? That's the kicker here in the US. Sure it sounds like a good idea, but studies have shown it prevents or discourages minorities from voting, and those who most loudly call for it are frequently members of a party that isn't terribly welcoming to minorities.

It's the same reason Wilbur Ross(?) wanted a question about citizenship on the census - to discourage responses from minorities which would then affect how congressional districts are made.

 

[PingviN]

but in Sweden, is one party attempting to systematically disenfranchise voters through the use of voter ID laws? That's the kicker here in the US. Sure it sounds like a good idea, but studies have shown it prevents or discourages minorities from voting, and those who most loudly call for it are frequently members of a party that isn't terribly welcoming to minorities.

It's the same reason Wilbur Ross(?) wanted a question about citizenship on the census - to discourage responses from minorities which would then affect how congressional districts are made.

Well we have voter ID laws so that's that. Whether or not it was put in place to discourage voters of a certain party or not, they're in place now. 87% still vote.

 

[Paratus]

Well we have voter ID laws so that's that. Whether or not it was put in place to discourage voters of a certain party or not, they're in place now. 87% still vote.

If they intended to require Voter ID for fraud purposes but without suppressing voters they would have passed these laws to take effect 8-12 years in the future to allow plenty of time for folks to get their ID’s in order.

Instead they are generally rushed through within a year and a half of the next election.

So how does this disenfranchise voters? In Texas in 2015 for example a judge working the Voter ID lawsuit found about 4% of the voters in the state didn’t have the correct ID’s per the proposed law.

While the law called for “free” ID’s you had to provide other forms of ID like birth certificates to get the free ID.

The court found that this was difficult for several factors:

• If you were elderly
• If you were poor
• If you were rural
• If you were a minority

One example was of an elederly minority woman who had voted her entire life and would now be barred due to lack of ID. She was born by a midwife in a rural area of another state and lacked a formal birth certificate. To get it she would have had to travel from her retirement home to that state and argue in person for a new birth certificate.

Before they would give her a birth certificate she would need a copy of her marriage certificate from a third state which was lost after her husband died if I recall, to show her legal name change. That state was more than willing to provide a copy of the certificate if she had her birth certificate....

She and her daughter spent five months trying to resolve this and was unsuccessful.

Couple the impacts and timing of the law with legislators caught on record as saying these laws are to help them get re-elected and it’s obviously being done to restrict who votes.

 

[fskimospy]

The reason why voter ID is dumb is simple. There is no evidence that in-person voter fraud exists in any meaningful way. Therefore voter ID is creating requirements to fight a nonexistent problem.

It should be common sense to not make laws that combat nonexistent problems. Why does this even need to be explained.