Vote or Die ?

imported_hscorpio

Golden Member
Sep 1, 2004
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I was reading about the southpark creators and how Sean Penn criticized them for telling undecided people to not vote. It got me to thinking and I kind of agree with them.

Should people that don't pay any attention to politics and the issues vote?

edit*-added another answer.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Have to vote for Bush, if don't vote for Bush we will die from Nuclear and Biological Bombs in our U.S. Cities, Cheney said so today.

He said Kerry can't combat such Threat, only he and Bush can protect us.

OMG OMG Have to vote for Bush or they will Kill Kenny and all of us OMG OMG
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
its a choice... you should vote if you have an opinion and you are planning on expressing it... if you really dont care that much ... dont vote... just dont bitch...
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
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Originally posted by: hscorpio
I was reading about the southpark creators and how Sean Penn criticized them for telling undecided people to not vote. It got me to thinking and I kind of agree with them.

Should people that don't pay any attention to politics and the issues vote?

Does anyone want to live under a gov't brought to us by people who don't pay any attention to politics and the issues? I would think no. The right to vote has to include the right to NOT vote, for whatever (apathy, protest, etc.) reason. I agree with letting non-voters remain non-voters. It's their choice.
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,411
57
91
You're missing an option:

No. People should vote only if they want to. Education and honesty have nothing to do with it.
 

imported_hscorpio

Golden Member
Sep 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: Mursilis

Does anyone want to live under a gov't brought to us by people who don't pay any attention to politics and the issues?

Apparently the people who are behind the vote or die campaign do.

If a person has to be pushed and pressured just to register to vote, then I wouldn't really want their vote to influence an election. Voting is something people should want to do in a healthy democracy. If a person doesn't care about politics and voting then they should stay home. They shouldn't let some activists make them feel guilty and then go cast a vote they didn't put much thought into.

Maybe the 'get out the vote' type organizations are just trying to get people involved in the process so they start paying attention and want to vote. Then again maybe they just want people to vote no matter what.

Supposedly democrats get more votes than republicans if their is a high turnout. Could this be why campaigns like 'vote or die' exist?

 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
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Originally posted by: hscorpio
Originally posted by: Mursilis

Does anyone want to live under a gov't brought to us by people who don't pay any attention to politics and the issues?

Apparently the people who are behind the vote or die campaign do.

If a person has to be pushed and pressured just to register to vote, then I wouldn't really want their vote to influence an election. Voting is something people should want to do in a healthy democracy. If a person doesn't care about politics and voting then they should stay home. They shouldn't let some activists make them feel guilty and then go cast a vote they didn't put much thought into.

Maybe the 'get out the vote' type organizations are just trying to get people involved in the process so they start paying attention and want to vote. Then again maybe they just want people to vote no matter what.

Supposedly democrats get more votes than republicans if their is a high turnout. Could this be why campaigns like 'vote or die' exist?

I don't know why 'vote or die' exists, but I agree, it's a dumb idea. If it's not an informed choice a person makes, they might as well flip a coin.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
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George Carlin summed things up pretty neatly. "Think of how stupid the average person is. Now remember because he's the average, half the people out there are stupider than him." Is this the person you want deciding the result for you if you've actually taken the time to become informed and educated about the issues?
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
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The point is not that voters make informed decisions. Democracy seeks to channel societal conflict into peaceful conflict. The point is that representatives (laws, etc) represent the voters. The problem right now is that the poor and disenfranchised and they are not represented. Not because they might have better ideas, but because all citizens should be represented in a democracy.
 

Spencer278

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 2002
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Voting is point less when your state is 10 points for one canidate and you don't really care about the guys in congress who will win or the other local elections.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Rock the Non-Vote

by Gene Callahan




Yes, I confess, last Saturday I went to see "The Dead," which is the current name of the band comprised chiefly of the remaining members of the Grateful Dead. (Now that Jerry Garcia is literally dead, perhaps they are no longer grateful.) The concert was really quite good ? the people who think the band is just peddling hippie nostalgia are misinformed. Even when those guys have an off night, an open-minded listener can appreciate that at least they are trying to keep pushing their music into new places. What's more, with Garcia gone, the rest of the band is now able to actually rehearse. (Garcia was notorious for not being able to put up with any stretch of rehearsing that lasted for more than 20 minutes or so.)

However, I was perturbed by the brief lecture Bob Weir and Phil Lesh delivered on voting, just before performing their encore. Weir told the audience to make sure to register and get to the polls this fall. "It couldn't be more important," he proclaimed. There were, he noted, tables at which one could register right there at the show. (Isn't there some law against asking 18-year-olds who are under the influence of several hits of acid what their party affiliation is?) He added that if every Deadhead in Florida had voted in 2000, "this country would be in a very different place right now." Then Lesh chimed in, saying, "It's your responsibility to vote."

The not-so-subtle implication was that everyone should register to vote against Bush, and presumably for John Kerry. But let's consider what such a decision really means. It is clear that many of the people who are enthusiastic about electing Kerry feel that way because they believe that the current administration deceived the American people into supporting an unjustified war against Iraq.

If that describes you, I want to say that I think your heart is in the right place. But do you realize that Kerry has said he will increase the number of US soldiers in Iraq? Do you recall that Kerry voted for the war? Now, of course, he is attempting to excuse that vote by pointing to the faulty information he was given. (Well, at least excuse it a bit, because he has never said that if he had been in Bush's place, the US wouldn't have attacked Iraq, only that he would have spent more time talking with the head honchos in other countries before doing so.)

But were you fooled by the propaganda pouring out of the White House and the neoconservative press? I sure wasn't, and I know that many of my antiwar friends on the left were not either. So why was John Kerry duped? Shouldn't he have had access to even more information than we did? Given that he had to cast a vote on whether or not to authorize the war while you and I had no such opportunity, that he is paid to think about such matters, and that he has a staff to help him ferret out the relevant facts, then shouldn't he have been far less susceptible to the disinformation campaign than we were?

I agree that it's a good thing if you take some responsibility for the actions of your nation's government. (I say "some," because it is easy to take that idea way too far, so that you wind up indulging in righteous superiority because you are all torn up over, perhaps, how awful the slave trade was, or how brutally the US suppressed the Filipino effort to achieve independence after the Spanish-American War. Yes, it was awful, and yes, it was brutal, but those really aren't the sort of things you're going to fix now, are they? Feeling guilty about situations that one had nothing to do with and that one can't possibly change is just a way to boost one's own self-image, and has nothing to do with genuine responsibility.) So sure, do whatever you can to steer the society in which you live in a better direction. But in this election, casting a vote for either of the two real contenders means voting for more war.

The question of whether or not to vote also came up for me a week or so before The Dead concert, when I was talking to a friend of mine about the upcoming election. He's fairly interested in politics; furthermore, he knows that I write about and devote some thought to political affairs. So when I told him I wasn't planning to vote this fall he was quite surprised, and expressed his disapproval ? in a polite and friendly way ? of any citizen who doesn't make his voice heard at the polls.

However, he had mistakenly assumed that I would be sitting this one out because I am indifferent to the state of the country, or I just can't muster up the energy to get out and cast my ballot. Quite to the contrary, I am an enthusiastic non-voter. After all, to write a column about not voting takes more effort than does walking a couple of blocks to a local school and pulling a few levers. What's more, not only do I not vote, and write about not voting, but I also endure the censure of others when I tell them I'm not going to vote, and I pitch the case for not voting when the topic happens to come up in conversation. (I generally don't bring it up myself ? you become a terrible bore if you are so fixated on your pet idea that, as though it were Rome, all conversational roads seem to lead there.)

Of course, Bush and Kerry are not the only two people running for president this year. Some readers might urge me to cast my vote for one of the minor party candidates, as the best way to express my displeasure with the choice offered by the two major parties. I have encountered libertarians who believe that it would be a significant statement if, for example, the Libertarian Party candidate received 5% of the vote in a presidential election. I assume that there are Green Party members, Naderites, and others who have similar goals. But even if, for instance, a Libertarian some day garners that much support, then I think the primary result will be that Republican and Democratic candidates for office will spout slightly more libertarian rhetoric. Perhaps Congress might even pass a bill legalizing medical marijuana or something of the sort, which, I admit, would be a fine thing. Otherwise, however, the Republicrats will continue governing pretty much as usual, generally increasing the reach of the state into all of our lives, whatever slogans they might bandy about while running for office. (Remember, our previous president declared "the era of big government is over," and then made the government even bigger, while the current one promised us a more "humble" foreign policy, and then embarked on the least humble one we've yet witnessed.)

My own vision of how we can express our unhappiness with being free to choose our preferred beverage, so long as we pick Coke or Pepsi, is a bit different: I'd like to see a presidential election where only 5% or 10% of all eligible voters go to the polls. A turnout that low would be far more damaging to the position of the elite who run this country than would a few million votes cast for some minor-party candidate. (I wonder if the people who believe that defeating Bush will make a significant difference in the way this country is governed have noticed that the only real alternative to Dubya is another millionaire from the Skull and Bones society?) The fact that real political power in the US is in the hands of a tiny fraction of the population is obscured by the quadrennial spectacle in which the rest of us can pick one of their two candidates to be "our" next president.

So I say, let's rock the non-vote. Since we aren't being offered any really meaningful choice, let's not lend credence to the pretense that we are. If you weren't planning to vote, then, instead of mumbling apologetically when asked about it, proudly tell others why you aren't. If you were intending to cast a ballot, perhaps in order to protest our current foreign policy, then consider the notion that you might do so more effectively by staying home and reading a good book. If we spread the word, then maybe in a few years we will see tables at rock concerts where the attendees can sign up to get themselves removed from the list of eligible voters.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Rock the Non-Vote, Part 2

by Gene Callahan




I've often been mistaken, as I would guess most published writers have, about the level of response a particular article of mine will elicit. There have been times when I was convinced that some column would really strike a chord with readers, only to receive almost no feedback after its publication. On the other hand, I have written pieces that I feared were too esoteric or obscure to draw much interest, but whose public debut elicited a flood of comments.

However, once in a while, I do get it right. Recently, for example, when I sent "Rock the Non-Vote" to LewRockwell.com, I suspected it might generate many comments, and, lo and behold, it did! (By the way, I try to respond to every reader who writes to me. However, especially when I receive many letters about an article, I often can't find time to answer all of them as they arrive. Then, some of them may drop off the first screen of my inbox, at which point they become "out of sight, out of mind." Occasionally, during one of my periodic purges of old messages, I encounter such neglected correspondence, with the result that a reader receives an apologetic response many months after writing to me. In any case, if I've ever failed to answer an e-mail of yours it was probably because I simply lost track of it, so please don't take it personally!)*

"Rock the Non-Vote" prompted a roughly equal number of positive and negative responses. Since the basic thrust of the supportive e-mails was that I was right, there is little more to say about them. It is the notes from my critics that prompt either clarification of or expansion on my original arguments, and they are what I will address here.

I will begin by tackling what I think is the weakest objection to not voting that I received. (It's kind of like jogging slowly to warm up for a fast run: start out easy, loosening up the muscles so that they're prepared for the harder stuff ahead.) While it was advanced by several of my correspondents, one in particular phrased it quite succinctly, saying, "if a citizen doesn't vote he has no right to bitch about illegal wars or tax n' spend."

However, I think that contention is precisely backwards. To see why, imagine a stranger approaching you, a gun in his hand, and declaring that you have the "right" to play Russian roulette with him. If you don't exercise your right, he says, he still plans to aim his gun at you, spin the cylinder, and then pull the trigger. If you agree to take part in his proposed game, it seems to me, then you have weakened the force of any protest you might lodge about the outcome. On the other hand, if you tell him you want no part of such foolishness, and that he should leave you alone, then how in the world would that negate your right to object to his plan?

Isn't our "right" to vote closely analogous to that situation? Although I'm offered the chance to take my own turn spinning the cylinder and pulling the trigger of the gun, I'm not permitted to opt out of my role as a potential target. If I attempt to ignore the outcome of an election, based on the simple fact that I never agreed to abide by it in the first place, the State is prepared to use deadly force against me, in order to compel me to pay attention. Why should my refusal to participate in the State's aggressive schemes mean that I could no longer criticize them?

Another common objection was that my stance is cynical. Of course, even if that charge is true, it is hardly a knockdown argument. It is quite sensible to be cynical about some things. And, in one respect, these correspondents are correct: I am cynical about the pretensions of "public service" put forward by politicians, and about the "choice" represented by the Democratic and Republican parties.

However, in a more important sense, I regard my view as quite the opposite of cynical: I have a deep faith in the ability of ordinary people to choose for themselves and to cooperate with each other, if they are not in thrall to "leaders" who reinforce their grip on power by pitting class against class, race against race, and nation against nation.

Others among my critics agreed that the Democrats and Republicans don't really offer voters much of a choice, but they held that voting for a minor party candidate is a more effective form of protest than lethargically sitting on the sidelines. I disagree, for several reasons. First of all, "lethargically sitting on the sidelines" doesn't accurately portray my recommended alternative. This article is the 136th I've written for LewRockwell.com. I also write (or at least have written) for about ten other libertarian or free market print or web publications, I have given a number of public talks, and I speak to people I meet about political affairs when they seem receptive. I don't do those things for money ? I made far more when I was a computer programmer ? or for fame ? I was already established as a writer for software magazines when I began to focus on politics and economics. (And I'm not mentioning these facts because I'm fishing for compliments about what a noble chap I am ? believe me, I'm not all that noble! ? but only to illustrate that "lethargy" is not what I practice or advise.)

Secondly, even if you eschew the Republicrats and vote Libertarian, Constitution, Green, or whatever else, you are still implicitly agreeing that whichever party garners the most support for its platform has won the right to force it on everyone else. (What's more, the party's candidates are not even bound to pay any heed to the platform they campaigned on once they are in office!) But I regard the idol worship of "the will of the people" as perhaps the most common, fundamental error in the political thought of our age. Bowing before that idol is unlikely to advance the cause of freedom. (I'm not suggesting that it is always wrong to vote. Voting against, say, a proposed new tax strikes me as a valid defensive measure, and, if I lived in Ron Paul's congressional district I might very well vote for him.)

What's more, on a purely pragmatic level, I don't envision that support, even very broad support, for a minor party will result in any really significant progress toward freedom. Certainly, as I said in my previous column, we might see some positive changes on the margin, such as some easing of our drug laws or slightly lower tax rates. It's not that I wouldn't welcome those changes, but they certainly don't "strike the root" of the weed that is strangling our liberty ? no serious blow to that root can be delivered through participating in a process that feeds and waters it.

If, for instance, Libertarian Party candidates began getting 20% of the votes in any significant number of important races, the politically powerful would just make sure that they captured control of the party, which they could do easily ? that's why, after all, we call them "politically powerful." Do you recall that, in 1980, Reagan was an "outsider" candidate who was leading a "conservative revolution"? But, at the GOP convention, the establishment Republicans told him that if he didn't accept Bush Sr. as his running mate, and place a bunch of their boys in his administration, they wouldn't support him. (Murray Rothbard details that history in his essay "The Reagan Phenomenon.") And so, despite Reagan's conservative rhetoric, the Federal government kept growing throughout his presidency.

Or consider that, this year, the top concerns of most Democratic voters include the war in Iraq, which they believe was unnecessary and unjust, the possibility of more such military adventurism to come, which they hope to prevent, and their suspicion that the current administration is run by and for the rich. So whom do they wind up with as "their" candidate for president? John Kerry, who voted for the war, who is committed to keeping American soldiers in Iraq indefinitely, has discussed sending even more US troops there, who has promised to take a hard line with Iran and Syria, and who is a multi-millionaire member of the very same elitist, secret society as the president whom "his" voters despise.

Howard Dean's positions were more in line with those of most Democrats. But, when it looked like such a non-establishment candidate might win the party's nomination for president, the mainstream media suddenly found all sorts of things wrong with him, and within a few weeks he went from being the clear favorite to being roundly whomped in almost every primary. (By the way, we don't need to embrace any conspiracy theory to explain those events. The media elite and the political elite move in the same circles, so that they are continually informed of and influenced by each other's views. If the idea that Dean was a "fringe" candidate, whose nomination would spell certain victory for Bush, began to circulate widely in that social milieu, his campaign was sunk, whether or not there was any cabal devoted to torpedoing it.)

Today, the American ruling class can generally ignore all political parties except the two biggies, since the other ones almost never win important races. In fact, their existence helps to sustain the two-party system, by providing a safety valve for dissidents to vent their frustration. But, should a third party ever become a political force with which to be reckoned, the ruling class's interest in it will swiftly be piqued.

So, no, I don't think that voting for minor-party candidates is a generally better strategy than abstinence. However, if you believe that voting in some particular election will forward the cause of liberty, then I'm certainly not going to berate you for casting it. I'm not quite so arrogant as to think I always know what choices other people should make. I merely suggest that the larger struggle will not be won or lost in the polling booths, and that we will actually retard the cause of freedom if we put too much focus on them.

A fourth argument I received for voting is that the people running the country couldn't care less if only 10% of eligible voters show up for a presidential election. Now, perhaps I didn't make my point clearly enough, because I wasn't implying that those folks will feel guilty or bashful about ruling if they don't have a "popular mandate." But they are generally not stupid, and they know that any government relies on the consent of the governed for its continued existence. For example, I recently attended a lecture by Dr. Anna Ebeling, a historian who grew up in the Soviet Union, in which she said that the USSR lasted as long as it did only because the vast majority of the Russian people took the rule of an autocratic, secretive state as a given aspect of life in their country; the Communists were merely carrying on in the tradition of the czars. But once a generation that had been exposed to liberal ideas came of age, too many Soviet subjects came to regard their government as illegitimate, resulting in its collapse.

The need to sustain the appearance of legitimacy is the prime motivation for the repeated, energetic efforts to "get out the vote." The widespread idea that, whomever a person supports, the most important thing is that he at least votes for someone, is really rather curious. It would seem to be in the interest of Democrats that Republicans not vote, and vice versa. Yet I find that people are usually more upset to learn that I don't plan to vote at all than they would be if they discovered I intended to vote for a candidate they oppose. I get the feeling that they might even regard my casting a ballot for a Pol Pot or an Adolf Hitler as morally preferable to not participating: "Well, at least you are fulfilling your civic responsibility and making your voice heard in our democracy!" But a little reflection should expose such an attitude as nutty: voting for an evil, murderous monster is clearly far more reprehensible than staying home on election day.

The long and short of it is that no one who wrote to disabuse me of my silly idea succeeded. Nevertheless, I appreciated their comments ? at least those of the bulk of them who were polite and didn't call me names ? and they spurred me to think more deeply about my position. I hope that at least a few of my critics might find this article equally useful.
 

oldman420

Platinum Member
May 22, 2004
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If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
And free means free not to vote if one chooses so.
 

AcidicFury

Golden Member
May 7, 2004
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I really think we should create a system like Australia where we fine if people don't vote. That would make for a better election.
 

imported_hscorpio

Golden Member
Sep 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Rock the Non-Vote

by Gene Callahan.....

yada yada yada...

This is an odd strategy. I disagree with it because by not voting the politicians either think you don't care or you are unhappy with the choices. I think they will take the easy out and just write off your non vote as apathy. If you want to show how unhappy you are with the two party's candidates just vote for a third party. Then write your representatives telling them why you are unhappy with the two party status quo.


 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: hscorpio
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Rock the Non-Vote

by Gene Callahan.....

yada yada yada...

This is an odd strategy. I disagree with it because by not voting the politicians either think you don't care or you are unhappy with the choices. I think they will take the easy out and just write off your non vote as apathy. If you want to show how unhappy you are with the two party's candidates just vote for a third party. Then write your representatives telling them why you are unhappy with the two party status quo.

I noticed you didn't read the articles, Callahan addresses this point of view.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Picking Neither of Two Evils

by Bob Murphy




Lately Gene Callahan has been writing articles exposing the sheer silliness of the conventional American view of democracy. Now, since my father?s retirement, I have had to find a new professional role model, and naturally I have decided to be just like Gene Callahan when I grow up. Consequently, I will spend this article trying to convince you, gentle reader, that you should stop wasting your time at the voting booth.

One Man Can?t Make a Difference

Contrary to popular belief, your vote does not matter, and you cannot make a difference. Before I argue this point, let?s change the context so we?re not biased. Suppose your coworker takes off some time on November 2, in order to drive out to the woods and carve "GWB" on a tree. When he got back to work, you would naturally ask him what in the world he was doing. Suppose he answered, "Oh, I really feel that George Bush will take this country in a better direction than Kerry would."

At this point, you would point out that carving Bush?s initials on a tree doesn?t affect which person becomes president; regardless of how much better your coworker considers Bush, his actions were still ludicrous.

Well folks, it?s the exact same thing with voting. There is just about a zero percent chance that your vote will make a difference in whether Bush or Kerry is elected. The only way that your vote can matter is if the Electoral vote is close enough so that the Electoral votes in your state determine the race, and if the popular vote in your state is decided by a margin of exactly one.

This last part is crucial, so let me elaborate: Even if the rest of the Electoral votes are close enough, so that whichever candidate wins your home state wins the election, your vote still would not matter if Bush got (say) 10 million votes in your state, while Kerry got 9,999,998. Suppose you are a Bush supporter. Then even if you had stayed home and not cast your vote for Bush, he still would have won the popular vote in your state (by one) and hence the election. Suppose you are a Kerry supporter. Even though you cast your vote for him, Bush still won. So clearly you could have stayed home and been better off.

Thus we see that the act of voting confers virtually no benefit, as far as influencing the outcome of the election. So if you want to say that you like to vote because it makes you feel important, or because it?s sorta neat inside those little booths, fair enough. But if you say that you?re voting this time because the election is an important one, well, that?s as silly as carving a candidate?s initials in a tree.

Thinking on the Margin

Of course, the above reasoning ? in terms of expected benefits and costs ? is just a particular example of thinking "on the margin." Although it seems selfish and unprincipled, it?s actually the way individuals engage in all other types of behavior, too. Sure, most parents are very concerned about their children?s safety, but that doesn?t mean they prohibit their kids from riding in an automobile. No, on the margin the parents decide that the expected benefits from riding in the minivan (as opposed to other forms of transportation, or just staying home) outweigh the expected costs (i.e., things that could go wrong, such as a car accident). And notice that the likelihood of an accident is certainly a crucial consideration: the safety-conscious parent may insist on seat belts, or prohibit the child from riding with certain irresponsible friends. These moves in no way contradict the parent?s equally dogmatic insistence that the child ride the school bus everyday.

In the same way, even if you are a political junkie, who watches CNN nonstop and checks LRC every single day, it doesn?t follow that you should go vote. Your time would be far better spent (in terms of its likely effects on the outcome of the election) writing a Letter to the Editor of your paper, or calling people up randomly and trying to talk politics. It?s true, you might scoff at these suggestions as obviously worthless, but that?s the point ? casting your vote is worth even less.

Third Party Candidates

The average person actually has no problem using the cost and expected benefit approach when it comes to third party candidates. Just about everyone will admit that Kerry and Bush are terrible, in an absolute sense, and that (whether from the Green or Communist or Libertarian Parties) there is some third party candidate who is much preferable. So why don?t they vote for those candidates, who much more accurately "represent" the voter? "Oh, he doesn?t stand a chance of winning. If I vote for him, I?ll just be throwing my vote away."

Ahh, but once you say that, you?ve given away the game. Because clearly, Ralph Nader could win, in the sense that?s it?s both logically and even physically possible. The person who says "Nader can?t win" really means, "I am absolutely certain that other voters will overwhelmingly pick Bush or Kerry, such that my vote for Nader would not help him win."

Okay, are you still with me? Good. Now take that exact same reasoning, and ask yourself why you are still voting for Bush or Kerry. Is it because you predict that other voters will pick Bush and Kerry with such a close margin that your vote will help either of them win?

Of course not. Everyone knows that his or her vote will not, on the margin, do anything. So if you?re voting because you think your vote makes a difference, why in the world aren?t you voting for the "best person for the job"? Rather than picking Bush or Kerry, you should write in "Lew Rockwell" or "Jerry Falwell" or "Howard Stern," depending on your views. That would make just as much sense.

Cynical?

Of course, even though the reader may be compelled to admit a certain plausibility and consistency with my arguments, it seems like I?m leaving something out. After all, aren?t there all sorts of things where the cynic says, "What can one man do?" and yet, society benefits from those who realize the power of the individual?

Yes, but that?s because in those cases, the cynics are wrong. For example, Jesus of Nazareth certainly showed the power of one man, even a poor, officially uneducated one. To take a secular example, the people who write for LewRockwell.com certainly feel that we are "making a difference," even though the power brokers in Washington would laugh at our "purity" and our ultimate hope in the power of reason.

But these aren?t examples of violations of marginal thinking. No, the reason I write articles (for example) is that, no matter what, I know there are at least a few people who read them and actually alter their opinions because of them. (Perhaps they don?t change their mind overall, but they realize they need to alter their arguments to take care of my nitpicking observations.) To pick an even more mundane example, if I pick up some litter from the sidewalk, well, the area is that much cleaner, even though a cynic might think, "No matter how much I try to clean up, others will just litter, so what?s the point?"

In contrast to all this, though, pulling the lever for Kerry or Bush really won?t do anything. Given what everyone else is doing, your decision to vote for your preferred candidate (of the two) or to abstain instead, makes absolutely no difference. If your candidate wins, he would have done so without you, and if he loses, then your vote obviously was a waste.

"What If Everyone Thought Like That?"

We now come to the final objection. In certain areas, such as deciding on a college major or picking a spouse, the economist?s self-centered, cost-benefit approach makes sense. You wouldn?t say to a college junior, "Oh, don?t major in engineering. If everyone did that, there would be no farmers and we?d all starve to death."

Yet when it comes to voting, for some reason this type of argument is considered perfectly valid. Rather than focusing on what the individual can truly control, the issue is shifted so that the individual is now analyzed as controlling the votes of millions of people. That?s why it is apparently a valid argument to say, "I really think Kerry would be awful, so I?m going to vote for Bush."

Ironically, the argument for voting doesn?t hold up even here. If you want to be "principled" about it, and act in a pseudo-Kantian way by doing that which you wish everyone else to do, then you should go vote for the "best person for the job." Then, when your more pragmatic friends tell you that they?re going to vote for Bush or Kerry instead, rather than your candidate (whom they admit would be preferable), you can shake your head and say, "If everyone acted like you, then our troops would be stuck in Iraq for another ten years. That?s why you should do the principled thing and vote for Pat Buchanan [or whomever]."

Before ending this section, let me mention one other passing observation. The same people who can?t believe my impudence and irresponsibility for failing to vote in the presidential election, generally have no problem not voting in state or local elections. Yet your vote has a much better chance of mattering here, and you have a much better chance of actually knowing what you?re doing since the issues are closer to home!

Conclusion

I hope I have now convinced the reader of two things. First, your individual vote really will do nothing at all to influence the outcome of the election. Second, the various types of arguments you could muster to answer the first point, could also be used to show why you should not vote for Bush or Kerry, but for the candidate who you really think ought to be in the White House.

Finally, for those of you who think that nobody should be in the White House ? that it is both immoral and absurd to vest such immense responsibilities and the power to steal and kill in the hands of one individual ? then obviously you should vote for nobody. And if you start to feel pangs of guilt, remind yourself that, when faced with two admitted evils, the truly principled thing to do is abstain.

September 7, 2004

Bob Murphy [send him mail] has a PhD in economics from New York University, and is the author of Minerva. See his personal website at BobMurphy.net.
 

imported_hscorpio

Golden Member
Sep 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: hscorpio
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Rock the Non-Vote

by Gene Callahan.....

yada yada yada...

This is an odd strategy. I disagree with it because by not voting the politicians either think you don't care or you are unhappy with the choices. I think they will take the easy out and just write off your non vote as apathy. If you want to show how unhappy you are with the two party's candidates just vote for a third party. Then write your representatives telling them why you are unhappy with the two party status quo.

I noticed you didn't read the articles, Callahan addresses this point of view.

I read what you posted and found it interesting, but I just don't think I agree with it. What is his goal? If millions of americans followed this strategy what would then happen?

He mentioned the USSR and how it didn't collapse until after a generation had been exposed to liberal ideas and began to feel the government was illegitimate. So if only 5% of americans voted then the government would be seen as illegitimate and could be overthrown/changed/etc. Then what would we do? I think our system is flawed but it's not so bad that we can't fix it without destroying it.

As far as the third parties go, the author dismisses this route since their ideas will just be merged into the republican and democrats platforms. This has happened in the past, but whats so bad about it. If libertarians got a high % then the republicans integrated all the libertarians ideas into their own party is it such a bad thing. As long as the new policies are actually put into place, who cares what party does it?

 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Everyone who can vote ought to because they should, not because they have to.

Choosing not to choose is also a choice, and that choice is part of one's freedom. It is not the one I would choose, but isn't that a good working definition of freedom? To do (or not) what you would and not the will of someone else? Of course choices must be responsible. That is the difference between freedom and anarchy.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
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Originally posted by: hscorpio
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: hscorpio
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Rock the Non-Vote

by Gene Callahan.....

yada yada yada...

This is an odd strategy. I disagree with it because by not voting the politicians either think you don't care or you are unhappy with the choices. I think they will take the easy out and just write off your non vote as apathy. If you want to show how unhappy you are with the two party's candidates just vote for a third party. Then write your representatives telling them why you are unhappy with the two party status quo.

I noticed you didn't read the articles, Callahan addresses this point of view.

I read what you posted and found it interesting, but I just don't think I agree with it. What is his goal? If millions of americans followed this strategy what would then happen?

He mentioned the USSR and how it didn't collapse until after a generation had been exposed to liberal ideas and began to feel the government was illegitimate. So if only 5% of americans voted then the government would be seen as illegitimate and could be overthrown/changed/etc. Then what would we do? I think our system is flawed but it's not so bad that we can't fix it without destroying it.

As far as the third parties go, the author dismisses this route since their ideas will just be merged into the republican and democrats platforms. This has happened in the past, but whats so bad about it. If libertarians got a high % then the republicans integrated all the libertarians ideas into their own party is it such a bad thing. As long as the new policies are actually put into place, who cares what party does it?

The problem is that party platforms are virtually meaningless. The GOP has been claiming that it is the party of "fiscal responsibility" and "small government" for decades, but every single year it has failed to deliver on this claim, racking up bigger and bigger deficits, and continuously levying taxes that have made slaves of working public.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
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Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Everyone who can vote ought to because they should, not because they have to.

Choosing not to choose is also a choice, and that choice is part of one's freedom. It is not the one I would choose, but isn't that a good working definition of freedom? To do (or not) what you would and not the will of someone else? Of course choices must be responsible. That is the difference between freedom and anarchy.

Voting has nothing to do with freedom. In fact, elections are actually designed to elect officials who set out to destroy our freedoms and expropriate as much private property as they possibly can. If voting is freedom, then I officially renounce this freedom right now. PLEASE take away my "right" to vote, and get rid of every single "public" office! Please!
 

imported_hscorpio

Golden Member
Sep 1, 2004
1,617
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Originally posted by: Dissipate

The problem is that party platforms are virtually meaningless. The GOP has been claiming that it is the party of "fiscal responsibility" and "small government" for decades, but every single year it has failed to deliver on this claim, racking up bigger and bigger deficits, and continuously levying taxes that have made slaves of working public.

True. If people who want small governmentt actually payed attention and looked past the republicans rhetoric and voted for libertarians or someone else, then the republicans would either fall out of power or be forced to actually practice what they preach. The thing is that we must hold them accountable, and how do we do that? By voting.