Volunteering, minimum wages, and capitalism

[Xede]

saxman's locked thread about suing Anandtech does bring up an interesting point.

Personally, I agree with him--not the suing part, but that volunteers working for a for-profit organization are illegal. We have a minimum-wage in this country. Working for $1/hr less than minimum wage is illegal. Working for $2/hr less than minimum wage is illegal. Presumably, working for $0.01/hr is also illegal. So why is working for nothing per hour legal? Because the people "volunteer" to do it? Yeah, but if somebody willingly wants to work for $2.50/hr, they are "volunteering" for that too--nobody's forcing them to do it. The demarcation between minimum wage and free labor (either/or) is entirely artificial, with no basis on what value either party of an actual economic exchange would assign to the labor.

My point is that--since we do have minimum wage laws--volunteering for a for-profit organization is illegal. However, I also think that the minimum wage laws are wrong, since they prohibit an economic exchange that BOTH parties would otherwise mutually desire. The fact that volunteering is illegal under current laws is just one example of the stupid inefficiencies that are introduced into the economy once you start blocking capitalism.

As a side note: above I've been referring only to for-profit organizations. Don't minimum wage laws apply to non-profit organizations too? IE, a church can't pay its facilities staff less than minimum wage, right? If that's the case, then it seems to me that volunteering to work for free for a non-profit organization is also illegal.

 

[tontod]

Hmm, lets see if this gets locked or not. Be ready for your flame suit Xede, you'll be getting a lot your way :Q

 

[konichiwa]

I don't think the minimum wage laws are designed for somebody who "wants" to work for less than the minimum wage. There's designed to protect workers from ending up in sweatshop environments.

 

[Viper GTS]

If that's the case, then it seems to me that volunteering to work for free for a non-profit organization is also illegal.

No, it's not. How do you think churches survive?

Viper GTS

 

[Adul]

You can make less the minimum wage if you area waiter/waitress. They get away with i because you receive tips to supplement your income.

 

[RaDragon]

what about interns (who do not get paid) but get school credit?

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Waitresses can be paid less than minimum wage so long as thier tips put them above minimum wage. And if you think minimum wage isn't neccessary, you haven't worked in the food service industry.

 

[eakers]

<< , I also think that the minimum wage laws are wrong >>


there are people in the world that need jobs because they have families to support as well as themselves. YOu think that employers would pay fair amounts for work done if there was no minimum wage?

people dont choose to work in sweat shops they choose to have food and shelter.

*kat. <-- :|

 

[Ornery]

The government has no business imposing a minimum wage. I'd like to know how many of you pay your baby sitters and paper carriers the minimum wage. I'd like to know why you feel you should be exempt.

Without that stupid law, this wouldn't be an issue, and it's easy to see how screwed up this issue is, isn't it? Lose those laws and everything falls neatly into place.

 

[Rastus]

One of the problems with taking volunteer labor is someone who needs a job is deprived of employment. That same argument is made about using prison populations to do work (making license plates).

 

[Xede]

tontod: I'm not saying I think things SHOULD be that way. Everything I said was intended as taking minimum wage laws to their logical conclusion (as interpreted by me).

konichiwa: &quot;I don't think the minimum wage laws are designed for somebody who &quot;wants&quot; to work for less than the minimum wage. There's designed to protect workers from ending up in sweatshop environments.&quot;

I don't think that distinction exists (as long as there are no additional elements present, such as threat of physical violence--coerced labor). People in sweatshops WANT to work there. Probably not in the sense that &quot;working in this sweatshop gives me great joy and fulfillment&quot;, but they DO want to work there because that is how they choose to spend their time. Our middle-class sensibilities tell us that working for (compared to us) low wages for long hours is wrong. But for the worker, they are choosing the activity from which they receive the greatest benefit.

If you believe that, morally, a minimum wage is good because it protects people from engaging in an economic exchange that they would otherwise choose (propping up wages), then you have to also accept the ineffeciencies and ironies that result (like volunteering being illegal).

 

[eakers]

i can not believe what i am reading!
i am disgusted.
You all must have welll paying jobs and education becuase you wouldnt be saying what you are.

Grow up have some compassion for gods sake!
not everyone has the same opportunitys as you.

*kat. <-- *pukes*

 

[piku]

I don't get it.

Why the hell does it matter? If these people want to volunteer for free, whether it be a profit or non-profit organization, why not let them? Its like stealing. If I come over your house and steal everything, and you don't care, its not illegal. Its only illegal if you report it - but if these people are signing on to be volunteers in the first place, obviously they wont be suing any time soon.

Besides, the Anandtech mods arent money-grubbing idiots that the AOL ones are.

 

[piku]

<< there are people in the world that need jobs because they have families to support as well as themselves. YOu think that employers would pay fair amounts for work done if there was no minimum wage? >>



It would balance itself out naturally, without the need of laws. Any company that doesn't pay well simply would not have any people working for them. And since a company needs workers, they would be forced to pay better, or else close shop.

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

What i want to know is whether or not I can go get some children to volunteer to make some shoes for me. Just do it!

 

[Viper GTS]

Kat...

The minimum wage laws, IMO, stifle motivation. Why should I work harder in school, they have to pay me minimum wage no matter what. The motivation behind it may be good (eg how you see it) but the end result isn't what was intended.

Viper GTS

 

[Demon-Xanth]

As far as labor laws go, during the industrial revolution employees were kept as slaved because the companies essentially forced the employees into debt as long as they worked for the company. There is companies that would do that if they could. Ever hear of pay cuts? Yep, they happen. An employer could hire someone on for an attractive wage then steadily drop thier pay rate while promising that it will go up (when hell freezes over) until the employee cannot wait any more and leaves. This happens.

And as far as unions go. I'm all for them. What a number of companies do should be a crime. Hire a bunch of temps for 90 days. in 89 lay them all off. Offer the good ones another 90 days of temp on the way out the door. Repeat. I went to school with people that ended up temping for two years straight while they were in school. Two years is hardly temporary. And asking the government to force employees back on the job is like asking the government to make your slaves go back to work.

 

Why would you want to make volunteering illegal?
Are you conservative nazi dictator freaks?

Lets make more rules, to regulate the rules, made by the rules makers that are watching the watchers.


Man have a heart.

 

[Ornery]

Here ya go *kat:

• So why not a ten-buck minimum? Nov. 1, 1999
  by William F. Buckley <-- *no slouch*

 

[Xede]

SammySon: Dude, you entirely missed the point of what I was saying.

Neither I nor anyone else in this thread is saying that volunteering SHOULD be illegal. I'm saying that, as I interpret minimum wage laws, the laws seem to imply that volunteering is illegal. Say the minimum wage is $5.00. That means it's illegal to work for $4.00/hr. It's illegal to work for $3.00/hr, $2.00/hr, $1.00/hr, $0.25/hr, and $0.01/hr. What's so special about working for $0.00/hr? It's just a point on the continuum of wages from $0.00 on up. If working for $0.01/hr is wrong, why's it ok to work for $0.00/hr? Get rid of the minimum wage law and you have no problems of logic.

The fact that volunteering can be construed as illegal activity under minimum wage laws is ridiculous--an unnatural result of having a minimum wage rather than free exchanges of goods and labor.

So I was just saying that, if we interpret minimum wage laws logically, volunteering is illegal. Whether or not we actually have a minimum wage is a different point. Some people think we shouldn't; some think we should. As I'm sure the article Ornery linked to points out--why not have a $100/hr minimum wage? Wouldn't that be great? No poverty, everybody's well off. Given that extreme example, just about everybody can tell that there would be problems. Businesses wouldn't be able to pay their employees and would close, our economy crash, and people ultimatley be much WORSE off than before, because there wouldn't be any of those $100/hr jobs to be had.

Obviously there are trade-offs: the $100/hr minimum wage has benefits (good pay for low-wage earners) but also problems (economic harm). In that case the harm greatly outweighs any good. The exact same trade-offs apply for lower, more realistic minimum wages, just on a smaller and less tangible scale. The economy (including low and high wage earners) suffered in the $100/hr example; it suffers too in the realistic minimum wage example, just not as much (things like decreased economic activity, growth, and fewer jobs).

 

[Bignate603]

If they want to do it, let them do it.

 

[woodie1]

I am a capitalist-the government has no business setting wages. The market will do it without all these laws. If you have a skill you will be in demand, no skill tough. I pay taxes to educate you so you can get ahead. You want to sit on your butt then starve.

 

[Russ]

<< but that volunteers working for a for-profit organization are illegal. >>



Xede,

Wrong. Not sure where you got that crap, but there is nothing illegal in the use of volunteers in and of itself. It only becomes illegal if working hours or activities are specifically regulated by the company utilizing their services.

Even then, special dispensation is afforded for specific circumstances such as internships.

Eakers,



<< YOu think that employers would pay fair amounts for work done if there was no minimum wage? >>



Not sure where you live, but nobody I know of has paid ONLY minimum wage for quite some time. The market for good help is too competitive.



<< people dont choose to work in sweat shops they choose to have food and shelter. >>



Not much of an argument since sweat shops are already illegal, and have been for many years.

Demon-Xanth,



<< What a number of companies do should be a crime. >>



What a number of unions do, IS a crime. However, as bad as unions are, even they are preferable to Federal Piggy screwing with the free market.

Russ, NCNE

 

They call it volunteering for a reason.
You dont get pay
What about waitresses, they get below federal minimum.
What makes them different? Just the tips factor?
Why is that?

 

[Stark]

this discussion is like a hand grenade... pull the pin and two weeks later it blows up.

I'm sure the people who mod on these forums would never consider suing anand for back pay, but it will be very interesting to see how the aol lawsuit shakes out. I saw that Ars just set up a voluntary subscription system where their members can give money to support the site... possibly a sign of things to come at AT.

The major difference between aol and at that i can see is that you must pay to use the aol forums... and they rely on volunteers to add value to their product. Anand makes money off the hits he gets from the ad banners, but he provides the forums for use by all non-aol users free of charge. Russ also makes good points.

I have no evidence supporting my hunches, but I'd bet that the mods around here get some pretty nice perks compliments of anand.