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Vista set to swallow 800MB of RAM

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You know for a tech forum, there are a lot of freaking luddites around!

OK... I crack here comes the car analogy.

Hi Mr Salesman... I have this ford, i want it to go faster, I want leather seats, I want a better stereo, and I want satnav, and I want the ultimate security system...

... but I want you to do it using less electronics, less metal and less leather and to cost less money.

Do you see the idiocy of your post/the original argument now?
 
Originally posted by: Seeruk
You know for a tech forum, there are a lot of freaking luddites around!

OK... I crack here comes the car analogy.

Hi Mr Salesman... I have this ford, i want it to go faster, I want leather seats, I want a better stereo, and I want satnav, and I want the ultimate security system...

... but I want you to do it using less electronics, less metal and less leather and to cost less money.

Do you see the idiocy of your post/the original argument now?


I don't know if this is directed towards me but I'm pretty much in favor for a lean operating system as most of the crap that comes with windows is pure garbage. Now, if they can integrate USEFUL and advanced features into windows with no hit to performance, more power to them. Problem is we get crappy software integrated into more crappy software so we end up with a buggy operating system, trying to do "everything" which effectively makes each thing it does "crappy" and it becomes a mess.

If you're going to add something to windows, it better be worth it and it better not be killing performance.. You can add features to windows with out it hurting performance, you really can, problem with people on this forum is that they refuse to believe this is possible.

I used to be against the fact that windows was taking up so much space but the proportion and upgradeability of HDDs in systems is much cheaper than upgrading ram in a computer.

That cheap 256/512MB DDR module ain't goanna work in your PII/Pentium desktop, you've got to use older technologies in order to upgrade and it's going to cost you $$$... HDDs on the other hand you can stick a 200GB drive you got for $50 at frys in a 486 computer, if you want to access all the data, all you need is a controller card. Advancements in drive technology for now can be used with much older systems, this is not the case with ram.

Anyways, what I don't understand is why people believe "EVERYTHING HAS TO BE CACHED" into ram in order to have a fast operating system. Sure, logic would tell you that you would but then look at windows 98, look at it! It runs incredibly fast on PIII hardware and I doubt it's got these so called "Advanced caching schemes" integrated into the OS.


Look, if you're going to argue with me on my point that microsoft creates OSs that require more resources not because it's "absolutely necessary" but because they're trying to satisfy intel and give people and excuse to upgrade when in reality what they have is perfectly suitable, then you are truely the ignorant one.
And if you believe what I just said above to be true and you think it's perfectly fine and a good thing that microsoft does this, then you are a douche, and are probably a supporter of DRM.
 
What frustrates me the most about people on this forum is the fact that they refuse to observe things and think for themselves but instead base all of their knowledge on what their professors or books say. Yea thats real useful because I'm sure the book on windows 2000 is really going to talk about how every process running is critical to having an enjoyable experience in windows 2000 just like it is in Windows XP. And the fact that windows XP is using more ram to make you happy and not to put a strain on current systems so that people upgrade.. :roll:

One reason why I don't feel I need to substantiate my claims with proof is that my observations have been for the most part correct and I guess it's built up a little arrogance in me. I think the people on this forum aren't exactly "smart" but simply educated, thats at least the vibe I've gotten from people around here...
 
Hi Goku

No it wasnt aimed specifically at you... but at people that complain about increasing hardware requirements, yet want more from the code.

Look - if its a lean operating system you want... install Damn Small Linux, end of discussion

But if you want to play games on any combination of hardware you fancy chucking together, whilst keeping compatibilty for older hardware, with all the basic features a normal user would want out of the box (graphics, mail, internet, media player, search, easy interface, basic word processing, etc etc etc) then you will choose windows.)

You don't NEED glass aero, thus disable it and I bet ya there is a load of RAM freed up right there. If you want to use different software, install it, and remove what is provided (it's exactly the same with every linux distro).

The point is - microsoft for all it's perceived sins, provides exactly what 99% of computer users want (that 99% probably excludes every single one of the people on this forum including me). That is an easy to use and functional system with a pretty interface.

For everyone else (i.e. people on this forum) go choose something else. In fact go install a LFS system and live with a nice lean command line if that floats your boat.
 
I guess we shall see. The OS sounds too buggy right now. Only time will tell. It seems Microsofts kernal just gets larger with every new OS and it doesn't seem it will ever change because people want more features. Maybe not this OS but down the road, will people just say no to upgrading because of requirements? So far, this has not been the case.
 
Originally posted by: Goosemaster
Wine is slow and a bandaid, jsut like rosetta is.
Wine and rosetta are two completely different things. There is nothing inherent in the nature of Wine that makes it slow. If it is slow, it's because it hasn't been coded as efficiently as the corresponding windows libraries but that doesn't mean it couldn't be.
 
Originally posted by: kamper
Originally posted by: Goosemaster
Wine is slow and a bandaid, jsut like rosetta is.
Wine and rosetta are two completely different things. There is nothing inherent in the nature of Wine that makes it slow. If it is slow, it's because it hasn't been coded as efficiently as the corresponding windows libraries but that doesn't mean it couldn't be.

My mistake then. I thought they were both interpreters but I am probably wrong. I was under the impression that Wine would allow the reading of windows libraries in linux, and that conversion is what made it slow.

That said, my intent was not to criticize wine. Goku is grasping for straws and one of them was Wine. Don't get me wrong, Wine is really good (i've used it for a few thing).

The thing is, I point out somethign about windows, and he isntantly changes the subject to one that he hopes will invalidate my questioning....


 
Originally posted by: goku
You can add features to windows with out it hurting performance

How do you know?

you really can, problem with people on this forum is that they refuse to believe this is possible.

It is not possible to add features to anything without hurting some performance.

Make me a program that loops through a block of code (i=i+1), and record the time in ticks it takes for each loop. Then add something (i=i^44*7772/126) to the loop. If the readings come out with negligible (CPU clock fluctuation) difference at the tick level then I'll give you $500. Deal?

Hypothetical my test is, you say? Well so is your scenario. How competent is antivirus program these days if it does not hook itself into the Shell to scan files (more resources) for virii? Or a software firewall solution without SPI for that matter? SPI is typically implemented at the Winsock Layered Service Provider level and thus consumes resources.
 
Originally posted by: xtknight
Originally posted by: goku
You can add features to windows with out it hurting performance

How do you know?

you really can, problem with people on this forum is that they refuse to believe this is possible.

It is not possible to add features to anything without hurting some performance.

Make me a program that loops through a block of code (i=i+1), and record the time in ticks it takes for each loop. Then add something (i=i^44*7772/126) to the loop. If the readings come out with negligible (CPU clock fluctuation) difference at the tick level then I'll give you $500. Deal?

Hypothetical my test is, you say? Well so is your scenario. How competent is antivirus program these days if it does not hook itself into the Shell to scan files (more resources) for virii? Or a software firewall solution without SPI for that matter? SPI is typically implemented at the Winsock Layered Service Provider level and thus consumes resources.

Um believe it or not, what you said is albiet irrelevant. You can add more features with out huring performance... You keep the features resident on the HDD instead of waiting around in the system's ram.. If you wan t to say the minimal storage being used and the fact that newer programs will be forced closer to the inner platter effectively reducing performance, then what ever as that would be negligible on a 200GB HDD.. Adding a calendar program or "CALC" to windows IS A FEATURE and by having it available to run (assumes it doesn't load up automatically), it doesn't hurt performance... I would much rather have a choice of a third party program than having to be stuck with microsoft's crap as I know it would suck resources up (Like that stupid Security Control center with SP2).

Some machines that I've worked on really do not need Antivirus or spyware detection and especially that worthless "security control center" constantly nagging. I really doubt microsoft knows what people want because most people I know (The majority of people I know aren't tech savvy at all or very little) prefer the classic XP theme over that crayola crap. One reason for this is because people don't like having to relearn their applications and or usage patterns which infuriates all but people new to computers..
 
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Why does anyone care? RAM is cheap. If you have a crap computer, don't upgrade. What's the problem?

Because that computer may very well be able to run the game but because microsoft has a strangle hold on the industry, people can't use windows 2000 for example to run newer applications for absolutely no reason except to upgrade...
 
Goku.


Harddrives these days have access time in the range of 3.9 -17 MILLIseconds

Back in the DAY, PC133 SDRAM had access time of 5-7 NANOseconds.


Vista also allows you to use USB thumg drives/attached flash as additional system memory.
 
Originally posted by: goku
Originally posted by: XZeroII
Why does anyone care? RAM is cheap. If you have a crap computer, don't upgrade. What's the problem?

Because that computer may very well be able to run the game but because microsoft has a strangle hold on the industry, people can't use windows 2000 for example to run newer applications for absolutely no reason except to upgrade...

It's called development under capitalism.

Hell, you try reading the NTFS with a really old version of the Linux Kernel.

Eveyone moves on.


You have to keep in mind that the enterprise markets viewpoints are also very different than yours. windows 2003 alllows for a bunch of additional group olicies and more domain forest options than NT or 2000 had in the past.


My whole point is that yo uare treating XP as if it is made for gaming, when in fact it is a variatable Swiss army knife jsut as Linux and unix are.



 
Originally posted by: Goosemaster
Goku.


Harddrives these days have access time in the range of 3.9 -17 MILLIseconds

Back in the DAY, PC133 SDRAM had access time of 5-7 NANOseconds.


Vista also allows you to use USB thumg drives/attached flash as additional system memory.
What is your point?
 
Originally posted by: goku
Originally posted by: Goosemaster
Goku.


Harddrives these days have access time in the range of 3.9 -17 MILLIseconds

Back in the DAY, PC133 SDRAM had access time of 5-7 NANOseconds.


Vista also allows you to use USB thumg drives/attached flash as additional system memory.
What is your point?

That you keep areguing agaisnt keeping progs in system memory and for keeping them on the HD.
 
Originally posted by: Goosemaster
Originally posted by: goku
Originally posted by: Goosemaster
Goku.


Harddrives these days have access time in the range of 3.9 -17 MILLIseconds

Back in the DAY, PC133 SDRAM had access time of 5-7 NANOseconds.


Vista also allows you to use USB thumg drives/attached flash as additional system memory.
What is your point?

That you keep areguing agaisnt keeping progs in system memory and for keeping them on the HD.

Oh.. Yea, so what if ram is faster, you STILL have to load it into the ram from the HDD regardless so this essentially accomplishes nothing as I perfer a fast system boot up. How does microsoft know whether or not I'm going to be using WMPlayer or CALC or some other crap anytime soon? It doesn't so it's pointless in m opinion, caching is good for servers since usage is actually predictable...
 
Originally posted by: goku
Originally posted by: Goosemaster
Originally posted by: goku
Originally posted by: Goosemaster
Goku.


Harddrives these days have access time in the range of 3.9 -17 MILLIseconds

Back in the DAY, PC133 SDRAM had access time of 5-7 NANOseconds.


Vista also allows you to use USB thumg drives/attached flash as additional system memory.
What is your point?

That you keep areguing agaisnt keeping progs in system memory and for keeping them on the HD.

Oh.. Yea, so what if ram is faster, you STILL have to load it into the ram from the HDD regardless so this essentially accomplishes nothing as I perfer a fast system boot up. How does microsoft know whether or not I'm going to be using WMPlayer or CALC or some other crap anytime soon? It doesn't so it's pointless in m opinion, caching is good for servers since usage is actually predictable...

I doubt many professionals care about boot up times.
YOu are right to point out that server cahcing is more effective, but programmers are dilligent and they love a challenge....


Hence why IE loads up faster than FF out of the box.
 
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: goku

Are you running SP4 with latest updates? I only get memory usage that low in '2000 when I don't have those installed yet.

SP4 with nV 81.89 and nV chipset drivers... - no rollup - no IE - no updates - no mediaplayer installed. Before I install nV stuff it only uses 30MB.

I envy you? Interesting you say that bf nvidia stuff installed, only 30MBs usage. I guess I shouldn;t install IE updtates or install the newer version of media player.. Does DOTnet suck up a good portion of ram?
 
http://www.csc.calpoly.edu/~smanning/30.jpg

It shows 35 but services and tsk manager and My computer is running.. ordinarly.. on boot it's 30.

I get rid of IE and anything else MS could ever possibly connect to the web with like help, like MP, like task scheduler ...etc which MS leaves ports wide open to attack thus I don't need no stinking updates and never had a virus or malware.
 
Originally posted by: Zebo
http://www.csc.calpoly.edu/~smanning/30.jpg

It shows 35 but services and tsk manager and My computer is running.. ordinarly.. on boot it's 30.

I get rid of IE and anything else MS could ever possibly connect to the web with like help, like task scheduler which MS leaves ports wide open to attack thus I don't need no stinking updates and never had a virus or malware.

So your commit charge would be about 30MBs with out the Nvidia drivers? And IIRC the commit charge is a combo of Physical memory and the pagefile?
 
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