Vista Backup

[Navid]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: Navid
The Vista backup does not even backup executables!
This is definitely not good enough for me.

Dude put down the crack pipe and step away.

:roll:

Are you saying it does backup .exe files?
Just open your last backup and look for any .exe files. I did. There is none. You can also move your cursor over other files types and read the description on the form where you set up your file backup. It says that no system files or executables will ever be backed up.

Edit:
I am talking about file backup, not full PC backup.

 

[Navid]

Originally posted by: loup garou

Originally posted by: Navid
I would like to only backup my irreplaceable data, like music, pictures I have taken only, Word documents I have created only, etc.
I don't want to backup the programs I have installed. I already have DVDs or CDs for each program I use and I can always install them again.

I think you're confused. There are 2 types of Vista backup (in Business/Ultimate, in the Home line, there is only 1):
File Backup
Complete PC Backup

File backup will accomplish exactly what you want to do. Think of Complete PC as a built-in scheduable imaging program.

I am only talking about file backup. I am not interested in the Vista full PC backup. That is a joke. I already have Acronis and use that.

It does not do what I am talking about!
You can only specify a drive to be backed up even for file backup. You cannot specify a folder to be backed up like you could with ntbackup.
You can then specify what file types you want to be backed up from that drive.
Now, if I have lots of images that I do not want backed up, I cannot exclude them from backup. Unless, I move them to a different partition.

 

[loup garou]

Originally posted by: Navid
It does not do what I am talking about!
You can only specify a drive to be backed up even for file backup. You cannot specify a folder to be backed up like you could with ntbackup.
You can then specify what file types you want to be backed up from that drive.
Now, if I have lots of images that I do not want backed up, I cannot exclude them from backup. Unless, I move them to a different partition.

Well then say that's what you want to do! What you said is EXACTLY WHAT IT DOES:

Originally posted by: Navid
I would like to only backup my irreplaceable data, like music, pictures I have taken only, Word documents I have created only, etc.
I don't want to backup the programs I have installed. I already have DVDs or CDs for each program I use and I can always install them again.

Sheesh.

And I fail to see how Complete PC backup is a joke...I think it's an extremely useful feature.

 

[Navid]

Originally posted by: loup garou

Originally posted by: Navid
It does not do what I am talking about!
You can only specify a drive to be backed up even for file backup. You cannot specify a folder to be backed up like you could with ntbackup.
You can then specify what file types you want to be backed up from that drive.
Now, if I have lots of images that I do not want backed up, I cannot exclude them from backup. Unless, I move them to a different partition.

Well then say that's what you want to do! What you said is EXACTLY WHAT IT DOES:

I thought I did. But, OK; whatever you say!

Originally posted by: Navid
I would like to only backup my irreplaceable data, like music, pictures I have taken only, Word documents I have created only, etc.
I don't want to backup the programs I have installed. I already have DVDs or CDs for each program I use and I can always install them again.

Sheesh.

And I fail to see how Complete PC backup is a joke...I think it's an extremely useful feature.

It has some serious limitations. That's all!
Just read reviews.

 

[loup garou]

Originally posted by: Navid
I thought I did. But, OK; whatever you say!

Your posts up until this point have been very confusing. You bounce back and forth between talking about file backups and backing up installed programs, which makes it sound as if you are confused between the 2 types of backup technologies availabe in Vista. I understand if you want more flexibility in selecting which files and folders you want backed up, that is a legitimate request, and one I think we can both agree in hoping it is addressed in a fix or SP.

It has some serious limitations. That's all!
Just read reviews.

How about you just tell me what limitations? It makes a full image and is scheduable...hell, you can even load the backup as a vhd in Virtual Server/PC. What else do you require from an imaging program? Why should I read reviews when I can use it and Ghost on my Vista machines and not see any appreciable difference in what I can do with it?

 

[ginfest]

For my $0.02 I've just used Vista Backup to image my whole "C" drive and find it pretty impressive! I have about 17GB used, it only took a matter of literally a few mins and compressed it to 9GB and change.
Very convenient and easy to use.

 

[Navid]

Originally posted by: loup garou

Originally posted by: Navid
I thought I did. But, OK; whatever you say!

Your posts up until this point have been very confusing. You bounce back and forth between talking about file backups and backing up installed programs, which makes it sound as if you are confused between the 2 types of backup technologies availabe in Vista. I understand if you want more flexibility in selecting which files and folders you want backed up, that is a legitimate request, and one I think we can both agree in hoping it is addressed in a fix or SP.

It has some serious limitations. That's all!
Just read reviews.

How about you just tell me what limitations? It makes a full image and is scheduable...hell, you can even load the backup as a vhd in Virtual Server/PC. What else do you require from an imaging program? Why should I read reviews when I can use it and Ghost on my Vista machines and not see any appreciable difference in what I can do with it?

I am sorry if that is confusing.
This is what I do (and I am not saying anyone else has to do it this way):

I use an imaging utility to create an image of my OS partition after having installed all my programs. I restore this image to the same or other partitions later if needed.
My only purpose for creating this image is to speed up my occasional restore when needed. I do not do this for backing up my data. I need the output to be a single file. I need it to be small. I need to know where the file is. I need to be able to restore it to a different partition if needed. I need it to contain only one partition. I would like to be able to name the file and place it where I desire.
The Vista full backup does not offer some of these.
I once restored a Vista full backup image from partition one to partition 2 (both primary) and it wiped out the logical partition I had on the same physical hard drive.

I move my music, pictures, documents, favorites, emails etc. to a partition other than my OS partition.
This is what I need to be backed up.
I used ntbackup in XP for backing up this folder, which currently has about 1.9GB of data.
But, I also have lots of other files on the same partition that I do not need to be backed up. The size of the entire partition is almost 300GB with about 150GB of used space.
This is where I run into problem trying to use the Vista file backup. It backs up the entire partition!
I also found out that if I have a .exe file, the Vista file backup does not back it up! I have some updates to Nero version 6, which I cannot download from Nero web site anymore because they want you to buy version 7. So, I want them to be backed up. But, they are all .exe files. I also have some drivers that I cannot download anymore. They are also .exe files. So, these are my problems with Vista file backup.
ntbackup, which was available on XP, did not have any of these limitations. Its limitation, however, was that it did not have scheduling.

In my opinion, Vista is a significant improvement in some aspects.
Some who did not backup may now start backing up because Vista provides some ease.
However, for me, Vista backup (full PC and file) is not adequate.

Edit:
I only have one primary partition visible at any time. I hide all the other primary partitions. This makes the OS partition to be C always no matter which partition I boot to.
After restoring an image from partition 1 into partition 2, one needs to make a minor adjustment to it before being able to boot it. In XP, I boot to the first partition and edit boot.ini on the second partition to point to the second partition. Then, I can hide the first partition and make the second active and I am good to go.

For Vista, after restoring the image to the second partition (using Acronis imaging software), I hide the first and make the second active and use the Vista DVD and do a repair and it takes care of everything (I am not yet familiar with boot.ini Vista equivalent if there is such a thing).
I did the same thing with the Vista full PC backup image. When I did the repair with the Vista DVD, it screwed up my logical partition. So, that is a major reason I do not use the Vista imaging capability.

 

[Smilin]

You're right. The file backup only backs up based on extension, not location. If you drop an .msi or .exe file into your documents folder it will not get backed up.

The system backup backs up everything. It's also very very fast. It will detect changes via VSS on a more bit-level. So if you change a file it won't have to backup the full file like file backup does.

The problem is that system backup can't be scheduled with the same ease as safedocs which was designed with the super simple easy user interface. You would need to schedule it yourself.

Run WBADMIN and have a look. It's self documented via the command line.


Rest assured customer feedback on this whole thing IS being heard. In the meantime I hope this helps.

Bottom line tho: If you use Vista Backup the way it was intended it's a really great backup utility. If you try to use it in some hybrid or custom fashion it may disappoint. You know how it is though: If MS makes it too robust and bundles it, the backup software makers will sue for monopoly abuse....if not here then definately in the EU.

ntbackup, which was available on XP, did not have any of these limitations. Its limitation, however, was that it did not have scheduling.

What did I tell you about that crack pipe? Put it down and step away. XP backup has quite robust scheduling. RTFM


also, as a side note just in case you didn't know. If you have old .bkf files leftover from XP and need to get into them from Vista, MS has made a restore version of the old NTBackup available for a free download. I think if you search on keywords "ntbackup restore vista" you should hit it.

 

[Doom Machine]

its not designed for people who are picky.
system restore/shadow copies, backup and restore, image...
are all default out of box options that protects users from screwing themselves like they always do.
if you want to play miss picky princess then of course you need tools with advanced features such as acronis, if vista included that then it would be overly complicated to many average users and enthusiasts would complain its bloated

 

[SimMike2]

Originally posted by: Ginfest
For my $0.02 I've just used Vista Backup to image my whole "C" drive and find it pretty impressive! I have about 17GB used, it only took a matter of literally a few mins and compressed it to 9GB and change.
Very convenient and easy to use.

Same here. And it is easy to run every day or so, taking only a few minutes. I'm going to run this every two or so days, and definitely I will run it before doing anything major.

I've actually restored once from one of these image files and it worked perfectly fine.

 

[dgsg]

 

[dgsg]

 

[dgsg]

Does the "image backup" come with the Premium edition or do you need Business /Ultimate?

 

[Navid]

Is there a way to install/enable complete ntbackup (not just restore) on Vista?

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: Navid
Is there a way to install/enable complete ntbackup (not just restore) on Vista?

Not officially. If you move over the ntbackup.exe from a previous OS it will be missing some needed .dlls and other resources. It may be possible to grab those resources as well but I'm not sure what all is needed or if it would work.

Putting together the restore was fairly simple. Read .bkf, write files. On the backup side of things it leverages VSS which has some differences in Vista. I'm not sure if those differences are showstoppers or not. We're talking backups so trying something untested carries some risks with catastrphic consequences.

 

[Navid]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: Navid
Is there a way to install/enable complete ntbackup (not just restore) on Vista?

Not officially. If you move over the ntbackup.exe from a previous OS it will be missing some needed .dlls and other resources. It may be possible to grab those resources as well but I'm not sure what all is needed or if it would work.

Putting together the restore was fairly simple. Read .bkf, write files. On the backup side of things it leverages VSS which has some differences in Vista. I'm not sure if those differences are showstoppers or not. We're talking backups so trying something untested carries some risks with catastrphic consequences.

OK!

Another question for you if you don't mind!

Let's say I set up Vista's file backup to run an incremental backup every Sunday and store it on another hard drive.
Then, I create an image of my Vista installation using Acronis.
Let's say after 6 months, I need to restore my Vista image. After I do that, will the schedule backup continue to work properly?

I mean, after the restore, Vista has no record of all the backups it has made over the last 6 months other than the backup database itself. I guess my question is "Is everything Vista needs located in the backup database, or is some of the information somewhere else on the C drive"?

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: Navid

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: Navid
Is there a way to install/enable complete ntbackup (not just restore) on Vista?

Not officially. If you move over the ntbackup.exe from a previous OS it will be missing some needed .dlls and other resources. It may be possible to grab those resources as well but I'm not sure what all is needed or if it would work.

Putting together the restore was fairly simple. Read .bkf, write files. On the backup side of things it leverages VSS which has some differences in Vista. I'm not sure if those differences are showstoppers or not. We're talking backups so trying something untested carries some risks with catastrphic consequences.

OK!

Another question for you if you don't mind!

Let's say I set up Vista's file backup to run an incremental backup every Sunday and store it on another hard drive.
Then, I create an image of my Vista installation using Acronis.
Let's say after 6 months, I need to restore my Vista image. After I do that, will the schedule backup continue to work properly?

I mean, after the restore, Vista has no record of all the backups it has made over the last 6 months other than the backup database itself. I guess my question is "Is everything Vista needs located in the backup database, or is some of the information somewhere else on the C drive"?

If you took the full backup (or Acronis image in your case) the incrementals will run after your restore. The incrementals are simply a scheduled task. The scheduling info is not saved as part of the incremental backup. Same applies to all other scheduled tasks like your Wednesday defrag for instance.

It doesn't need a record of what it's done in the past. It will simply incremental the next time. If the previous incrementals (we're actually talking something closer to a differential here) dont' exist the next file backup will be a big one and subsequent ones smaller like you would expect.

 

[Pirotech]

By the way, question for Navid, have you tried to backup vista system using true image? I'd like to know how successful you restored the image?

 

[Navid]

Originally posted by: Pirotech
By the way, question for Navid, have you tried to backup vista system using true image? I'd like to know how successful you restored the image?

This is what I do. It does not mean that I am suggesting to anybody else ...

I have XP on my second primary partition. I have Acronis True Image 7 installed on it.
When I want to create an image of my Vista (first primary partition), I use Drive Image 2002 (a program I have been using for my images up to Vista) to make the first partition hidden and second partition active.

Then, I boot to XP and run True Image 7. I create an image of the second, hidden, partition containing Vista. I store all the images on the second Physical hard drive.

Later, if I want to restore Vista, I boot to XP again and use True Image 7 to restore.
I have done it many times with no problems.

I have not upgraded to True Image 10 yet because I am still not sure I am going to use Acronis for a long time. I am waiting for other products to come out. If I decide to continue with Acronis, I probably will upgrade so that I can run it directly from Vista.

 

[Navid]

I am currently trying Cobian http://www.educ.umu.se/~cobian/cobianbackup.htm for my file backups.
It runs scheduled incremental backups and backs up everything and let's me choose which folder to backup and where to store the backups.
It runs on Vista and is free.

It fails to backup my email (Outlook) files if Outlook is running when backup executes.
I am going to work on setting it up to shut down Outlook to avoid the problem. Hopefully, it will work.

How does Vista file backup handle open files?

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: Navid
How does Vista file backup handle open files?

Exceptionally well. In fact most backup utilities that handle open files gracefully are really leveraging the same VSS that Vista Backup uses. Obviously changes saved to an open file after the backup has completed that file will need to be snagged the next time around. By no means does it skip open files though. Same thing in XP, 2003, 2003r2, longhorn.

 

[Navid]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: Navid
How does Vista file backup handle open files?

Exceptionally well. In fact most backup utilities that handle open files gracefully are really leveraging the same VSS that Vista Backup uses. Obviously changes saved to an open file after the backup has completed that file will need to be snagged the next time around. By no means does it skip open files though. Same thing in XP, 2003, 2003r2, longhorn.

Can you suggest a workaround for backing up .exe files using Vista file backup?
I sent them to a compressed folder and they were still not backed up.

 

[Navid]

This link is one of many that show how to have the backup program automatically close Outlook before running a backup so that the email files get backed up.
http://joesbitbucket.blogspot.com/2006/...to-kill-outlook-before-backing-up.html

I will be using Cobian as long as the Vista file backup does not backup .exe files.

 

[Pirotech]

Originally posted by: Navid

Originally posted by: Pirotech
By the way, question for Navid, have you tried to backup vista system using true image? I'd like to know how successful you restored the image?

This is what I do. It does not mean that I am suggesting to anybody else ...

I have XP on my second primary partition. I have Acronis True Image 7 installed on it.
When I want to create an image of my Vista (first primary partition), I use Drive Image 2002 (a program I have been using for my images up to Vista) to make the first partition hidden and second partition active.

Then, I boot to XP and run True Image 7. I create an image of the second, hidden, partition containing Vista. I store all the images on the second Physical hard drive.


Later, if I want to restore Vista, I boot to XP again and use True Image 7 to restore.
I have done it many times with no problems.

I have not upgraded to True Image 10 yet because I am still not sure I am going to use Acronis for a long time. I am waiting for other products to come out. If I decide to continue with Acronis, I probably will upgrade so that I can run it directly from Vista.

ahh, i've got. So you haven't tried to backup vista usind acronis 10, i thought you were talking you tried to run true image 10 under vista os.

 

[Navid]

Originally posted by: Pirotech

Originally posted by: Navid

Originally posted by: Pirotech
By the way, question for Navid, have you tried to backup vista system using true image? I'd like to know how successful you restored the image?

This is what I do. It does not mean that I am suggesting to anybody else ...

I have XP on my second primary partition. I have Acronis True Image 7 installed on it.
When I want to create an image of my Vista (first primary partition), I use Drive Image 2002 (a program I have been using for my images up to Vista) to make the first partition hidden and second partition active.

Then, I boot to XP and run True Image 7. I create an image of the second, hidden, partition containing Vista. I store all the images on the second Physical hard drive.


Later, if I want to restore Vista, I boot to XP again and use True Image 7 to restore.
I have done it many times with no problems.

I have not upgraded to True Image 10 yet because I am still not sure I am going to use Acronis for a long time. I am waiting for other products to come out. If I decide to continue with Acronis, I probably will upgrade so that I can run it directly from Vista.

ahh, i've got. So you haven't tried to backup vista usind acronis 10, i thought you were talking you tried to run true image 10 under vista os.

You can download a free trial.
But, no, I have not tried the retail product yet.