[Videocardz] NVIDIA To Release Something 'SUPER?'

[Ajay]

Prices.So they call oficialy midrange 400+usd?Really great time for pc gamers..🙄

2080super 700usd
2070super 500usd
2060super 400usd
https://videocardz.com/81149/nvidia...ies-final-pricing-and-availbility-date-leaked

Gotta keep those profits up ya know!
Oh, and boo hiss.

 

[linkgoron]

https://videocardz.com/81105/nvidia...nd-rtx-2060-super-final-specifications-leaked
Differences:
2060 S: 2176 cores, 256-bit 8-GB memory, 175 W. Official claim is "15% AVG faster than RTX 2060" (almost no benefit from extra memory bandwidth)
2070 S: 2560 cores using TU104, 215 W (a bad sample), "16% AVG faster than RTX 2070"

Embargo ends 2019-07-02 06:00 AM PDT

In terms of performance, this looks much closer to what the original Turing lineup should've looked like IMO. 2070S being TU104, and the 2060S having 8GB memory. The 2070S will probably be enough to beat the 5700XT and probably the 5700XT AE as well.

In terms of price/perf? Terrible, but unsurprising. This will essentially make the 2070S, 2060S, 2060, 1660TI and 1660 have essentially the same price/perf (they will probably be within a 3%-5% difference), although the 2060S will at least have 8GB of memory.

Spoiler: Computerbase

 

[EXCellR8]

schlecter.

 

[amenx]

Prices.So they call oficialy midrange 400+usd?Really great time for pc gamers..🙄

2080super 700usd
2070super 500usd
2060super 400usd
https://videocardz.com/81149/nvidia...ies-final-pricing-and-availbility-date-leaked

You've been a broken record re 'mid-range' prices for years. The 2060 Super now has 256-bit bus + 8gb vram for only $50 more than the original 2060. Sounds fair to me considering the superior specs and performance todays mid-rangers have over the lower priced equivalents years ago. Are you expecting zero inflation, no rising costs for massive improvements to much more complex hardware for eternity? Get real man. 😵

edit:
Let me add further clarification since Head1985's post and my response to it have ignored some critical data points. WTF is a midrange card when the 1660ti @ $279 is not even mentioned?? I see some peeps trying to get mileage out of a very narrow based argument by only focusing on the 2060, which in my view is an aberration of traditional midrange lineups. Remember the 1660ti when someone chooses to argue 'midrange'.

 

[Shivansps]

Prices.So they call oficialy midrange 400+usd?Really great time for pc gamers..🙄

2080super 700usd
2070super 500usd
2060super 400usd
https://videocardz.com/81149/nvidia...ies-final-pricing-and-availbility-date-leaked

Here we go again, now Nvidia is price fixing to navi 10. yay.

At this rate in a few years the cheapest video card will be $1000.

 

[Glo.]

Price hike for 2060 Super may indicate that GDDR6 prices are actually quite steep. Cause you are required to use 2 GDDR6 chips more compared to standard 2060.

I think its safe at this point to say that GDDR6 chips may cost between 10 and 12$ per GDDR6 chip. Which is quite a lot...

 

[amenx]

7 years ago, we had the 660ti ( 2gb DDR5, 192-bit bus) for for $300. Based on production costs (I presume someone KNOWS the production costs of todays RTX 2060 6gb DDR6 and 8gb models) if they are going to argue that these cards should maintain that $300 point forever. Well, lets hear it.

 

[Glo.]

If each GDDR6 chip costs 10$ after volume bulk rabates - memory subsystem for 256 bit memory subsystem costs 80$, alone. Add to that GPU, add to that PCB, shrouds, etc, and suddenly you may wake up with 200$ manufacturing costs for single 445 mm2 GPU.

 

[amenx]

If each GDDR6 chip costs 10$ after volume bulk rabates - memory subsystem for 256 bit memory subsystem costs 80$, alone. Add to that GPU, add to that PCB, shrouds, etc, and suddenly you may wake up with 200$ manufacturing costs for single 445 mm2 GPU.

Are GPU manufacturers making higher margins on todays products vs years ago?

 

[Glo.]

Are GPU manufacturers making higher margins on todays products vs years ago?

GTX 1070 vs 2070? Most likely - not.

 

[Head1985]

7 years ago, we had the 660ti ( 2gb DDR5, 192-bit bus) for for $300. Based on production costs (I presume someone KNOWS the production costs of todays RTX 2060 6gb DDR6 and 8gb models) if they are going to argue that these cards should maintain that $300 point forever. Well, lets hear it.

5years ago we had GTX960 4GB for 200usd
3years ago we had GTX1060 6GB for 250usd
6months ago we had rtx2060 for 350usd
now we have RTX2060 super for 400usd
next time 3060 for 450-500usd??? and 4060 for 550-600usd?
Edit: pricing is alway about competition.Right now amd and nv price fixing so prices are crazy high.But if amd actually competes like they do vs intel in cpu space and launched midrange navi at reasonable prices how much you think rtx super would cost?
Lets say 5700 launch at 250usd and 5700xt at 329usd.Thats reasonable price for midrange polaris replacemet.
RTX2060 super would cost 279usd and 2070 super 350usd and we all would be happy.But because they price fixing we have midrange at 400-450usd and it will be worse untill someone lawsuit them or intel show up in dgpu market.

 

[linkgoron]

7 years ago, we had the 660ti ( 2gb DDR5, 192-bit bus) for for $300. Based on production costs (I presume someone KNOWS the production costs of todays RTX 2060 6gb DDR6 and 8gb models) if they are going to argue that these cards should maintain that $300 point forever. Well, lets hear it.

You could buy a 8GB GDDR5 512-bit bus R9 390 for $330 four years ago.
You could buy a 8GB GDDR5 256-bit bus RX 480 for $240 three years ago.

Nvidia's record profits and margins are also a big clue that their card prices have moved much quicker than manufacturing costs did.

Usually, as technology advances things get quite a bit cheaper. For example, see what a $330 Ryzen 3700X gives you, compared to a $315 3770K Ivy bridge seven years ago, or even a $305 7700K released 3 years ago. You're welcome to compare the Ryzen 3900x and 3950x compared to 12 and 16 cores as well from 3 years ago. However, in the last 5 or so years on the graphics side, we haven't seen this happening at anything close to the usual rate. The price of the top-end has ballooned to over $1000, while the performance for $300 has stagnated. We've barely seen a ~40% advancement in 3 years, especially since the release of Polaris and Pascal. According to TPU, the 1660TI (released Feb 2019) at $270 is about 28% faster than the 1060 (which launched at $300, July 2016) or 40% faster than the RX 480 (launched at $240 July 2016). In the same time-frame (actually a bit shorter), the 2080ti (launched September 2018) is 85% faster than the 1080 (launched may 2016) at 4K.



This is the NVidia forum. No AMD talk is allowed.
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/rules-for-the-nvidia-subforum.2435770/


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[jpiniero]

2-3 years from now, a 2060 will destroy a 1080 Ti in AAA titles due to having HW RT. But that's 2-3 years from now.

AMD of course is following suit because they need to actually make money to justify 5 nm gaming designs given how expensive they'll be. I kind of think the PS5/XB2 is going to be the last console gen ever so I don't think they can rely on that to get funding that way.

 

[amenx]

You could buy a 8GB GDDR5 512-bit bus R9 390 for $330 four years ago.
You could buy a 8GB GDDR5 256-bit bus RX 480 for $240 three years ago.

The R9 390 was a refresh from the R9 290 that was released @ $399. You know why its gone down to $330 in the R9 390? The GTX 970, thats why:

AMDs lower pricing was just to keep up with Nvidia. They were taking margin hits just to avoid losing market share (as we've seen with the vega 56 over last year or so). The RX 480 was also vs the 970 at the time of release (Rx 480 = $239. GTX 970 = $265. source: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-rx-480/ , again pricing has to take competition into account, more so for AMD than for Nvidia due to their shrinking market share. AMD has had to bite the bullet re margins on several GPUs, again, most notably V56... just to stay relevant vs Nvidia. AMDs pricing on some of their products was not reflecting a healthy business model, but rather one of desperation of clinging on to ever decreasing market share.

Nvidia's record profits and margins are also a big clue that their card prices have moved much quicker than manufacturing costs did.

Gaming is not the sole revenue source for todays more diversified Nvidia. Also the windfall of the mining boom may have had something to do with record profits a couple years ago.The RTX cards since release have been poor in sales ("lower than expected" official statement).

Usually, as technology advances things get quite a bit cheaper. For example, see what a $330 Ryzen 3700X gives you, compared to a $315 3770K Ivy bridge seven years ago, or even a $305 7700K released 3 years ago. You're welcome to compare the Ryzen 3900x and 3950x compared to 12 and 16 cores as well from 3 years ago. However, in the last 5 or so years on the graphics side, we haven't seen this happening at anything close to the usual rate.

As tech advances, generally things do get cheaper, sure. But this is NOT a blanket rule for everything tech related. GPUs are very different beast than CPUs which only consistent of dies.

The price of the top-end has ballooned to over $1000, while the performance for $300 has stagnated. We've barely seen a ~40% advancement in 3 years, especially since the release of Polaris and Pascal. According to TPU, the 1660TI (released Feb 2019) at $270 is about 28% faster than the 1060 (which launched at $300, July 2016) or 40% faster than the RX 480 (launched at $240 July 2016). In the same time-frame (actually a bit shorter), the 2080ti (launched September 2018) is 85% faster than the 1080 (launched may 2016) at 4K.

Nvidias high end pricing, esp the 2080ti is OTTP, sure, even disgusting, no arguments there. But the RTX 2060 @349 is not unreasonable (given the obviously higher manufacturing costs and added complexity vs the 1060, ie, bigger dies, more expensive GDDR6), unless you can give us a breakdown of actual cost of parts, dies, vram, etc, to demonstrate your case rather than just assuming.



This is the NVidia forum. No AMD talk allowed.
https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/rules-for-the-nvidia-subforum.2435770/


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[amenx]

Just thought I would add an overlooked point re current mid-range pricing... The 1660ti is @ $279 (and released very shortly after the 2060). That is on par with the 1070, the upper mid-range of last gen. The 2060 is on par with V64 and 20% above the 1070. So the 2060 is essentially an upper mid-ranger.

 

[mohit9206]

7 years ago, we had the 660ti ( 2gb DDR5, 192-bit bus) for for $300. Based on production costs (I presume someone KNOWS the production costs of todays RTX 2060 6gb DDR6 and 8gb models) if they are going to argue that these cards should maintain that $300 point forever. Well, lets hear it.

I heard that it costs Nvidia less than $300 to make a 2080Ti so you can imagine the kind of profit margins Nvidia is enjoying.

 

[amenx]

I heard that it costs Nvidia less than $300 to make a 2080Ti so you can imagine the kind of profit margins Nvidia is enjoying.

Source? Link? Anybody can hear anything.

 

[mohit9206]

Source? Link? Anybody can hear anything.

i just saw the most recent video posted by Moores Law is Dead and he posted source in the video description but its not opening for me.

 

[amenx]

i just saw the most recent video posted by Moores Law is Dead and he posted source in the video description but its not opening for me.

The bigger the dies, the lower the yields. So that guys speculation is useless without actual yield numbers.

 

[Glo.]

I heard that it costs Nvidia less than $300 to make a 2080Ti so you can imagine the kind of profit margins Nvidia is enjoying.

Nvidia from single 300mm silicon wafer is getting 70 GT102 dies.

It is completely excluding the yields and functionality of the dies. Each GPU, ALONE can cost Nvidia 100$. Add to that 11 GDDR6 dies, and you get 210$ for just GPU die, and GDDR6 memory. 300$ can be in the ball park of the manufacturing costs of each RTX 2080 Ti.

 

[mohit9206]

Nvidia from single 300mm silicon wafer is getting 70 GT102 dies.

It is completely excluding the yields and functionality of the dies. Each GPU, ALONE can cost Nvidia 100$. Add to that 11 GDDR6 dies, and you get 210$ for just GPU die, and GDDR6 memory. 300$ can be in the ball park of the manufacturing costs of each RTX 2080 Ti.

Yeah which is why is crazy to believe they get away with selling it for $1200.

 

[amenx]

It is completely excluding the yields and functionality of the dies...

Critical point. And how do we know the actual yields and functionality of the dies? Is there any source that publishes such data? What we do know is that bigger dies result in worse yields, functionality. Cant arrive at the numbers without all parts of the equation.

 

[Glo.]

Yeah which is why is crazy to believe they get away with selling it for $1200.

Not really. Nvidia could sell GTX 1080 Ti for 700$, because the die was almost the same size as the die of RTX 2070, and the GDDR5 memory was going at the time for 5-8$. So you could get GPU and memory subsystem for under 120$ for that GPU, with total manufacturing costs being in the ballpark of 150-200$, at best for that GPU.

RTX 2070 manufacturing costs may not be lower than manufacturing costs of GTX 1080 Ti. Hence the price hike of current GPUs.

 

[Glo.]

Critical point. And how do we know the actual yields and functionality of the dies? Is there any source that publishes such data? What we do know is that bigger dies result in worse yields, functionality. Cant arrive at the numbers without all parts of the equation.

Well, 70 dies is the best case scenario. Each 16/12 nm wafer costs 6000-6500$. You can calculate the GPU costs yourselves, guys.

 

[amenx]

Cant believe Nvidia would be so stupid to price a $300 card for $1000-1200. Not a good business model when they can double sales volume if at much lower prices, while in the end making the same profit. Even stupider when they want gaming studios to adopt RT in a much more widespread fashion. Much more compelling when RTX cards can command a much bigger market share. Very high priced RTX cards defeats that purpose.