[Videocardz] New 1080 Ti rumors

[crisium]

2010-2011 was not a fantasy land. It was 5-6 years ago.

It's fair to want to return to the good ol' days. But I think that would require the (near) impossibility of AMD getting the performance-per-watt and performance-per-die advantages size back.

 

[Arachnotronic]

You are absolutly getting ripped off by Nvidia, but if you want/need the performance there is not a lot you can do about it as they're the only ones giving you decent performance with the 1070/1080/Titan XP. If I had to get a 1440p card and had a lot of money, then I would get a 1080 knowing full well that I'm getting ripped off. If someone has a lot of money to spend I would definitely tell them to get a 1080 or better Nvidia card, however there is no doubt that he is getting monopoly prices. Especially at the Titan XP levels.

You don't have to have "a lot of money" to buy a $1200 GPU. I'm not rich. I just make sure to be thrifty on stuff that isn't important to me so that I can afford the stuff that I really want.

 

[tential]

If Nvidia is ripping people off, and the gpus are not worth the money, why are they selling?

 

[Arachnotronic]

If Nvidia is ripping people off, and the gpus are not worth the money, why are they selling?

Good question ;-)

NVIDIA GPUs are good, AMD GPUs are good. The performance we can get from either company is staggeringly awesome.

 

[USER8000]

I don't understand why some do nothing but complain of the prices of computer equipment. The price is set by market demand, if there was no demand, the prices would drop. They haven't, thus there is great demand for these products.

I think what we're seeing is the earnings divide. For some, it would take a few months to save $1200 for a GPU. For others, it would take a day or two. Wealth divide is nothing new - just something people have to learn to swallow and accept.

There are still great GPU's available for less money. RX480, 1070's are great examples of this.

Personally, I'm using a 1070FE until Vega launches.

You are underestimating how easy it is to get credit - and why so many are mired in debt in the UK.

Both UK and US personal debt has been climbing and that includes debt on credit cards and payment plans.

It was the same as why we are in this economic mess - the sub prime mortgage crisis was an example of large numbers of people borrowing money they realistically could not really afford.

 

[Arachnotronic]

You are underestimating how easy it is to get credit - and why so many are mired in debt in the UK.

Both UK and US debt has been climbing and that includes debt on credit cards and payment plans.

It is easy to get credit, but I wouldn't recommend buying any computer hardware on credit unless you can pay it off in full by the end of the month.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I live in an area of moderate COL, rent for a 2BR 1200ish sqft place is $1400 for me. I'm lucky enough to have a job in which I end up with about $500-$800 of 'spend wherever' money which has traditionally gone to paying off debt (collected a lot on my way to this point). If I wanted to, I could forgo debt payoff for 1-1.5mo and get a solid 1080, probably watercooled. That would have been a tall order for most of my life though. COL has gone up everywhere but wages sure as shit haven't.

 

[Tweak155]

I'm not a huge fan of the rising prices myself either. But let's be real, if you were selling a used vehicle and someone offered you $1000 and the next guy offered you $1500... you'd sell to the guy offering $1500.

NVidia would be STUPID to not list at these prices since people are buying them. You should whine about the buyers, not the company running a successful business.

That said, I am not buying right now because of the high prices... waiting for more competition. But clearly I'm not the only buyer out there as they are swimming in sales.

 

[linkgoron]

If Nvidia is ripping people off, and the gpus are not worth the money, why are they selling?

That's a great argument. You should tell that to companies that are selling "audiophile" power plugs, cables and especially gold plated digital and optical cables for thousands hundreds and thousands of dollars.

Edit: note, I'm not saying that Nvidia are cheating their customers as the above companies are. nvidia's higher end products actually have better and measurable performance, just that saying that something sells doesn't mean that its price isn't very high. I just think that they're inflating prices thanks to weak competition and marketing their lower end cards as higher end cards.

 

[USER8000]

It is easy to get credit, but I wouldn't recommend buying any computer hardware on credit unless you can pay it off in full by the end of the month.

Sometimes I can appreciate if someone wants to balance outgoings for a brief period if they really want something,but sometimes it is scary what people get themselves into. Sometimes its nice to want to treat yourself I suppose. However,I remember a workmate used to always buy the latest computer stuff and gadgets ,and it was mental how he got into debt and ended up having to ditch most of it in the end,since he could not really afford it.

Personally more a cut a coat according to your own cloth person myself.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Sometimes I can appreciate if someone wants to balance outgoings for a brief period if they really want something,but sometimes it is scary what people get themselves into. I remember a workmate used to always buy the latest computer stuff and gadgets ,and it was mental how he got into debt and ended up having to ditch most of it in the end,since he could not really afford it.

Personally more a cut a coat according to your own cloth person myself.

yeah, I only buy what I can afford. I also am very aggressive about selling off stuff that I don't need/use anymore to fund newer stuff. I know people who just never get around to selling valuable hardware and it ends up just losing its value.

 

[USER8000]

yeah, I only buy what I can afford. I also am very aggressive about selling off stuff that I don't need/use anymore to fund newer stuff. I know people who just never get around to selling valuable hardware and it ends up just losing its value.

Makes sense,if stuff is lying about not doing anything its loosing value.

 

[USER8000]

I'm not a huge fan of the rising prices myself either. But let's be real, if you were selling a used vehicle and someone offered you $1000 and the next guy offered you $1500... you'd sell to the guy offering $1500.

NVidia would be STUPID to not list at these prices since people are buying them. You should whine about the buyers, not the company running a successful business.

That said, I am not buying right now because of the high prices... waiting for more competition. But clearly I'm not the only buyer out there as they are swimming in sales.

At least you are not in the UK - the £ has crashed 20% meaning massive price rises for lots of electronics are starting to happen!!

At the rate we are going,its probably going to get worse next year and we might even have GTX1060 cards at the same price as the GTX1070 before the BREXIT vote.

🙁

 

[Tweak155]

At least you are not in the UK - the £ has crashed 20% meaning massive price rises for lots of electronics are starting to happen!!

At the rate we are going,its probably going to get worse next year and we might even have GTX1060 cards at the same price as the GTX1070 before the BREXIT vote.

🙁

Sucks man Hopefully you're already on a solid card

 

[Arachnotronic]

At least you are not in the UK - the £ has crashed 20% meaning massive price rises for lots of electronics are starting to happen!!

At the rate we are going,its probably going to get worse next year and we might even have GTX1060 cards at the same price as the GTX1070 before the BREXIT vote.

🙁

Dang, I am sorry to hear that 🙁

 

[USER8000]

Sucks man :-/ Hopefully you're already on a solid card 😎

Sadly not,and I have other more immediate things to spend on now. Once I get around to getting a new card,I think its going to be retarded money. Just hope the politicians in our country actually did their jobs,but they are too worried stabbing each other in the back it seems.

Dang, I am sorry to hear that 🙁

Its really not great and the £ has not been this lowest in over three decades. It really sucks to be a tech enthusiast now - either get your bargains now in the UK with Black Friday coming as next year is not looking so good.

I mean $:£ parity is a very real worry,and with 20% VAT,that would make a GTX1060 £300 to £360,or the start of GTX1070 pricing a few months ago.

That would make a GTX1060 or RX480 40% to 50% more expensive than the cheapest GTX970 or R9 390 last year!

 

[nurturedhate]

The argument that the performance today is better than yesterday is a strawman on the best of days. Of course performance increases over time, that's not special in any shape or form. Let me know when things start massively regressing despite the engineer's best efforts and then we'll talk. A 2017 Toyota Camry is better than a 2010 Toyota Camry. Would you pay $75k for one today? Apparently you would. Would you brag about how awesome it is that Toyota offers such a great Camry today for that $75k? It seemed you do. Would it be reasonable to point out that that same basic style of Camry was $25k in 2010 while you brag about your $75k Camry? Very.

You all are running around here thanking a company for offering you a product to buy.. that in of itself is insane.

Yes, Nvidia and any other company can and should charge what they can get for their product.
Yes, you can be happy with your product.
Yes, other customers can be displeased with the current cost of products.
Yes, you can talk about your $1200 card.
Yes, there absolutely should be backlash from people over massive price hikes. It's their job to help reign in corporations and help set prices, otherwise that $1200 Titan XP could be $5000 or even $10,000. That would be ok right? How about $100,000, no one has ever offered that level of performance before right?

 

[Ajay]

The argument that the performance today is better than yesterday is a strawman on the best of days. Of course performance increases over time, that's not special in any shape or form. Let me know when things start massively regressing despite the engineer's best efforts and then we'll talk. A 2017 Toyota Camry is better than a 2010 Toyota Camry. Would you pay $75k for one today? Apparently you would. Would you brag about how awesome it is that Toyota offers such a great Camry today for that $75k? It seemed you do. Would it be reasonable to point out that that same basic style of Camry was $25k in 2010 while you brag about your $75k Camry? Very.

reductio ad absurdum. Does the 2017 Toyota Camry outperform every other single car that ever existed before?
Some much angst over something we can not control.

 

[USER8000]

reductio ad absurdum. Does the 2017 Toyota Camry outperform every other single car that ever existed before?
Some much angst over something we can not control.

The only problem is a 2017 road suddenly does not need more BHP to run on than one from 2015! 😉

A road is a static target,but games are not. If not we still be stuck on a 286 and not using this new fangled "graphics card" I keep hearing about.

😛

 

[tajoh111]

That's only a partial explanation. There has been FAR less competition in the CPU space than there is in the GPU space in the last 5 years. MicroCenter has i7-6700K for $259.99 and i7-6800K for $329.99, both prices which is lower after adjusted for inflation than the MSRP of January 2011 i7-2600K. If Intel priced i7-6700K at $634 (double the price of i7-2600K), I would simply refuse to buy it. Lack of competition alone doesn't explain the willingness of so many consumers to pay double for the same historical tiers. There is a lot more to it like prices of high-end audiophile headphones have increased 2-3X in the last 5 years despite the most fierce competition.

When HiFiMan sold HE-300 for $249, we now know they still make a profit at $99. We also know that Sennheiser's HD650s which debuted at $550 are profitable even at $199.

With NV, what they are doing is following the foot-path of the overpriced audiophile industry, and sprinkling it with Apple marketing, creating an emotional attachment and desirability of the product.

Had Titan XP sold for only $499 like the GTX580, it would have never been as desirable to PC gamers and as a result the $379-449 GTX1070 and $699 GTX1080 wouldn't have looked like such an amazing value relative to the Titan XP. NV still hasn't matched Apple though as Apple charges $200 for an upgrade form an i5 to an outdated architecture generation i7 in the iMac when the entire i7-6700K costs $260 at MC. Oh, let's not forget $200 for 8GB of DDR4 memory upgrade. NV still has room to raise prices even more during Volta as Pascal is wildly successful despite record GPU prices per each GPU tier. Just goes to show that PC gamers are willing to pay even more. If mid-range die 1080 FE sold like hot cakes for $700, a $900 1080Ti will be instantly sold out by the same people who are about to dump GTX1080s on the used market. That's the missing link in NV's strategy -- since next series makes the old series obsolete and thus lose a huge amount of resale value, it will make it too costly to buy $700 cards and NOT upgrade to the next series. This gives NV leverage to price 1080Ti/2080Ti above GTX1080.

Do you know why Intels margins have no shrunk(actually growing over the years), it because they are using smaller and smaller dies because they are keeping their core counts the same and they are not increasing pricing because the performance jump is not there and they are selling you alot smaller die each time.

Nvidia does makes it more transparent with its more model numbers, Intel is doing the same if not worse.

The 6700k die size is 122mm2, the 4700k was 177m2, sandybridge was 216mm2 and lynfield was 296mm2.

And with intel v2011 platform, Intel has been selling you a chip with a more and more disabled die.

The 980x which was the first 6 core intel consumer chip equivalent xeon chip the 5600s also had a maximum of 6 cores. This means you were getting the whole die.

Starting with sandybridge, the 6 core chip actually came from a 8 core xeon chip e5 4600.

Ivybridge the 6 cores came from a 12 core chip xeon. E7-8xxx v2

Haswell e a 6 core from a 18 core xeon 2600v3

The same is with broadwell. A cut down from an 18 core processor.

What intel has been doing to decrease cost on their 6 cores is giving you a more and more disabled chip. We might be paying 400 dollars for a 6 core die compared to the 600 and 1000 we used to pay, but we are only getting a third of the cores enabled.

Atleast with Nvidia high end chips, you getting something that resembles the full die size for the price.

A titan much more resembles the full die than Intels extreme editions.

What Intel has been mostly doing is giving you the same amount of cores which means they are using a smaller die or a chip with more cores disabled. This has resulted in the terrible performance jump between generations and a smaller product that is cheaper to produce and hence why prices don't need to increase.

With Nvidia, your getting more cores, but your paying for it, but your also getting a better performance jump.

If Nvidia played the intel with no cost between generations, pascal might have the same core count as the the gtx 980 or the gtx 980 might of had the same core count as the gtx 680, just leveraging architectural improvements to sell cards.

Both are greedy, but as a tech enthusiast, i prefer the later because we atleast get progress, and Nvidia jumps in price in performance have been much higher than Intels between generations.

Thus compared to Intel, Nvidia is the less greedy of two monopoly models.

 

[pj-]

The argument that the performance today is better than yesterday is a strawman on the best of days. Of course performance increases over time, that's not special in any shape or form. Let me know when things start massively regressing despite the engineer's best efforts and then we'll talk. A 2017 Toyota Camry is better than a 2010 Toyota Camry. Would you pay $75k for one today? Apparently you would. Would you brag about how awesome it is that Toyota offers such a great Camry today for that $75k? It seemed you do. Would it be reasonable to point out that that same basic style of Camry was $25k in 2010 while you brag about your $75k Camry? Very.

You all are running around here thanking a company for offering you a product to buy.. that in of itself is insane.

Yes, Nvidia and any other company can and should charge what they can get for their product.
Yes, you can be happy with your product.
Yes, other customers can be displeased with the current cost of products.
Yes, you can talk about your $1200 card.
Yes, there absolutely should be backlash from people over massive price hikes. It's their job to help reign in corporations and help set prices, otherwise that $1200 Titan XP could be $5000 or even $10,000. That would be ok right? How about $100,000, no one has ever offered that level of performance before right?

The only backlash that matters is $$$$.

Buying an nvidia card and then complaining about how overpriced they are on a subforum with a few thousand readers is going to change NOTHING.

How many people complaining about TXP costing $1200 have a 1070 or 1080? Those cards are way bigger money makers for nvidia based on volume and if a TXP should be $350 then a 1070 should be $185 max.

Vote with your wallet, not forum posts that nobody important will ever see

Jen Huang: "These financials look great but are the folks on anandtech's forum happy?"

 

[AtenRa]

If Nvidia is ripping people off, and the gpus are not worth the money, why are they selling?

Marketing

There are enough numbers of consumers that can afford those prices and NVIDIA takes advantage of it. Also AMD helps them by not competing, so we can have a monopoly and prices are increasing.
The moment AMD will compete in the same segments, NV prices are getting more down to earth.

GTX 1060 6/3GB vs RX 480/70
GTX 1050/Ti RX 470/60

vs GTX 1080, TITAN X Pascal etc etc

 

[tential]

Marketing

There are enough numbers of consumers that can afford those prices and NVIDIA takes advantage of it. Also AMD helps them by not competing, so we can have a monopoly and prices are increasing.
The moment AMD will compete in the same segments, NV prices are getting more down to earth.

GTX 1060 6/3GB vs RX 480/70
GTX 1050/Ti RX 470/60

vs GTX 1080, TITAN X Pascal etc etc

It's a rip off to you personally but is it a rip off? I have to buy fury x, then Vega, to be current with high end amd gaming because there are no options. Or sit and wait.
Why is no one factoring in the value of lost time of not being able to game on the high end?

Or, I could get a 1080/1070 now and be set.

It's a rip off if you look at purely a few factors in a vacuum. But factor in time.... And it's a formula of how much you value your time..

Lots of people recommend you to stick with the 290 if you have one. I value my time more and more. I won't stick with performance that's below my threshold I can stand anymore. I'll just buy when I'm ready. It's a happier experience than waiting for ages to buy the next amd card and risk being letdown when it debuts (ie. Fury x)

 

[tential]

To give an example, I'll buy fury x this month(a gpu I don't even want) for 320 when I could get a 1070 for 380.

I need the 8gb vram so I'll need to upgrade to Vega soon as well. So I can buy an "overpriced" 1070 and be happy for awhile, or a fury x + Vega which will cost more.

Or I can not game at all for lack of a high power gpu.

Just because the price is more doesn't mean the total cost of ownership over the lifetime of the gpu usage will be higher than the "cheaper" competition

Many times, if you want to game at all using a high end gpus waiting or Nvidia is your only option. It makes sense those people willing to speng a decent chunk of change also aren't willing to wait 6 months or more for an alternative.

 

[Dave2150]

Do you know why Intels margins have no shrunk(actually growing over the years), it because they are using smaller and smaller dies because they are keeping their core counts the same and they are not increasing pricing because the performance jump is not there and they are selling you alot smaller die each time.

Nvidia does makes it more transparent with its more model numbers, Intel is doing the same if not worse.

The 6700k die size is 122mm2, the 4700k was 177m2, sandybridge was 216mm2 and lynfield was 296mm2.

And with intel v2011 platform, Intel has been selling you a chip with a more and more disabled die.

The 980x which was the first 6 core intel consumer chip equivalent xeon chip the 5600s also had a maximum of 6 cores. This means you were getting the whole die.

Starting with sandybridge, the 6 core chip actually came from a 8 core xeon chip e5 4600.

Ivybridge the 6 cores came from a 12 core chip xeon. E7-8xxx v2

Haswell e a 6 core from a 18 core xeon 2600v3

The same is with broadwell. A cut down from an 18 core processor.

What intel has been doing to decrease cost on their 6 cores is giving you a more and more disabled chip. We might be paying 400 dollars for a 6 core die compared to the 600 and 1000 we used to pay, but we are only getting a third of the cores enabled.

Atleast with Nvidia high end chips, you getting something that resembles the full die size for the price.

A titan much more resembles the full die than Intels extreme editions.

What Intel has been mostly doing is giving you the same amount of cores which means they are using a smaller die or a chip with more cores disabled. This has resulted in the terrible performance jump between generations and a smaller product that is cheaper to produce and hence why prices don't need to increase.

With Nvidia, your getting more cores, but your paying for it, but your also getting a better performance jump.

If Nvidia played the intel with no cost between generations, pascal might have the same core count as the the gtx 980 or the gtx 980 might of had the same core count as the gtx 680, just leveraging architectural improvements to sell cards.

Both are greedy, but as a tech enthusiast, i prefer the later because we atleast get progress, and Nvidia jumps in price in performance have been much higher than Intels between generations.

Thus compared to Intel, Nvidia is the less greedy of two monopoly models.

I think you are very wrong.

For the vast majority of mainstream i7 owners (quad cores) - they'd see absolutely no gain from a 6 or 8 core CPU, as the software they use doesn't show any benefit from additional cores.

Heck, even dual core CPU's are able to satisfy the needs of the majority. It's only in the last year or two that quad cores have been required for a good gaming experience in AAA titles.

If Intel had made the 6700k a 6 core CPU - it wouldn't have been capable of the same clock speeds, thus it would have actually been slower in most games/everyday tasks, as clock speed is still very important.

TLDR - More cores = less clockspeed. 90% of consumer software doesn't scale beyond 3-4 cores, thus 6 cores are pointless for the majority.

For those that do use software that's multi-threaded beyond 3-4 cores, there's the X99 lineup of 6, 8 and 10 cores, plus the xeon route of 22 cores, you just have to pay for them 😉