Video Upgrade for older P3 - Advice Needed

[MacDubhgal]

You've all seen it before, but I am in desperate need. System Specs:

PIII 733Mhz (soon to upgrade to 1 Ghz via a chip I got free - no CPU cooler yet - looking)
Intel 815e Chipset
ATX style Slim Desktop chassis
133Mb FSB
512 Mb PC133 SDRAM (Maxed out for this machine - 1 Gb/s Max Throughput)
AGP 4X (2.0)
200 Watt PSU (with a possible 300-350 Watt PSU about to be given to me by a generous friend)

If it helps at all, here's a link to the Tech reference PDF for my machine. It's big (couple hundred pages) so click advisedly (dialup users beware!) Deskpro EN Tech Reference Guide pdf

Yeah, ok.. It's ancient, but it's all I can afford for now. I think I've provided enough info to get a decent answer from those in the know. If you need more or different info, let me know here, and I'll be happy to post it.

SO... on to the question...

My GeForce2 Ti is dying from heat exhaustion (Fan is crapping out). Given the price of the next several generations of Video Card, I want to upgrade to something a tad more robust (read, best card I can put in the box without melting either the card or the Motherboard). I figure I can afford to do this since the limitations of the system itself will limit what I can purchase.

Given the PSU and other limitations, I have narrowed things down a bit, but want advice on whether I have gone wrong somewhere, or if anyone has viable alternative ideas.

I was looking originally at the Radeon line (due to excellent reviews for recent cards) but every one of them appears to require a minimum 300 Watt PSU, which I can't guarantee I'll be able to provide yet (300-350 Watt PSU to be picked up this week, hopefully). Also, I've been informed by Compaq pros that the Radeon 9x00 line will likely have issues with my BIOS, which is as updated as it's gonna get (current).

Given all that, I started looking at the NVidia FX line. The 5200U got great reviews in its' day, though it too would require a PSU upgrade (250 Watt Min. recommended for most of those I could find requirements for). The previous NVidia flagship appears to be the GeForce 4Ti 4600. This one doesn't have any Power Minimum requirements that I can find, so I'm assuming that it'd be the way to go. I've been informed elsewhere that though it lacks DirectX 9 support, it actually outperforms the 5200U in many cases, and is less system draining. It's been damned hard to track one down, but I have found a few outlets that still appear to carry them (Chaintech for the most part). I've also dug a few up on Ebay. I assume DirectX 9 games will probably not be abkle to run on this old beast anyway, so compatability with DirectX 9 isn't a huge consideration. Naturally, if I can get it, I want it. lol.

The 5200U is still readily available, so no worries there.

SO, Questions:

1) Is anyone aware if I will likely run into any problems upgrading my PSU to something able to support a newer more powerful Video Card?

2) Any recommendations as to PSU makers or specs I should look out for or try to find?

3) GeForce FX 5200U vs. GeForce4 Ti 4600 - Opinions?

4) Am I all screwed up on my research and can I look for something a little newer if I upgrade my PSU? Should I get a Radeon under these conditions? Which one, based on my System Specs? Or will the system specs listed above make that pointless?

5) Do you see any obvious flaws in my approach or logic in tackling this? Please point them out to me!!

I have been reading for days and my eyes are on the verge of popping out of my head. Absolute latest game capability is not necessary. I realize I have to toss this puppy and replace it, but I'm currently unemployed and that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. Primarily I play Morrowind and a few similar generation games, and I use Poser and Daz Bryce rather extensively. The prettiest picture and some processing power are extremely important to me, but not to the point of Overclocking or seriously fiddling with a card as sold.

Any help the Experts can provide is more than truly appreciated. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.


Humbly bowing to the Pros... MacDubhgal

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Firstly, welcome to the forums! Always nice to see a new poster that's done their research, provided lots of info, and posted in the right place on the first try. 😀

Originally posted by: MacDubhgal
1) Is anyone aware if I will likely run into any problems upgrading my PSU to something able to support a newer more powerful Video Card?

2) Any recommendations as to PSU makers or specs I should look out for or try to find?

You won't need to upgrade your video card unless you go to a 9800Pro or something requiring a dedicated power rail. I ran an Athlon XP setup with a 9800Pro on a 185W PSU just fine. P3's suck even less juice. You're OK with anything from the gF4 Ti series and up to a Radeon 9600XT.

3) GeForce FX 5200U vs. GeForce4 Ti 4600 - Opinions?

Ti4600. The FX5200, even the Ultra, is woefully underpowered.

4) Am I all screwed up on my research and can I look for something a little newer if I upgrade my PSU? Should I get a Radeon under these conditions? Which one, based on my System Specs? Or will the system specs listed above make that pointless?

Based on the above, I'd go for at most a geForce4 Ti4200, or a Radeon 9600 (non-SE) - those will probably be bottlenecked by your CPU/motherboard architechture's throughput.

5) Do you see any obvious flaws in my approach or logic in tackling this? Please point them out to me!!

Not really. You've done your homework, you don't expect magical powers to be endowed upon your aging machine by a new video card, and you read reviews on your two choices. 🙂

That being said, consider this.

The machine I'm typing on is almost identical to yours - a P3/733, 512MB, i815E, with a gF4 MX. I ran Doom 3 on it. Poorly, but it ran. So don't give up hope. 😀

- M4H

 

[MacDubhgal]

That is some of the best news I've heard all day! SO nice to run into someone who appreciates my wordy style of posting. I know a lot of folks just don't want to be bothered with the reading. LOL.

Based on what I'm finding, it looks like the 9600 is the way to go. Its' form factor would fit in my current rig without my having to remove a drive, which I really don't want to do. Should I bother with an XT or Pro version do you think? Prices seem decent enough. And I'll be off to check comparison guides on different versions, but do you have any recommendations as to manufacturers as far as feature sets or fan effectiveness? This last fan debacle has me a little leary about dying cheapie fans and mounting temperatures.

As far as monitoring my system post-install, what should I be keeping an eye out for as far as board failure goes? Other than the obvious black screen or horrendous display? Thanks again! Your response was literate, precise, and a pleasure to read.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: MacDubhgal
That is some of the best news I've heard all day! SO nice to run into someone who appreciates my wordy style of posting. I know a lot of folks just don't want to be bothered with the reading. LOL.

Based on what I'm finding, it looks like the 9600 is the way to go. Its' form factor would fit in my current rig without my having to remove a drive, which I really don't want to do. Should I bother with an XT or Pro version do you think? Prices seem decent enough. And I'll be off to check comparison guides on different versions, but do you have any recommendations as to manufacturers as far as feature sets or fan effectiveness? This last fan debacle has me a little leary about dying cheapie fans and mounting temperatures.

As far as monitoring my system post-install, what should I be keeping an eye out for as far as board failure goes? Other than the obvious black screen or horrendous display? Thanks again! Your response was literate, precise, and a pleasure to read.

Well, depending on the ventilation in your case, you could get a regular 9600, non-SE, non-Pro/XT, and find a manufacturer that uses passive cooling only. No fan to fail, no worry. 🙂 As long as the ventilation is adequate, the newer cards can actually run cooler than old models.

I'm a little concerned about the "form factor" bit you posted though. The PDF was good for mechanical info, but if you could get a picture of the inside of your case that would be better. Low-profile (short) cards usually have a 64-bit memory bus, and offer significantly less performance than the full-height card. Again, a picture speaks louder than words here - even if you have to do an MS-Paint mockup. 😀

For monitoring, google for Speedfan or MBM5 (discontinued but still good) - they'll let you monitor the temperature of your board, CPU, and any other sensors such as hard drives. Warning signs would be a hugely high temperature in any of those, but again, with even a single case fan, plus powersupply in that unit you can probably stuff in anything short of a geForce 6800 and not worry. 🙂

- M4H

 

[TStep]

I see you are on a strict budget and looking towards a 9600 card. In putting together a rig for my parents, I was also looking for a very cost effective solution. I placed my order for a GIGABYTE ATI RADEON 9550 over the weekend. For $50ish, it was the best 128bit deal I could find, other than a few used Ti4200s, and a little overclocking gets into the 9600-9600pro range. Maybe not the best overclocker since it's a refurb, but I takes me chances😉

The primary reason I went with the 9550 over the Ti was merely the guarantee of very good 2D on the DVI connector since it will be coupled with a 19" LCD. Also, draws little power compared to today's beasts.

 

[Munky]

If you're looking for a card on a budget, either go for a radeon 9600 (meke sure it's the 128 bit version) or a used gf4600. And avoid the 5xxx cards like the plague.

 

[CraigRT]

Originally posted by: munky
If you're looking for a card on a budget, either go for a radeon 9600 (meke sure it's the 128 bit version) or a used gf4600. And avoid the 5xxx cards like the plague.

well there are some OK 5xxx cards, but only something like the 5700Ultra and up.
other than that, yes, they do suck. 🙂

 

[MacDubhgal]

Crap. IE ate my post. I wonder if Bill Gates suffers from sleepless nights over the fact that he's a money-sucking creep who supports mediocrity? Somehow I doubt it. May he suffer painful boils. Here we go again.

Mercenary: I was referring to the fact that the case is a standard desktop style, as opposed to a Tower. Full height cards fit in it no problem, but anything longer than standard AGP spec length runs into trouble because the left-hand bay that holds my CD burner is right behind the AGP slot. Standard cards fit fine, but a longer one like the 4600Ti would necessitate remnoval of the Burner to allow the card to fit. Here's another pdf link to illustrate the case interior. Pages 10 and 12 have pretty decent pix of the case interior from different angles.

Given the length issue, I figure a 9600 will fit, and I could pick up a slot fan I found which has writeups indicating decent specs cooling and sound-wise. I have 3 open PCI slots, and the fan is designed to be lined up pointed at the video card. Looking at the 9600 line, I found the Sapphire Ultimate 9600XT. A little pricier than I had originally been looking for, but it has a passive cooling solution with a heatsink that wraps over the top and cools both sides of the card, and a heatpipe for further dissipation. I figure the card along with an intriguing fan I found - the Vantec SP-FC70-BL Spectrum Fan Card should provide a pretty decent combo for keeping the card at optimum operating temperatures. The fan fits in a PCI slot (I have three open, so no problem there) and would be pointed pretty much straight at the card in the AGP slot, so hopefully that combo will do the trick.

Compaq, at one time, offered a cooling solution that was basically a standard 90mm case fan mounted paralell to the MoBo on a 90 degree angled air redirector that was supposed to suck hot air up from above the Processor heatsink and blow it out the back fin grate through the redirector. It doesn't seem to be available any more, but I think I can fabricate the redirector pretty easily myself out of sheet metal and pick up a Silent Case fan to mount on it. The two fans in concert, I'm hoping, will move enough air to resolve any heat problems. Any thoughts you have on all this are more than welcome.

From what I have read, the 9600XT Ultimate draws about the same power (or less) than the standard 9600, and I may be able to run it on the PSU I have installed currently (though I fully intend to follow up with my buddy and see if I can get a 350 Watt PSU off of him and get that running. If that doesn't work, I may splurge and pick up a decent PSU anyway. It's not like they're all that expensive. If you have any recommendations as to models or brands on those, I'd be more than happy to hear them.

Tstep, Munky and Craigrt: Thanks for the input folks! From what you guys and Mercenary had said, I wound up reading further on both the Radeon 9x00 lines and the NVidia 5x00's. From what I can see, you guys are dead on the money, and the 9600 has system specs that seem to indicate I could run it in my machine. The XT is a tad more expensive than the standard, but from what I've read, it seems to use the same power (or less!) as the standard 9600, and may well run cooler. Add the passive cooling and a sweet software/hartdware bundle, and it looks like a pretty sweet deal! I figure I'd rather have a card that's a little beefier than my system can necassarily take advantage of than one that's a little underfeatured, and it'll be money well spent. As long as I can run it on my system, then that sounds like the way to go to me!

So that's where I'm at right now. Did I miss anything? Anyone see anything I missed? lol. Thanks again, everyone, for all the help!

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Firstly, welcome to the forums! Always nice to see a new poster that's done their research, provided lots of info, and posted in the right place on the first try. 😀

Originally posted by: MacDubhgal
1) Is anyone aware if I will likely run into any problems upgrading my PSU to something able to support a newer more powerful Video Card?

2) Any recommendations as to PSU makers or specs I should look out for or try to find?

You won't need to upgrade your video card unless you go to a 9800Pro or something requiring a dedicated power rail. I ran an Athlon XP setup with a 9800Pro on a 185W PSU just fine. P3's suck even less juice. You're OK with anything from the gF4 Ti series and up to a Radeon 9600XT.

3) GeForce FX 5200U vs. GeForce4 Ti 4600 - Opinions?

Ti4600. The FX5200, even the Ultra, is woefully underpowered.

4) Am I all screwed up on my research and can I look for something a little newer if I upgrade my PSU? Should I get a Radeon under these conditions? Which one, based on my System Specs? Or will the system specs listed above make that pointless?

Based on the above, I'd go for at most a geForce4 Ti4200, or a Radeon 9600 (non-SE) - those will probably be bottlenecked by your CPU/motherboard architechture's throughput.

5) Do you see any obvious flaws in my approach or logic in tackling this? Please point them out to me!!

Not really. You've done your homework, you don't expect magical powers to be endowed upon your aging machine by a new video card, and you read reviews on your two choices. 🙂

That being said, consider this.

The machine I'm typing on is almost identical to yours - a P3/733, 512MB, i815E, with a gF4 MX. I ran Doom 3 on it. Poorly, but it ran. So don't give up hope. 😀

- M4H

thats the ticket right there...the ti4200 is still the best cheap card to buy, and u can pick them up for less than $70. please stay away from any 5200's, 5600's from nvidia. stay away from the 9200se, the 9200's, 9600se from Ati

as you say your on a tight budget, so picking the right card matters as itll have to last

my suggestions are

Nvidia Ti 4x00
Ati 9600/pro, possibly a 9500pro/ or straight 9500 for the softmod

you can find these on ebay, or possibly in the FS/FT forums here

if you are wanting to buy new then look at the 9600. would a 6200 (agp one with 128bit bus and 128 RAM) be in his price range? that would be a good card to have