Video of San Francisco BART police officer appearing to execute suspect who is lying on the ground

[Sedition]

Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone

Originally posted by: Vic

Good.

Look, he made the decision to become a cop. As they say, with great power comes great responsibility. If he didn't want the responsibility that came with the power of being a cop, then he shouldn't have become a cop. Period.

Or like I said just a few posts ago, it's hard to be a doctor too, but that doesn't excuse malpractice.

The irony I see in your posts is that I have never had the sense you are a law-and-order guy generally (though I may be off base on that - it's not as though you and I know each other, other than your virulent insults toward me in the past).

I am not trying to make excuses for this officer - I am just wary of sending someone to prison for decades for making what you have already conceded appears to be a mistake. By way of illustration, as you have observed, doctors and lawyers can be accused of malpractice, but they have insurance companies to defend them and in most instances malpractice cases are not license-threatening. In no case is a doctor or lawyer who makes an innocent mistake faced with criminal consequences, much less a felony conviction and corresponding prison term.

I don't disagree that there should be consequences for this officer, but assuming this is murder and arguing that it should be punished as such is, to me, premature and unfair. I would need to hear a LOT more before I'd be convinced that this case warranted that kind of treatment.

I assume that you feel soldiers who injure or kill their colleagues through friendly fire should be imprisoned as well? If not, what's the difference from your perspective?

Doctors can and do go to jail for Gross Malpractice.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Sedition

Doctors can and do go to jail for Gross Malpractice.

Never having heard of such a prosecution (despite having worked as a criminal prosecutor and defense attorney, and as a medical law lawyer as well), I had to look this one up.

This is an extraordinarily rare occurence.

Consider that, between 1809 and 1981, approximately 15 criminal cases involved the prosecution of a physician for medical malfeasance1; by contrast, between 1985 and 2004, another 15 cases were heard in US courts?every one involving the death of one or more patients.

The horrific cases referenced on that site are representative of the kind of situation that leads to these kinds of prosecutions. Both involve truly aggravated negligence on the part of the doctor (e.g., performing surgery while under the influence of street drugs) that is not present in this case.

 

[Arkaign]

He should be tried under the exact same judgment and circumstances as if he were a regular citizen who just happened to pull a gun and blow someone away randomly.

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: smack Down
Time for the needle in the cops arm?

http://carlosmiller.com/2009/0...-carrying-a-taser-gun/

Or do the apologist need more proof?

Also can anyone give a valid justification for the California Public Safety Officers Bill of Rights Act.

Would never happen.


Negligent Homicide, he'll do a hard 15.

How is it negligent homicide?

Because if you believe the guy just felt like killing someone, you are blinded by your hate for authority.

He screwed up, and deserves to pay for it. Pretending he wanted to end his life over shooting one punk in front of a bunch of people just makes you look stupid.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

A person is dead because someone pulled out a gun and shot them.

That person is a LEO, so we next consider whether he was in danger/justified to use lethal force.

Video evidence shows that he was in no danger.

We then consider whether an accidental mishap of pulling the wrong weapon led to the death. We discuss the possibility that the guy had a gun-shaped taser, and pulled the wrong handle.

Please show me evidence of any police department that instructs LEO's to place "non-lethal" tasers next to their gun...

...because it seems that we're now presented with evidence that the likelihood of gun/taser confusion is NADDA, NIL, ZERO, BADDA-BING, BADDA-BOOM.

If you want to present the argument that the LEO went for his wizard wand instead of a gun, go right ahead.

Of course you do realize that the Bart officers only just received their tazers in December of 08. This throws a big monkey wrench in your theory as a lot of police training (when dealing with certain situations) is based on repetitive muscle memorization exercises. So one can easily make the argument that this guy had via stress, habit and training grabbed the wrong weapon.

 

[Steeplerot]

And this officer is FINALLY arrested: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...9/01/13/BAM615A08A.DTL
13 days!!
Now Oakland and the Bay Area can start the justice/healing process.


The BART police officer who fatally shot an unarmed man on an Oakland train platform and then refused to explain his actions to investigators was arrested Tuesday in Nevada on suspicion of murder, authorities said.


Johannes Mehserle, 27, of Lafayette was taken into custody in Douglas County, Nev., said Deputy Steve Velez of the Douglas County sheriff's office. The arrest was also confirmed by David Chai, chief of staff to Oakland Mayor Ron Dellums.

Mehserle was arrested in the New Year's Day shooting of Oscar Grant, a 22-year-old supermarket worker from Hayward who was lying facedown after being pulled off a BART train by police investigating a fight. An Alameda County judge signed an arrest warrant alleging murder, and Mehserle surrendered without incident, authorities said.

The shooting, which was recorded by passengers in videos widely circulated on the Internet and television, prompted public outrage, and some viewers said that the shooting appeared to be an execution.

Sources said Mehserle was in Nevada because he feared for his safety after death threats were made against him. Douglas County is 15 miles south of Carson City in northwestern Nevada and includes part of Lake Tahoe.

Mehserle's attorney, Christopher W. Miller of Sacramento, confirmed early today that his client was arrested on suspicion of murder. He said he would not comment further until a news conference today.

Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff was expected to announce details of the arrest today.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
And this officer is FINALLY arrested: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...9/01/13/BAM615A08A.DTL
13 days!!
Now Oakland and the Bay Area can start the justice/healing process.


The BART police officer who fatally shot an unarmed man on an Oakland train platform and then refused to explain his actions to investigators was arrested Tuesday in Nevada on suspicion of murder, authorities said.


Johannes Mehserle, 27, of Lafayette was taken into custody in Douglas County, Nev., said Deputy Steve Velez of the Douglas County sheriff's office. The arrest was also confirmed by David Chai, chief of staff to Oakland Mayor Ron Dellums.

Mehserle was arrested in the New Year's Day shooting of Oscar Grant, a 22-year-old supermarket worker from Hayward who was lying facedown after being pulled off a BART train by police investigating a fight. An Alameda County judge signed an arrest warrant alleging murder, and Mehserle surrendered without incident, authorities said.

The shooting, which was recorded by passengers in videos widely circulated on the Internet and television, prompted public outrage, and some viewers said that the shooting appeared to be an execution.

Sources said Mehserle was in Nevada because he feared for his safety after death threats were made against him. Douglas County is 15 miles south of Carson City in northwestern Nevada and includes part of Lake Tahoe.

Mehserle's attorney, Christopher W. Miller of Sacramento, confirmed early today that his client was arrested on suspicion of murder. He said he would not comment further until a news conference today.

Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff was expected to announce details of the arrest today.

Good news. This cop gets to pick whether he'll be tried by a jury or judge right? He will probably choose judge trial I'd think.

How I would love to be on the jury to convict this a$$hole and send him away for 20 years.

 

[Zebo]

Note to boot lickers: See camera grab it and destroy it. Murder is easy then.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: smack Down
Time for the needle in the cops arm?

http://carlosmiller.com/2009/0...-carrying-a-taser-gun/

Or do the apologist need more proof?

Also can anyone give a valid justification for the California Public Safety Officers Bill of Rights Act.

As I said above, the fact that he didn't have a taser that night does not rule out the possibility that he thought he grabbed a taser if he was in the habit of carrying one.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: wkabel23
cop apologists are amazing. this guy is clearly a bad apple, but y'all still shield him. what he did was inexcusable and he should face the consequences for it.

Who in this thread is disagreeing with that? Who in this thread thinks the guy is guilty of anything less than manslaughter?

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Zebo
Rule # 2 of gun safety is: Never let the muzzle of a gun point at anything you do not want to destroy or kill.
http://www.bobtuley.com/safety_rules.htm

Why are cops immune from this rule and use their guns to threaten suspects all the time? Obviously this rule is in place so senseless murders like this do not happen when emotions like racism, rage, or feelings of usurping the weapons holder authority take over among other things. Cops in general are control freaks on a power trip - I'm sure this young man who was killed, egged on by his troop, resisted, talked shit, and maybe even swung at cop - this did not sit well with the cop so he blasted him. That is a 2nd degree murder. A rage killing no different than stumbling upon your old lady with another guy and blasting them.

I have to disagree. The video does not show any sort of evidence of this officer being blinded by rage and out of control. The video does in fact show his reaction as being somewhat surprised and confused once the gun goes off. If he were to be charged with 2nd degree murder he would walk period.

I agree he would walk because of boot lickers like you out there. OTOH - If a citizen shot an unarmed man like this video showed you'd be the first to vote conviction.

A citizen is unlikely to find himself in the exact same situation. But if a citizen killed someone in a way that suggested that killing may not have been their intention, we'd be having the same conversation.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Zebo
Rule # 2 of gun safety is: Never let the muzzle of a gun point at anything you do not want to destroy or kill.
http://www.bobtuley.com/safety_rules.htm

Why are cops immune from this rule and use their guns to threaten suspects all the time? Obviously this rule is in place so senseless murders like this do not happen when emotions like racism, rage, or feelings of usurping the weapons holder authority take over among other things. Cops in general are control freaks on a power trip - I'm sure this young man who was killed, egged on by his troop, resisted, talked shit, and maybe even swung at cop - this did not sit well with the cop so he blasted him. That is a 2nd degree murder. A rage killing no different than stumbling upon your old lady with another guy and blasting them.

I have to disagree. The video does not show any sort of evidence of this officer being blinded by rage and out of control. The video does in fact show his reaction as being somewhat surprised and confused once the gun goes off. If he were to be charged with 2nd degree murder he would walk period.

I agree he would walk because of boot lickers like you out there. OTOH - If a citizen shot an unarmed man like this video showed you'd be the first to vote conviction.

A citizen is unlikely to find himself in the exact same situation. But if a citizen killed someone in a way that suggested that killing may not have been their intention, we'd be having the same conversation.

I've been in that situation at least twice but I did'nt pull out my gun and blow the guy away.

Once I was sitting in a movie with my wife and this scum bag reached over the seat and grabed my wife purse. I caught him out of the corner of my eye and he took off. I grabbed him outside and slammed him to pavement until security got there I chocked him and popped him a couple times. But no shooting.

Another time this yahoo next door was beating his wife. I kicked in the door and whipped his ass GnP sytle until cops showed up (i was only 20 lot dumber then) but I did not shoot him.

I always carry but never pulled it on anyone for this very reason. I would have probably shot both and of course been tried for murder.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Zebo

I've been in that situation at least twice but I did'nt pull out my gun and blow the guy away.

Once I was sitting in a movie with my wife and this scum bag reached over the seat and grabed my wife purse. I caught him out of the corner of my eye and he took off. I grabbed him outside and slammed him to pavement until security got there I chocked him and popped him a couple times. But no shooting.

Another time this yahoo next door was beating his wife. I kicked in the door and whipped his ass GnP sytle until cops showed up (i was only 20 lot dumber then) but I did not shoot him.

I always carry but never pulled it on anyone for this very reason. I would have probably shot both.

Gee, thanks. Your examples of situations where no one died are really relevant and add a lot to the conversation.

I guess you didn't understand my post.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Zebo

I've been in that situation at least twice but I did'nt pull out my gun and blow the guy away.

Once I was sitting in a movie with my wife and this scum bag reached over the seat and grabed my wife purse. I caught him out of the corner of my eye and he took off. I grabbed him outside and slammed him to pavement until security got there I chocked him and popped him a couple times. But no shooting.

Another time this yahoo next door was beating his wife. I kicked in the door and whipped his ass GnP sytle until cops showed up (i was only 20 lot dumber then) but I did not shoot him.

I always carry but never pulled it on anyone for this very reason. I would have probably shot both.

Gee, thanks. Your examples of situations where no one died are really relevant and add a lot to the conversation.

I guess you didn't understand my post.

I understood it fine. Stupid as usual. You know damn well any civilian would be tried for 2nd degree murder caught on tape like this apprehending someone and then pulling out a gun and shooting him.

You ever heard the expression 'seeing red'? Thats what happened here.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Zebo

I've been in that situation at least twice but I did'nt pull out my gun and blow the guy away.

Once I was sitting in a movie with my wife and this scum bag reached over the seat and grabed my wife purse. I caught him out of the corner of my eye and he took off. I grabbed him outside and slammed him to pavement until security got there I chocked him and popped him a couple times. But no shooting.

Another time this yahoo next door was beating his wife. I kicked in the door and whipped his ass GnP sytle until cops showed up (i was only 20 lot dumber then) but I did not shoot him.

I always carry but never pulled it on anyone for this very reason. I would have probably shot both.

Gee, thanks. Your examples of situations where no one died are really relevant and add a lot to the conversation.

I guess you didn't understand my post.

I understood it fine. Stupid as usual. You know damn well any civilian would be tried for 2nd degree murder caught on tape like this apprehending someone and then pulling out a gun and shooting him.

Yeah, like I said - a citizen isn't likely to be in the exact same situation. A citizen doesn't typically carry both a gun and a taser (even if this guy was not carrying a taser on that night, he apparently did at other times), and it's hard to say that you thought your gun was a taser if you don't have one. So stop trying to put a citizen into the officer's position, because police officers have a duty to do things that citizens may not even be allowed to do.

There are however many situations in which a citizen ends another citizen's life and is convicted of only manslaughter. The crime of manslaughter exists for a reason. So we're back to whether or not the officer intended to shoot the kid. You have concluded definitively that there is no way that the officer did not intend to shoot the kid. There is no doubt in your mind that it was intentional, cold-blooded murder. I have an open mind and am willing to consider the possibility that it wasn't intentional. As has been discussed, there are scenarios that fit what we see in the video that are not intentional murder, all of which still leave the officer guilty of murder.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

that wasn't a situation needing a taser either.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
that wasn't a situation needing a taser either.

I agree with that 100% The cops are way too "quick on the draw" to taser people.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
And this officer is FINALLY arrested: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...9/01/13/BAM615A08A.DTL
13 days!!
Now Oakland and the Bay Area can start the justice/healing process.


The BART police officer who fatally shot an unarmed man on an Oakland train platform and then refused to explain his actions to investigators was arrested Tuesday in Nevada on suspicion of murder, authorities said.


Johannes Mehserle, 27, of Lafayette was taken into custody in Douglas County, Nev., said Deputy Steve Velez of the Douglas County sheriff's office. The arrest was also confirmed by David Chai, chief of staff to Oakland Mayor Ron Dellums.

Mehserle was arrested in the New Year's Day shooting of Oscar Grant, a 22-year-old supermarket worker from Hayward who was lying facedown after being pulled off a BART train by police investigating a fight. An Alameda County judge signed an arrest warrant alleging murder, and Mehserle surrendered without incident, authorities said.

The shooting, which was recorded by passengers in videos widely circulated on the Internet and television, prompted public outrage, and some viewers said that the shooting appeared to be an execution.

Sources said Mehserle was in Nevada because he feared for his safety after death threats were made against him. Douglas County is 15 miles south of Carson City in northwestern Nevada and includes part of Lake Tahoe.

Mehserle's attorney, Christopher W. Miller of Sacramento, confirmed early today that his client was arrested on suspicion of murder. He said he would not comment further until a news conference today.

Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff was expected to announce details of the arrest today.

hopefully he goes away for a while.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Cogman

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: Cogman
This (former) cop needs to go to jail. Cops shouldn't have special rules that make it ok for them to kill someone on accident (IE they get discharged as a punishment). It is BS that we have some double standards for them just because they have a uniform and are in charge of enforcing the law.

IMO a cop should never be able to fire his gun without the fear that there might be criminal charges as a result. Just because the state gives you a firearm doesn't mean that they sanction every bullet you fire.

You do realize that all police officers have to already account for every bullet they fired in the field and they have to give valid reasons as to why they decided to discharge their weapon in front of a police commission after a shooting has occurred? Second having police officers second guess themselves all the time is not a policy I would like to see implemented period. A police officer second guessing each and every action would basically give criminals the upper hand and our society based on law and order would degenerate rather quickly in chaos.

Tell me then, what is happening to this cop who clearly should be charged with manslaughter? Is he being charged for anything? Yes, they have to account for the bullets they fire, but so what? The most that will happen to them in 99% of case is they loose their badge. Other then that, nothing, maybe a 3 week vacation.

No one in this thread has suggested that this police officer should not be charged with manslaughter. Right now there is an ongoing investigation about what exactly happened. I know it's easy to get into a knee-jerk emotional lynch mob mentality but the legal process must be allowed to proceed forward. We are after all a nation of laws first and foremost.

Somehow, I expect it to be a more serious issue when an individual is killed/endangered.

Well that is an assumption you are making based on your opinion.

The only thing the cop should be (and validly so) second guessing is the use of firearms. I am all for somebody by necessity having to take in consideration the consequences of using a firearm. Surprisingly, most situations that cops run into don't require the use of their firearm, so I doubt very highly that the world will descend into anarchy because cops become more cautious when using them.

Do you have any idea how many bullets are fired nation wide by cops? Believe it or not it is ridiculously low compared to the number of arrests made nation wide each year. You have more of threat of being killed by a fellow citizen then you do by a police officer. In fact the biggest killer of youth in the inner city by those wielding firearms are other youth.

There are even a few countries that don't allow their cops firearms, and they haven't descended into complete chaos. Surprising I know.

That is a very naive view. Those countries have very different cultures then ours and the prevalence of guns and violence amongst their citizens are no doubt lower then ours. Even in the US we have different levels of crime from city to city which means there is no one perfect solution. Do yourself a favor and take trip to Oakland and go live in some of the higher crime areas for about month and lets see if you come back with this view of yours. Oakland as whole ( It only has 400,000 residents ) based on the number of homicides is proportionally a more dangerous city to live then New York city which is way larger by a few million more people.

http://www.cityrating.com/city...?city=Oakland&state=CA

There is no investigation going on. The DA is just dragging his feet before he announces that the shootings was justified in two weeks. Why two weeks? you ask well that is when the biggest story of the year is planned and the DA will be able to announce the finding with no press coverage.

Really can you provide us with a link that backs up your assertion? I'd love to know where you got this top secret info from or is it that maybe you are just using hysterics to rally up more knee jerk responses?

Just wait. Or tell me what could possible take 2 weeks. At any rate it is corruption find me one other murder that is that clear cut and video typed from multiple angles where the person gets to sit at home for weeks on end while the DA claims they are "investigating".

guess you been pwned again. you should be used to it now.

 

[L00PY]

The SFGate has a nice summary of the criminal charges that could apply here:

First-degree murder: A premeditated, intentional killing without provocation. Sentence: 25 years to life in prison, with up to 25 additional years for use of a gun. If racially motivated, punishable by death or life in prison without parole.

Second-degree murder: An unplanned but intentional killing without provocation. Sentence: 15 years to life, with up to 25 additional years for use of a gun.

Voluntary manslaughter: A killing committed because of a sincere but unreasonable belief that the victim was about to inflict death or serious injury. Sentence: three to 11 years in prison, with up to 10 additional years for use of a gun.

Involuntary manslaughter: A killing committed by grossly negligent acts that show a disregard for human life. Sentence: two to four years in prison, with up to 10 additional years for use of a gun.


The victim was lying face down, both arms behind him, and with another officer's knee on his head and neck. I'd doubt any claims of provocation. If it is found to be intentional, it will be murder two, otherwise he's looking at involuntary manslaughter.

 

[theeedude]

I think Alito once ruled that it was acceptable for cops to shoot an unarmed suspect in the back, so if this guy appeals all the way to USSC, he's home free.

 

[Arkaign]

I would never expect justice to be applied in a situation involving a LEO. This will probably play out like this did :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_John_Webb

In that situation, an Air Force veteran was cooperating with the police after being the passenger in a brief pursuit, and as he began to stand up after being told to be the officer, he is shot three times at nearly point-blank range.

It seems that cops can shoot anyone they feel like, at any time they want, with zero repercussions. You could probably have a cop walk up to a toddler, pull the gun, and fire several shots point blank into the child, and have him get :

(1)- Paid vacation
(2)- Possible desk duty
(3)- Possible charges, but they would be acquitted with no issue
(4)- Profit

 

[AFMatt]

This video they showed on channel 2 news is from even a slightly different angle than the one on carlosmiller.com. In this one, they highlighted the area around his weapon. It looks like he tried to chamber a round with his finger on the trigger. The 2:26 point in the vid is where it happens.

Ch 2 news vid

Even if they say it was a negligent discharge, this guy will go down because there was absolutely no apparent reason to escalate to the use of deadly force. He had no reason to draw a firearm against a man who was putting up a small amount of a struggle, face down on the pavement, with 5 officers in the area.

 

[biggestmuff]

Originally posted by: AFMatt
This video they showed on channel 2 news is from even a slightly different angle than the one on carlosmiller.com. In this one, they highlighted the area around his weapon. It looks like he tried to chamber a round with his finger on the trigger. The 2:26 point in the vid is where it happens.

Ch 2 news vid

Even if they say it was a negligent discharge, this guy will go down because there was absolutely no apparent reason to escalate to the use of deadly force. He had no reason to draw a firearm against a man who was putting up a small amount of a struggle, face down on the pavement, with 5 officers in the area.

The new angle confirms what I thought Mehserle did; he immediately holsters his firearm and raises his hands to his head in an 'oh, shit' manner.

The questions still remain; why unholster your firearm, why chamber a round?

I still say it's involuntary manslaughter.

 

[bGIveNs33]

biiiiiig bump... verdict to be read in 1hr.

 

[waggy]

if its anything other then guilty i will me shocked.

IF nothing else the bastard deserved involuntary manslaughter.