Video concerning the ever increasing wealth disparty in the US

Oct 16, 1999
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This is a lecture by Robert Reich from 2005 on the increasing income & wealth gaps in the US and the world. It's a great video and hits on a lot of things that are current topics: unemployment, education, healthcare, even "socialist" trends.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCu-XnVxhfk

If you're interested in these types of things there's also this lecture by Elizabeth Warren on the difficulties of the middle class :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A

Edited to prompt discussion on the actual video instead of just the title.
 
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Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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How Unequal Can America Get ?
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Within a few reasonable limitations, we've got the freedom to be as unequal as we want.

Somebody wants to make a bad decision and bet money on some highly risky investment? Go for it.

Somebody would rather enjoy 'quality of life' stuff instead of spending all their waking hours trying to make even more money? Go for it.

There are some people who think nothing is more important than money and are good at making it. Others think spending time with your family or snow boarding (whatever) is more important. We can't expect to allow these 'freedoms of choice' and not expect differences in income/wealth.

Just stop the crooks and let everybody do their own thing. And remember that life isn't far and no amount of wishful thinking or government interference will change that.

Fern
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
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Just stop the crooks and let everybody do their own thing. And remember that life isn't far and no amount of wishful thinking or government interference will change that.

Fern


Best advice Ive heard in a long time.
 
Oct 16, 1999
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Fern, that video addresses the financial mobility and freedom that you assume are present. The second video hits on it as well. You might want to watch before making such assertions. It is a little more complex than just a personal choice to be rich or poor.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
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within a few reasonable limitations, we've got the freedom to be as unequal as we want.

Somebody wants to make a bad decision and bet money on some highly risky investment? Go for it.

Somebody would rather enjoy 'quality of life' stuff instead of spending all their waking hours trying to make even more money? Go for it.

There are some people who think nothing is more important than money and are good at making it. Others think spending time with your family or snow boarding (whatever) is more important. We can't expect to allow these 'freedoms of choice' and not expect differences in income/wealth.

Just stop the crooks and let everybody do their own thing. And remember that life isn't far and no amount of wishful thinking or government interference will change that.

Fern

/thread, /end of discussion for eternity
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,801
10
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Within a few reasonable limitations, we've got the freedom to be as unequal as we want.

Somebody wants to make a bad decision and bet money on some highly risky investment? Go for it.

Somebody would rather enjoy 'quality of life' stuff instead of spending all their waking hours trying to make even more money? Go for it.

There are some people who think nothing is more important than money and are good at making it. Others think spending time with your family or snow boarding (whatever) is more important. We can't expect to allow these 'freedoms of choice' and not expect differences in income/wealth.

Just stop the crooks and let everybody do their own thing. And remember that life isn't far and no amount of wishful thinking or government interference will change that.

Fern

/end
 

Apple Of Sodom

Golden Member
Oct 7, 2007
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I went to school to get my masters degree.

I landed a good paying day job with full benefits. In that day job I make about $75K per year.

I don't feel that is enough even though it is well above median. So I also have a side business. On the side business this year I've made (profit) of about $250K. It is because I'm very good at what I do and comes at a price: time. I work about 50-60 hours per week to have an income of $325K per year. I also immerse myself in what I do and spent 7 years in college. I also take a lot of responsibility and risk. Did I mention I sacrifice? For example, this year I will not be vacationing where I want to (out of the country) because of a project I'm working on. I'm trading my time for income.

I could quit my side job and be happy with $75K per year. But why?

My good friend does business with me and helps me. He makes about $100K a year between day job and side jobs. He doesn't work as much as me, nor does he have a college degree. He values his free time...and there is a $225K difference between our incomes. He didn't go to college for 7 years, and has about an additional 10 hours a week to spend doing non-work related stuff. Could he make more? Yes, definitely. Is it important to him? Nope, he is happy with $100K.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
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I'm sure bankers getting bonuses while 17.5% of Americans are unemployed or under-employed will help solve this problem.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
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Free market! The poor are lazy! Socialism!!1!

Who are you trying to bait exactly? Everyone is free to start a business or career, succeed, be a millionaire. Sure there are people whose starting point is worse, but it's just like some people are smarter or more beautiful than others. Most of the poor people are either lazy or ill advised. Worse still, most of them would go on hours to bitch at their situation, but its not bad enough for them to really sacrifice whats needed for success and change anything.

So what do you want really? To deprive people of ambitions? To turn the poor into entrepreneurs overnight? To redistribute wealth? What?
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
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I'm sure bankers getting bonuses while 17.5% of Americans are unemployed or under-employed will help solve this problem.

No one is trying to solve any problem. Bankers get what they are entitled to within their contracts, as it should be. The contracts didn't take into account the lynching atmosphere today, exactly as they should.

Do you think that a financial institution is going to lose money on its employees? And if not, where is the problem that the employees demand their cut? If Microsoft employees demanded 17.5% bonuses, would you still complain, or is it just a matter of mob mentality?

Ultimately, the government understood that in order to keep the people that make money for the banks, it has to pay. Like that guy who was supposed to take home $100M in bonuses - while generating his investment firm many times that amount. There's a reason they're paid. As long as it's legal and within regulatory rules, it's a fair game.
 
Oct 16, 1999
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The video is not about choosing to work harder to make more money. If that was actually the predominant mechanism for being rich or poor, or even top 1% rich vs. top 10% rich, then the disparities would not be as skewed as they are. All it takes is the first few graphs of the video to show there are other factors at work which the rest of the lecture talks about. I'm glad people in this country can increase and earn up to their wage potential, but that potential is capped by forces beyond personal choices.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
76
The video is not about choosing to work harder to make more money. If that was actually the predominant mechanism for being rich or poor, or even top 1% rich vs. top 10% rich, then the disparities would not be as skewed as they are. All it takes is the first few graphs of the video to show there are other factors at work which the rest of the lecture talks about. I'm glad people in this country can increase and earn up to their wage potential, but that potential is capped by forces beyond personal choices.

Yes, and heredity conditions also affect your earning potential. Buffet himself said many times he was lucky to be born in the USA - had he been born in Africa, he'd probably be running after Cheetas now. So whats the deal?

Ultimately most people within the US economy can get a decent living, even if they are in the bottom echelon. They can consume, reproduce and if they have good family and financial planning, live without too many worries. Sure there's the odd recession, but many rich people lost everything too.
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
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Who are you trying to bait exactly? Everyone is free to start a business or career, succeed, be a millionaire. Sure there are people whose starting point is worse, but it's just like some people are smarter or more beautiful than others. Most of the poor people are either lazy or ill advised. Worse still, most of them would go on hours to bitch at their situation, but its not bad enough for them to really sacrifice whats needed for success and change anything.

So what do you want really? To deprive people of ambitions? To turn the poor into entrepreneurs overnight? To redistribute wealth? What?

I want people like you to watch the videos, see that what you assert in your first paragraph is not the case, and then join in on the discussion on how to fix the problems beyond those few poor folks that are just choosing to be poor.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
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No one is trying to solve any problem.

Correct. And they are only making the problem worse.

And as for the rest of your post, the only thing I am implying is that these banks were bailed out, the fear-mongering was put into place quickly, and our money handed over to them just as quickly. But as for unemployment, well we should all just be patient. Very, very patient. The wealthy have bought government. And it isn't for sale, assuming we actually want it back some day.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Fern, that video addresses the financial mobility and freedom that you assume are present. The second video hits on it as well. You might want to watch before making such assertions. It is a little more complex than just a personal choice to be rich or poor.

Re: Financial mobility.

I watched all I could stand (I'm impatient, I prefer reading to listening, listening is too slow), I made it through the 3 graphs and bit more (about 20 minutes).

I stopped there because he was well into the whole 'lack of financial mobility' thingy, but he did so without ever reconciling how that data (3 charts) translated into 'mobility'.

That's a big problem (lack of explanation) because those charts don't address that, nor provide any evidence of any lack of mobility. What those charts do is demonstrate that if you're in a low wealth or income strata, you're wealth or income is going to grow more slowly, (as long as remain in that strata) than those in the highest strata. I.e., if you manage to be in the lower strata, but move to the highest THEN you will enjoy higher growth. (That's axiomatic/obvious.) But those charts demonstrate nothing about mobility.

Some examples:

1. Football/basketball/baseball players and celebs like Lindsey Lohan and Britany Spears or MMA fighters etc. before becoming famous and getting big fat contracts, they were in the bottom and, therefore, could only expect their income/wealth to grow slowly. Then they got rich, now they're in the top strata and can expect their income/wealth to grow more rapidly. So tell me how the data in those charts captures their big 'leap' from one strata to another? I bet the data's not there.

2. I've seen a bunch of people go from multi-millionaire to the bottom (e.g., many of Madoff's former clients who atre now bankrupt). OK, their earning/wealth growth will now be much slower because it falls within a lower strata, but how do those chart's data capture that (negative) mobility?

I think it quite obvious that the people with the wealth can aggregate faster (until they fall out of that category and aggregate slower). People with that much wealth simply can't consume it (as a percenatge). "Buying" a mansion doesn't mean that money/wealth is spent - it is just converted into another form of wealth. OTOH, buying clothes, food, taking vacations, getting big screen TV's and expensive cars etc is money gone forever. The top people have so much money it can't possibly be frittered away, instead it's invested.

I don't know where he was ultimately going with this, but if it's about taxes I have a few comments:

1. You raise the income rate and 'taxable income' will disappear from the wealthy; they have the ability to defer income by letting investment ride (not selling). Those less welathy do not have this ability; kids education, vacations, home purchases, and retirement needs mandate that they liquidate and that's when 'income' shows up on your tax return. I.e., you can more easily manipulate the data on the charts than you can change the reality (I bet they're using tax return data, there's no other way to get it.)

2. Estate tax. It's damn hard to get to the top, it's much easier to inherent a bunch of money from someone who did. The estate tax has been gutted and we're building an aristocratic class as a result.

But as a CPA, I have seen an awful lot of people go from one extreme to the other on the charts; both ways - up & down.

Cliffs: Those charts, which he advertises as speaking to income/wealth mobility to do not actually do so. They do NOT have that data and he is misinterpreting them.

Fern
 
Oct 16, 1999
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Reich explicitly addresses specific limits to financial mobility later in the lecture. He also does not conclude that increasing taxes on the wealthy is some silver bullet solution. In fact if he mentions it at all it's only in passing because I don't remember him even doing so. I can't believe you spent the time to write all that out but were too impatient to even finish the video you are arguing against.

And attacking his data? Really? This was from 2005, there have been scores of articles and data since then that only reinforce his numbers.
 
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spittledip

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2005
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Fern said:
Just stop the crooks and let everybody do their own thing. And remember that life isn't far and no amount of wishful thinking or government interference will change that.


Best advice Ive heard in a long time.

I agree that this is probably the better way to go; however, this does not mean I think that how things are in the States is how it should be. Some employers treat their employees fairly, alot do not. That is one of the major reasons why you have such a disparity of wealth distribution. Note that I said one of the reasons. The problem here is that what this comes down to is a moral issue. Is it right for employers to not pay their employees what they are worth? I would say no. Of course part of the problem is that idea of getting paid what you are worth or getting paid "a fair share" is nebulous. So, aside from minimum wage, it is up to the employer to define these. This does not mean that the employer will define these in a morally right way, but what can you do? Nothing really. We have to depend on the employers and those who control the money to divvy it up fairly. Our society is morally bankrupt though- that is why you see the disparity growing. There really is nothing that can be done. it is just an ugly fact that must be endured. I suppose if any of us are in the position to pay people, we can take that opportunity to do a morally good deed and pay them well. I wonder how many of us would if given the chance...