VHD. The best thing about Windows 7. Use it.

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

brocks

Member
Nov 3, 2009
86
0
66
What you would do if you lost the physical HD?

I think you are getting off track here. This is not a contest, and there is no reason that you can't use both Acronis (or whatever) and VHDs for different goals. I am not interested in VHDs for backup; hard drives are so cheap now that I have three bootable drives in my PC, and I just use the BIOS to pick which one to boot from, so I don't have to worry about multi-boot schemes. Almost all of my apps are portable, and are not on the system partition, so it only takes me a few minutes more to reinstall the system from scratch than it would to boot from a recovery disk and restore an image.

But this idea of being able to build a "perfect" system by having a master copy and adding new software to differential additions until you are happy with it, and then incorporating it into the master --- that sounds really cool. I know that Acronis can make differential backups, but AFAIK it won't let you merge them as quickly and easily as Catty describes.

The vast majority of readers here are just trying to find out new techniques to make their PC run better, for as little money as possible. If there are things built in to Windows that helps do that, we want to know about it. If it has limitations, that's important to know too, but don't get sidetracked into focusing on what it *can't* do; help us understand what it *can* do.

I found this discussion very interesting, but the fact that it will only work with Win7 Ultimate kills it for me. I am not going to pay $300 for an OS, when I can get Linux for free.
 
Last edited:

JackMDS

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 25, 1999
29,554
430
126
Let me explain my position.

Whenever I deal with a thread, my thinking is not just about the OP and the few people that participate in a thread but the many that view and do not participate (this thread was viewed almost 700 times)

Many times, I come across people having computer trouble because they read something erroneous and follow it.

Currently this is what we are talking about.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=vhd&aq=f&aqi=g10&oq=&fp=b36c7832dbb01be6
Because it's so damn great, I even find it strange why people are still using programs such as Ghost, TrueImage...etc.

VHD alone is such a great backup solution and it gets even better with Differencing VHD solution.

It does Not matter what type of manipulation One enjoys, it is their prerogative to-doo what they want to do.

My reaction has nothing to do with promoting TrueImage, Ghost, or the other applications that take functional image of a Bootable Physical Hard Drive. I just use TrueImage as an example.

Down the pike" it is simple, as much as VHD is great, but it is Not a substitute to a safe comprehensive backup of a Physical Work Station.

Search the forums you would find few threads that I actually told people to use VHD as a method to upgrade from XP to Win 7.

When upgrading from XP to Win 7 One cannot do in-place upgrade, so what it is amount to that you have to clean install Win 7, reinstall the applications, and then take whatever you can from a Mounted VHD file that was made from the XP installation.

However, you cannot call any manipulation that involves re-installation from scratch of the OS a real backup. No matter what some stuff is lost in the process. One can say I do not care that some stuff is lost in the process and it fine for him, giving the wrong impression to others it is Not.
 

13Gigatons

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
7,461
500
126
Several disadvantages of VHD are:

1. Most people have Home Edition.

2. Creating the VHD takes some time (10 minutes).

3. A lot steps involved. Create, initialize, format, install Windows, etc.

4. Needs AMD-V or Intel VT CPU for booting.
 

imagoon

Diamond Member
Feb 19, 2003
5,199
0
0
Let me explain my position.

Whenever I deal with a thread, my thinking is not just about the OP and the few people that participate in a thread but the many that view and do not participate (this thread was viewed almost 700 times)

Many times, I come across people having computer trouble because they read something erroneous and follow it.

Currently this is what we are talking about.



It does Not matter what type of manipulation One enjoys, it is their prerogative to-doo what they want to do.

My reaction has nothing to do with promoting TrueImage, Ghost, or the other applications that take functional image of a Bootable Physical Hard Drive. I just use TrueImage as an example.

Down the pike" it is simple, as much as VHD is great, but it is Not a substitute to a safe comprehensive backup of a Physical Work Station.

Search the forums you would find few threads that I actually told people to use VHD as a method to upgrade from XP to Win 7.

When upgrading from XP to Win 7 One cannot do in-place upgrade, so what it is amount to that you have to clean install Win 7, reinstall the applications, and then take whatever you can from a Mounted VHD file that was made from the XP installation.

However, you cannot call any manipulation that involves re-installation from scratch of the OS a real backup. No matter what some stuff is lost in the process. One can say I do not care that some stuff is lost in the process and it fine for him, giving the wrong impression to others it is Not.

Jack I want to direct you to this:

http://blogs.msdn.com/knom/archive/2009/04/07/windows-7-vhd-boot-setup-guideline.aspx

I read through this and I think that most people here are just not quite reading each others posts.

CattyKit is talking about a method boot the PC via a VHD (not virtual PC [key point]). The Windows 7 boot manager had the ability to mount a VHD file and jump to it and boot the OS inside it. There is no VPC at that point. This is one of the methods that is mentioned for Enterprise to boot Windows 7 on PC's. Basically IT can create a "mother" image that has the minimal boot drivers, that VHD can be deployed via windows PE or something else and then booted to. The trick was that every PC in the building would have a child VHD that is connected to this generic VHD. The boot loader can parse through the VHD's and boot the system in a pure "on hardware" environment. The idea is that patches can be rolled to the generic image and it will update all computers on the network.

CattyKit, where you attack Jack above is outright wrong. Jack is mentioning that a VHD converted to another format such as .wim might not be bootable without extra work. This is 100% true.

The VHD techniques being talked about here are often far above home users and really is a neat Enterprise technique.

Basically this something a Mac has done for a while now, except they have taken it to the next step such as providing installable apps via virtual disk images that can be mounted on the fly. There is no need to use virtual PC when they are mounted on the OS. Think "Daemon Tools" and virtual CD-ROMs where you "mount the iso." VHD can be used that way also.

Neat trick, I need to spend more time on it because I think this is the direction Enterprise will likely be going, using a base VHD (like they do with .wim already) and stacking a child on top. Would be nice actually:

Windows 7 Enterprise Generic.VHD
Dell Latitude E6500 driver set.VHD
Company X's generic applications.VHD

all stacked to a runable PC.
 

JackMDS

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 25, 1999
29,554
430
126
imagoon, Thanks for further clarify the issue.

I am aware of this arrangement that is basically a Make shift to work similar to the Standalone Hyper-V.

My point was around the bold part of the sentence in your post, The Windows 7 boot manager had the ability to mount a VHD file and jump to it and boot the OS inside it.

I tried.

1. to clarify the difference between a VHD file that consist of a running Virtual computer, as oppose to just a Mounted VHD file.

2. Make the point that a VPC computer is Not a full backup to a regular workstation, even if the VHD was generated from the workstation.

The link in my second post show away to deal with VHD in other Windows environment. It is Not as elegant as Win 7 but it is free and it works, http://www.tech-recipes.com/rx/3595/windows-xpvista-how-to-attach-a-vhd-file/

VHD file can be generated by this, http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/ee656415.aspx
.
 
Last edited:

Cattykit

Senior member
Nov 3, 2009
521
0
0
Imagoon, you're correct. JackMDS was saying if you change the convert VHD to other foramt, one can't boot from it. Thanks for correct that out though I do not understand why he brought up this 'if you change the format, you can't boot from it' notion. I mean, Windows's own System Image Backup makes use of VHD and following such notion, one should stay away from Windows' own backup system?D:
Anyway, it's my fault that I failed to catch the obvious.

On the issue of using "VHD is not a safe backup solution as there's nothing you can do if physical HDD dies":

Whether you're on VHD or other imaging solution, it's the same deal: There's nothing you can do about it. Now, if you want to be prepared for that case, the best thing you can is to save that backup file on other physical HDD like you mentioned. Same applies for VHD solution. Just save VHD file on another HDD just like you'd do with different types of image file. So obvious this is....

Virtual computers are very nice solution and I use them a lot. However they are Not a substitute to a regular Workstations.

While the server version of VPC (Hyper-V) can be a substitute to many types of real Servers, it is not the case of Workstation Virtual computer.

The Virtual computer is based on Specific Hardware Emulation that is rather old, and its Graphic card is S3, and it support very limited amount of hardware. The hardware emulation of the VPC is the same regardless of the Host hardware.

Games, and a lot of media function can not work on VPC,Network has bandwidth, and some other limitations.

If you are also using a regular workstation (Not a virtual PC) and you think that you are protected with the arrangement of the VPC, then I am afraid that it is Not so.

The capacity of Win 7 to Boot into the VPC is a nice gimmick, but it does not make the VPC a real physical workstation, it is still a VPC with all of the limitation of the VPC.

As far as the VPC per-se, there are variety of ways to back it up and use it, since it is just a File on a physical computer.

About this, please tell me now you understand booting from VHD is not the same as VPC. The whole confusion started because of your not getting this. Please free yourself from thinking VHD=VPC.

Also, your saying "However, you cannot call any manipulation that involves re-installation from scratch of the OS a real backup." is just wrong. You don't need to re-install from scratch! I've explained it already and if you really know what you're talking about, you'd know that's not true. Please, think of VHD as VHD itseslf; rather than it being tied to VPC. Again and again, think about this: Windows' own OS backup solution utilizes VHD. It makes a complete image file of OS in the form of VHD. You can boot from it as long as you insert booting information. If you can't, you let windows restoration service do the job.
 
Last edited:

Cattykit

Senior member
Nov 3, 2009
521
0
0
Several disadvantages of VHD are:

1. Most people have Home Edition.

2. Creating the VHD takes some time (10 minutes).

3. A lot steps involved. Create, initialize, format, install Windows, etc.

4. Needs AMD-V or Intel VT CPU for booting.

1. True, in that case, it just won't work.
2. It takes some time but after that, you save much more time.
3. True at first.
4. Wrong. You're making same mistake JackMDS is making. VHD is not VPC. You don't need AMD-V or Intel VT to use it. Do you need VT for running virtual DVD programs like Daemon tools? No and so is VHD.
 
Last edited:

brocks

Member
Nov 3, 2009
86
0
66
Let me explain my position.

Your points are very well taken. I forgot that the OP specifically referenced VHDs as rendering Ghost etc. useless. You are of course correct that VHDs will not replace backups for many users.
 

brocks

Member
Nov 3, 2009
86
0
66
Also, your saying "However, you cannot call any manipulation that involves re-installation from scratch of the OS a real backup." is just wrong. You don't need to re-install from scratch!


Jack was not addressing you when he said that, he was addressing me. I had said in a previous response that I would do a fresh install if my system drive crashed, because it only takes me a little longer than restoring an image would. Jack was absolutely correct when he said that what works for me would not work for most people.
 

13Gigatons

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
7,461
500
126
4. Wrong. You're making same mistake JackMDS is making. VHD is not VPC. You don't need AMD-V or Intel VT to use it. Do you need VT for running virtual DVD programs like Daemon tools? No and so is VHD.

That's good news. :awe:
 

JackMDS

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 25, 1999
29,554
430
126
When the Virtual computer was introduced years ago I went to w TechNet seminar.
There were few hundreds professional the seminar. To my surprise they knew nothing about Virtual computing, and TechNet presenter could not give coherent answers to most of the questions (he is a very nice smart guy but Virtual computing was new to the softies at the time). I ended up providing most of the answers from my 20th raw sit.

To my surprise nothing much change since then, while we are at the 3rd generation of Virtual Computers, it is still unknown territory even to most advanced users.

I have No use to be "Right" or to look for "Forum Fight". I put effort explaining some of the basics of the VPC/VHD, and who wants to learn enjoy.

That is it for me. :rolleyes:
 

Cattykit

Senior member
Nov 3, 2009
521
0
0
JackMDS, I understand where you stand and I don't think VHD will replace programs like Ghost for it's not easy to set it up. At first, I didn't even want to give it a try because it looked damn difficult but once I was done setting it up, it made night-and-day differences. All they need to is follow instructions and the benefit they could obtain, once done, outweights the pain of learning-curve.

Anyway, my concern is your spreading misinformation. This is much worse considering you're seen as an expert, not to mention your being "Super Moderator." People will mostly believe what you say even if plain wrong as in this case. This reminds me of frustration I always get when I visit numerous graphics forums. There're always these experts who insist Adobe CS4 uses CUDA tech. and that advanced drawing functions wouldn't work on ATI cards. I tell them that just isn't the case but guess who majority of people belive? The experts; the biggest problem is when I point out how they're wrong. It becomes a fight over experts' ego rather than simple facts.

Anyway, you never answerd my questions. Instead of answering it, you always bring up other issues. At first, you clearly stated 'boot from VHD is a nice gimmick; you run your computer as VPC and thus there comes hardware limitations.' When I pointed out how you were wrong, you don't say anything about it. Instead you bring up this 'I do it for average-Joes. I don't want them to mess up' notion.

I can't argue with that because it's your opinion. I, too, don't recommand it to so-called noobs. However, saying it's not safe because there's a high possibility that things can go wrong is different than saying 'This is VPC. It comes with all sorts of hardware limitations and your GPU will be emulated as aged S3 graphics card.' Tell them the truth and let them deal with it.
You see, I don't personally recommand lapping CPUs and if someone recommands it, I might say 'be careful with that. If done wrong, you can get even worse results. If done wrong, you might even kill the cpu.' This is an opnion. What if I say 'Don't do it because no matter how well you do it, your quadcore will become a dual core. I know much about about dualcore design. Dualcore is this. Dualcore is that. I knew more about dualcores than even Intel guys.'?

Same goes for 'what if your physical HDD dies' notion. I don't know why it was so hard for you to think it, but you can just save VHD on other physical HDD as you'd do with other forms of image files. I told you Windows 7's own OS backup solution uses VHD; would you not recommand it for it's based on VHD?? Is it not safe because if 'you convert the file format, you can't boot from it'? Is it not safe because 'if your physical hdd dies, it'd die with it'?

Again, again, and again. please stop talking about VPC. You don't need to explain how you have alll the knowledge on VPC, even more than TechNet presenter. I can tell you're an expert on VPC because everything here comes down to VPC and this is the problem: as VHD is widely used as a part of VPC solution, you think VHD is tied to VPC. The notion that VHD does work on its own just doesn't seem to make sense for you.

Stop for a moment and think about what you wrote above. I tell you VHD is not tied to VHD so many times. I ask if you get it. After all that, out of nowhere, you talk about 'There was a TechNet seminar. People knew nothing about VPC even the presenter. I was the only one who knew much about VPC. It's still the case.'
Okay, I get it. You=VPC expert. Make your own VPC thread if you want to talk about VPC. I tell you again. This is about VHD; not VPC.

Please stop spreading misinformation and take your time to re-educate yourself on using VHD without tying it to VPC. If your ego is not satisfied, keep it mind I'm a total noob, compared to you, when it comes to VPC and I respect you on VPC and many other matters. It's just that I was fortunate enough to learn about VHD as it is for I lacked knowledge on VPC.
 
Last edited: