Veterans groups blast proposed tea party cuts

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Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
8,487
532
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You do know that what you see on tv of a vet living in a trench for months is very rare now. Most have AC, computer access, game systems, etc... and that is for combat troops when back on camp/base. Most others are in "green" zones and have it even better.

I am sending people overseas right now in my job. I know where they are going and what they will be in for. The people i work with are the ones that take Military troops place when you see on TV polticians gleaming how we are pulling troops out of XYZ. Well when they pull out we pull in.

You watch way too much TV, and at your "job" you think you know what is going on. Sure, or large bases there are many perks. However, in my most recent deployment (got back Nov 22) from Afghanistan, I lived nothing like this. I lived in the middle of nowhere, and often times didnt even have a "home".

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Me doing laundry. The same place I bathed. Also the same place afghans bathes, took a crap, and walked their animals thru. Also water I drank on a few occasions because we ran out, and literally dying of thirst.

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My boot from patrolling so much. Walking thru canals, and then drying out. Everyone had boot issues, and it was very hard to get more. According to my gps, I patrolled over 640 miles.

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The demo we took on one op. And used every bit of it, plus five apobs. I shot four apobs in one day.

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A friend who had to have his knee drained about twice a week. He never missed a patrol, because there wasnt anyone to replace him. There are no off days, and no weekends. We got combat replacements for the Marines that were lost, or too hurt to continue.

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My fighting hole and bed for the night. We did an hour on, and an hour off of post all night long because of an immediate threat. I dug it out more later, this isnt the final result. Our sniper actually shot an rpg gunner at dusk. We got shot at several times by machin gun and rpg fire that day.

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This is about 0530. There wasnt any cots, the PB had only been set up for about a week, and we came to reinforce the Marines who were there. We were in an insurgent controlled area prior to us being there for a week. There wasnt anything to sleep on, so we slept on the moon dusk.

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Getting much needed water and MRE's. As I said, out in the middle of nowhere, so we had to get supplies this way. Despite what you said, "most" of our buys didnt have AC, internet, game systems, etc. Sure some at the bigger bases did, but we didnt. We had a sat phone that hardly every worked, and got to use the internet about once a month.

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We took this compound, and found all five IED's in there. Keep in mind that our metal detectors will not pick up the pressure plates, or the main charge. And the battery sourse was ran several meters away. Obviously it was very risky and hard to do. So we "raked" the entire compound to find the white wire you see with a self made tool. A stick with a sickle taped to it that the farmers use to cut crops. Im the dork with the new cammies. Mine ripped so badly I couldnt wear them. Someone had another.

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We found seven IED's on this hill. While being shot at all day. This was the main effort in a huge OP because it was the only hill around and we could gain a huge upper hand owning it. They knew it, so it was IED'd like crazy. You can see the sickle stick I described in it. The Marine on the far right died about a month later. His wife gave birth to their child a month after she buried him. Tell her she doesnt deserve the benefits her husband earned during the 13 years he served in the Marine Corps and the several deployments he went on.

I have a ton more pics, but I am done posting. I am not looking for a pat on the back, or a hand out. I volunteered to join the Marines, and do go on this deployment. I didnt have to, I was home only a few months from the last one, before we started the work up for this one. I am not trying to brag, so dont take it that way. What I am looking for is people who dont know what is going on, to stop posting sweeping generalizations.

Could we cut some things in the Defense budget? Sure. I never said there couldnt be. But dont sit there and claim you know what is going on. I have some Marines that still yell in their sleep, or cannot sleep because of the things they saw and did. Trying to cut the benefits they earned really pisses me off.

Someone mentioned helo mechanics not being vets. I will tell you that Cobra's saved out ass a few times. The insurgents have nothing for them, they rained down hell on them. They run every time they see them coming. And Blackhawk pilots coming in hot and hard picking up our wounded, or dead. They wouldnt be able to do this if helos couldnt fly. Sure I give mos's that arent in combat a hard time, but the truth is, we are all vets. Maybe not combat vets, but still vets. And the fact is, most benefits go unused. Because people are ignorant to them all, or dont want to go thru the hassle to get them. We have VA reps come to us all the time telling us about them, most of our guys dont even use them.

So you are of the opinion that despite doubling military expenditures in the past decade nothing should be cut? That is absurd.

I only mentioned that some perks are excessive in my first post.

I never said nothing should be cut. You were asked to give a list, and you gave one example. An example that is not 100% accurate. That is what is absurd.

However, I am done talking about this. Im just getting to annoyed, and it really doesnt do any good to post about it. But dont sit at home in your comfy chair and act like you know what is good for vets, when you dont have a clue.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
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Cutting veteran's benefits should be way down on the priority list where military affairs are concerned.

One of the main reasons why many of the benefits are offered is for recruiting purposes. Cut benefits and you threaten the All Volunteer Armed Services. Manpower shortfalls still exist, and anything you take away from the benefits package will definetly hurt recruiting and retention, no two ways about it.

If cuts in defense spending need to be made, then take it out of the slice that provides for all that corporate welfare that gets handed out by the untold $billions$ no questions asked first, instead of taking benefits that most veterans can't do without. There's much more fat that can be trimmed there than from our veterans. And yes, I am biased as I'm military retired myself, but the facts stand on their own.

Why does Bachmann not even mention making cuts from the white collared side of the Defense Dept. where the bulk of the largesse/wasted $$$ is found rather than from the people who are where the rubber hits the road?

We need to cut both sides. Veteran benefits and white collar government stuff. I'm sorry but the taxpayer doesn't have enough money to be paying for the hospital bills for veterans. Until we get the US National Debt under control, we need to slash to the bone and that includes Veteran benefits.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
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I think for the most part the defense spending cuts should stay away from pensions/benefits. It wouldn't be right to take some of the perks away from those who signed up being told they would receive them. However, some of those perks are excessive and should not be allowed to continue for new recruits.

Wrong. Pensions and benefits are what is killing the US. They are a drain from society. Look at the states. They all have severe pension and health benefit problems.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
You watch way too much TV, and at your "job" you think you know what is going on. Sure, or large bases there are many perks. However, in my most recent deployment (got back Nov 22) from Afghanistan, I lived nothing like this. I lived in the middle of nowhere, and often times didnt even have a "home".

.


I guess you glossed over the "living in a trench for months is very rare now".

There are about 1.5Million active and about another 1.5million in reserve. I stand my ratio that it is rare for a person in the military to be in the conditions you are describing. There is less than 7% of active troops in Afghanistan and not all in the conditions you were in.

And when the Military pulls out it is Diplomatic Security that usually fills in the gaps. Guess where I work.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
71
I never said nothing should be cut. You were asked to give a list, and you gave one example. An example that is not 100% accurate. That is what is absurd.

However, I am done talking about this. Im just getting to annoyed, and it really doesnt do any good to post about it. But dont sit at home in your comfy chair and act like you know what is good for vets, when you dont have a clue.

No one is making a personal attack out towards you. You said that anyone who wasn't military/former military has no business having an opinion on budgeting for the military. Maybe that isn't saying "nothing should be cut", but you are saying "shut your mouth" and not offering any other suggestions. Semantics. You repeat the notion that because I have never been in the military I should pipe down. If anything, you are too emotionally attached to the subject matter and should steer clear of any kind of solution. It clouds your better judgement.

I said the majority of cuts should not involve benefits to soldiers:

I think for the most part the defense spending cuts should stay away from pensions/benefits.

I gave more examples, but as I said, I am not detailed in the nuances of the benefits. I do know that cuts need to be made across the board (not just military), and everyone needs to sacrifice some. The military has doubled in cost in the past decade, that trend not only needs to be stopped it needs to be reversed. I also pointed out that I feel no benefits should be taken from those who entered into the military with them being offered. Any cuts to benefits should only affect those who are new enlistees.

We aren't talking about what is "good for vets" in this thread, we are talking about the country not being able to spend like it does and cuts needing to be made. Yes, it sucks over in the Middle East. I get that. We shouldn't even be over there, and as was mentioned already in this thread, if not for the very generous offerings to get people to enlist we probably wouldn't be over there. It is circular reasoning and has no place in a thread about government expenditures.
 

HendrixFan

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2001
4,646
0
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Wrong. Pensions and benefits are what is killing the US. They are a drain from society. Look at the states. They all have severe pension and health benefit problems.

Only because of the huge number enlisted, if we weren't so massive we wouldn't spend so much on military labor.

http://www.kowaldesign.com/budget/budget.html

Of around $900B for DoD, DHS, and VA around $350 is spent on personnel. $60B or so is for retirees, $70B for benefits, and $50B for medical. You are looking at maybe 15% of military spending for pensions and benefits, and I don't know that you could realistically (even if ruthlessly) cut even half of that. It is a drop in the bucket that you would save by going that route. We should start by looking at the $550B not spent on personnel and maybe reduce the number of enlistees to trim the personnel spending.

All IMO of course.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Only because of the huge number enlisted, if we weren't so massive we wouldn't spend so much on military labor.

http://www.kowaldesign.com/budget/budget.html

Of around $900B for DoD, DHS, and VA around $350 is spent on personnel. $60B or so is for retirees, $70B for benefits, and $50B for medical. You are looking at maybe 15% of military spending for pensions and benefits, and I don't know that you could realistically (even if ruthlessly) cut even half of that. It is a drop in the bucket that you would save by going that route. We should start by looking at the $550B not spent on personnel and maybe reduce the number of enlistees to trim the personnel spending.

All IMO of course.

You need to cut what you said AND cut the benefits. Leave no stone unturned. Every bit helps to reduce our massive debt.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
There are definitely huge cuts that can be made to the military without touching a penny for vets. I saw so much waste in Iraq it was disgusting. We paid Iraqis to build stuff, then a month later paid K&B ten times as much to come and rebuild it, some times a few times over. We REALLY need to remove bases in places they are not needed. I also see no reason to have separate forces nowadays, rolling the branches into a single United States Armed Force would undoubtedly save insane amounts of money by slashing bureaucracy, not too mention simplifying R&D, standardization, training, acquisitions, logistics, etc...
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
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the goal isn't to cut the deficit in one year. Given your figure of $200b from revenues, if we match that with cuts that goes a long way over time.

Oh, so only increasing our debt by $1T next year is a good thing?

That doesn't even bring us back down to Bush's insane deficits. Then you have the small issue of our interest rate starting to go up (unless you want to argue either a weaker economy or people willing to lend us money forever at a zero or even negative return) which could easily wipe out half or more of that $400T in savings.

So I ask again, what else?
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
I have a ton more pics, but I am done posting. I am not looking for a pat on the back, or a hand out. I volunteered to join the Marines, and do go on this deployment. I didnt have to, I was home only a few months from the last one, before we started the work up for this one. I am not trying to brag, so dont take it that way. What I am looking for is people who dont know what is going on, to stop posting sweeping generalizations.

Could we cut some things in the Defense budget? Sure. I never said there couldnt be. But dont sit there and claim you know what is going on. I have some Marines that still yell in their sleep, or cannot sleep because of the things they saw and did. Trying to cut the benefits they earned really pisses me off.

Someone mentioned helo mechanics not being vets. I will tell you that Cobra's saved out ass a few times. The insurgents have nothing for them, they rained down hell on them. They run every time they see them coming. And Blackhawk pilots coming in hot and hard picking up our wounded, or dead. They wouldnt be able to do this if helos couldnt fly. Sure I give mos's that arent in combat a hard time, but the truth is, we are all vets. Maybe not combat vets, but still vets. And the fact is, most benefits go unused. Because people are ignorant to them all, or dont want to go thru the hassle to get them. We have VA reps come to us all the time telling us about them, most of our guys dont even use them.



I never said nothing should be cut. You were asked to give a list, and you gave one example. An example that is not 100% accurate. That is what is absurd.

However, I am done talking about this. Im just getting to annoyed, and it really doesnt do any good to post about it. But dont sit at home in your comfy chair and act like you know what is good for vets, when you dont have a clue.

Thank you for your post and your service.

I personally don't know a damned thing about benefits that are offered to the .mil, I don't know what yall are paid or what you need or don't need. I do know two things though, the first is that unless we have foreign tanks coming down Canal St. I ain't up for all that stuff you guys do so I am absolutely in favor of giving yall all the support you need so that they don't need my ass to dig a friggen hole on some hill in bumfuck nowhere covered with improvised mines with people shooting friggen RPGs at my ass.

The other thing I know is the math. We have two parties with a bunch of assholes in both of them, one side only wants to cut spending and the other only (really) wants to raise taxes with both giving lipservice to compromise if the other side goes with their plan first. To me the math simply doesn't lie, we must do both and we are in such a hole that we must do both in a way that is a lot bigger than most want to believe.

To complicate matters we have structured our debt (roughly ALL of it) a lot like those people did when they bought houses they couldn't afford. Interest only adjustable rate mortgages when the interest rates were at or near record lows. When the interest rate adjusts, and if its already damn near 0 there is only one way for it to adjust, the increased interest costs will be realized almost immediately. We are talking $150B a year or so for every 1% which would pretty much wipe out the additional revenue from taxing the rich and "closing the loopholes".

I guess my point is that these discussions aren't necessarily a bad thing, as a matter of fact they are a good thing. We must figure out a way to cut our expenses and raise our revenue to get us out of this hole. Everyone will feel some pain in the process but the more insight we get the more we can hopefully reduce that pain. The pain only gets worse the longer we wait and it gets much worse if we wait until someone else decides for us.

"we must all hang together or surely we will all hang separately"
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
21,619
4,675
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When it comes to the Military Pay and Benefits, how do you put a Price on something when the person has put their very existence on the line? It's not even that though, they have also sacrificed various Freedoms in joining the Military. If they are ordered to Antarctica, that's where they go, leave their Family/Friends behind, be there as long as someone else decides, and it's not just them who are affected as their Spouse/Children also pay the price of it as well.

If an attempt was made to Pay in Wages alone, surely such sacrifice would be Worth $millions and not the pittance they receive. All the side Benefits may seem excessive, but even if someone took advantage of all of them, the Cost would still not equal the true Price their sacrifice was worth. IMO.

Thank you very much! Well said.

Ackmed

Thank you for your service. I only wish some in this thread could understand...
 
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charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
By all means lets reform VA benefits. I work with quite a few "disabled vets" and most were never anywhere near any sort of combat. They put their 20 years and suffer from things like bad back, sleep apnea, diabetes and other problems that you would find in many other 40 year old people. I have no problems with the govt paying for treatment of problems that were caused by military service, but they also get a fat check every month for this. This system was setup the help the disabled and it is being abused by an army of otherwise healthy individuals claiming to be disabled.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
0
Cut/enforce welfare and get the lazy moochers off the taxpayer's dime before touching our Veterans please.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,898
7,426
136
You watch way too much TV, and at your "job" you think you know what is going on. Sure, or large bases there are many perks. However, in my most recent deployment (got back Nov 22) from Afghanistan, I lived nothing like this. I lived in the middle of nowhere, and often times didnt even have a "home".


However, I am done talking about this. Im just getting to annoyed, and it really doesnt do any good to post about it. But dont sit at home in your comfy chair and act like you know what is good for vets, when you dont have a clue.

Thanks for the memories...good and bad. The good was really good, but the bad was really really bad. :thumbsup:
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
This thread demonstrates how penny wise and pound foolish Republicans are. Unbelievable that you people would even argue for cutting medical benefits for veterans... The one drop in the bucket that directly helps the one group of people who make a sacrifice for our wars.

For once forget about your ideology and think about right and wrong.
 
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charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
This thread demonstrates how penny wise and pound foolish Republicans are. Unbelievable that you people would even argue for cutting medical benefits for veterans... The one drop in the bucket that directly helps the one group of people who make a sacrifice for our wars.

For once forget about your ideology and think about right and wrong.

The only problem is, this program like many other govt programs, it is ripe with abuse.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Thank you very much! Well said.

Ackmed

Thank you for your service. I only wish some in this thread could understand...

They won't and never will. It has been that way since the country was formed after the American Revolution. Events such as Shay's Rebellion had their roots in the way veterans of the Continental Army were treated post service.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
They won't and never will. It has been that way since the country was formed after the American Revolution. Events such as Shay's Rebellion had their roots in the way veterans of the Continental Army were treated post service.

I understand, but what comes to mind when you hear about a vet that is 50% disabled? Reality is probably nothing like what you are thinking.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
I understand, but what comes to mind when you hear about a vet that is 50% disabled? Reality is probably nothing like what you are thinking.

That is why in a previous post I said that I am willing to wait and see what concrete proposals come out of congress rather than immediately demonizing anyone that proposes cuts to programs of wanting to throw grandma/vets/kids out on the streets. I personally believe everything should be on the table and examined for potential cuts.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
That is why in a previous post I said that I am willing to wait and see what concrete proposals come out of congress rather than immediately demonizing anyone that proposes cuts to programs of wanting to throw grandma/vets/kids out on the streets. I personally believe everything should be on the table and examined for potential cuts.


:thumbsup:


Problem is the 2 biggest are SS/Med and Military. So cut the Military and you get the NO!!! Think of the soldiers. Try and cut SS/Med NO!!! Think of Grandma.

I be willing to bet we could cut about half from military and barely touch soldiers pay/benefits. i.e. contractors, over priced/late/unused equipment, to many bases and playing world police, etc... make up a lot more than people think.

Same with SS/Med. Let them negotiate for better prices, go after drug makers that break the law, etc…
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
3
81
Budget cuts are going to hurt someone\some group. I hope the media reports what programs are being cut and how the cuts will the affect the country.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Wrong. Pensions and benefits are what is killing the US. They are a drain from society. Look at the states. They all have severe pension and health benefit problems.

Concentration of wealth and income are what's killing the US, along with the offshoring enabled by it.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
This thread demonstrates how penny wise and pound foolish Republicans are. Unbelievable that you people would even argue for cutting medical benefits for veterans... The one drop in the bucket that directly helps the one group of people who make a sacrifice for our wars.

For once forget about your ideology and think about right and wrong.

So, the Repubs are for cutting benefits, and the vets vote for the Repubs?
I dunno, America is so messed up.