Veterans cross to be taken down ?

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
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The ACLU has forced people to cover a cross that was placed in 1934 as a memorial to veterans that died during the war. It was private land when it was erected and now is federal land. The ACLU is saying it violates the separation of church and state . So now the cross is covered by a wooden box so people offended by it don't have to look at it. The supreme court is ruling on Oct 7th. If they win it could mean that any religious symbol has to be removed from any government owned property whether a cemetery or building.


To me this is absurd. I guess they have to go to Arlington now and take down any crosses. It was clearly erected as a memorial.


Guess they will have to start here:
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.o...ngs/PAGES/image28.html

http://www.citywatchla.com/content/view/2662/75/

Early next month the U.S. Supreme Court will hear oral arguments on the ?Mojave Cross? (Salazar v Buono) that has been standing in a remote area of the 1.6 million acre Mojave Desert Preserve since 1934. The cross was erected by a group of World War I veterans in memory of fallen soldiers of WWI. For 50 years, John Riley Bembry, a World War I medic, cared for the cross. When Bembry died in 1984, Henry Sandoz. and his wife, Wanda, resumed its care and have done so until today.

The Court battle over this cross has been going on since 1999 and has been the subject of several pieces of legislation. The cross stood unchallenged for the first 65 years of its existence.

In 2001, Frank Buono, a former National Park Service employee filed a suit claiming an ?Establishment Clause? violation. Technically speaking, at issue are two questions: 1. whether an individual has Article III standing to bring an Establishment Clause suit challenging the display of a religious symbol on government land and 2. if the Act of Congress directing the land be transferred to a private entity is a permissible accommodation.

In 2002, the District Court held that Buono ?has standing because he was ?subjected to an unwelcome religious display, namely the cross? and ordered the cross to be removed.

With the help of their Congressman in 2002, the Sandoz?s were able to trade five acres of their land within the Preserve for one acre where the cross stands. The land was transferred to VFW Post 385E pursuant to a Congressional designation.

?This has been going on for over ten years now,? Wanda Sandoz said, ?The cross was covered in 2002 or 2003. Originally it had a canvas bag over it but that was too easy to get off. We were accused of removing it, but we didn?t have to because others removed it.?

In September 2007, the Court of Appeals affirmed the District Courts judgment ... reasoning ?that Buono had suffered a ?concrete, personalized injury? rather than ?an abstract generalized grievance,? because he ?will tend to avoid Sunrise Rock on his visits to the Preserve as long as the cross remains standing.?

The Court of Appeals further invalidated the land transfer and ordered the Government to comply with the original injunction.

Later that year, the court refused to hear the case again.

Peter Eliasberg, Counsel of Record, ACLU of Southern California, represents the Sandoz couple, ?My client lives in Arizona. There is no argument that my client doesn?t have standing because he doesn?t live in the Preserve. He regularly visits the Preserve.

?He is offended by the fact that the government has engaged in this sectarian religious endorsement.

?He has a very large hand in the Preserve actually becoming a Preserve. He was a park ranger there so his connection to the area is as great or greater than anybody who lives there. And the fact the court has regularly said that people have standing to bring environmental challenges with respect to national parks or preserves whether they live there or not.?
Eliasberg continued, ?The cross is the preeminent symbol of Christianity and that symbol has no religious meaning to any other religion other than Christianity. To call it a war memorial does not change the fact that it is the symbol of Christianity and to tell the family members of the 250,000 Jews who fought for the United States in World War I that they are being honored by a symbol that says ?Christ is the Messiah? is really offensive to them.?

In a February Press Release, Chief Legal Counsel of Liberty Legal Institute, Kelly Shackleford?s amicus brief of November 2008 asked for certiorari on behalf of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States (VFW), The American Legion, the Military Order of the Purple Heart (MOPH), Veterans of Foreign Wars. Department of California, and American Ex-Prisoners of War (AXPOW).

?The VFW erected the memorial and originally owned the land on which the memorial sits, and had donated it to the government in 1934. The ACLU sued for removal of the veterans? memorial on the grounds that it is unconstitutional, and the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals agreed and ordered the memorial and cross dismantled.?

The cross still stands covered by a wooden box.

The United States Supreme Court has agreed to hear arguments on the case.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,597
9,866
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To not grandfather in pieces of history is an insult to our history. Such is an assault on our nation for which it stands. I am deeply offended that it cannot remain as it has been simply due to a court.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,805
54,881
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I think that suing over these memorials is mostly just a dickish kind of move, one not really worth the trouble or pain for anyone involved.

The thing is though, they are right. I guess this just shows you can be right, and still be a dick.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,517
586
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So every national cemetary will have to have any religious symbol removed. Oh and the Supreme Court will have to take down their ten commandments and the library of congress will have to remove the Guttenberg Bibles.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
To not grandfather in pieces of history is an insult to our history. Such is an assault on our nation for which it stands. I am deeply offended that it cannot remain as it has been simply due to a court.

This. If it was private land to begin with and it later became federal land after the construction of said monument, then I see no reason to tear it down. The court should rightfully smack down any federal dollars going towards the construction of such a new monument though.
 

FaaR

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,056
412
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I'm pretty much as against as you could possibly get when it comes to mixing in religion in politics, but if you can't accept that the cross has long since been incorporated in general western culture as a symbol for a memorial, grave or cemetary, then you're simply overly sensitive.

What's the point of quarreling over a cross raised nearly eighty years ago? That's longer than 90+ percent of every living human being. Just let it stand where it is, it's no harm to anyone, non-christians included...
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
I think that suing over these memorials is mostly just a dickish kind of move, one not really worth the trouble or pain for anyone involved.

The thing is though, they are right. I guess this just shows you can be right, and still be a dick.

How are they right? This is a historical artifact that was constructed decades ago on private land.

If this has to be removed, I say we either remove the Lincoln Memorial or scratch over the Gettysburg Address as it is Federal Property and Lincoln uses the word God in his address. I find that offensive.
 

BassBomb

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2005
8,390
1
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I am not christian (I am muslim) but that is fuckin ridiculous...

We get a day off for Christmas but you can't have a symbol representing faith to commemorate the fallen?

I am all for seperation of state + church, but it has not happened and is impossible, I think this goes beyond that and is wrong.

Are they going to go ransack graveyards now too?

edit:

lets sue for all money in the USA to be reprinted because it says "In God We Trust"
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Lots of crosses in the National Cemeteries. Gotta go, because these people fought and died to keep those crosses off their graves in a public place.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,805
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Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Lots of crosses in the National Cemeteries. Gotta go, because these people fought and died to keep those crosses off their graves in a public place.

Not true, the crosses in the national cemetaries are representative of the religion of the person buried there, not a statement as to the government's position on their religion. They aren't going anywhere.
 

Venix

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2002
1,084
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The Wikipedia article about the case tells a different story:

The current version of the cross was built by Henry Sandoz, a local resident, sometime in 1998. When the National Parks Service (NPS) investigated the history of the cross, Sandoz explained that he drilled holes into Sunrise Rock to bolt the cross in place, making it difficult to remove. Sandoz did not receive a permit from NPS to construct the cross. No sign indicates that the cross was or is intended to act as a memorial for war veterans.
 

spittledip

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2005
4,480
1
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Originally posted by: FaaR
I'm pretty much as against as you could possibly get when it comes to mixing in religion in politics, but if you can't accept that the cross has long since been incorporated in general western culture as a symbol for a memorial, grave or cemetary, then you're simply overly sensitive.

What's the point of quarreling over a cross raised nearly eighty years ago? That's longer than 90+ percent of every living human being. Just let it stand where it is, it's no harm to anyone, non-christians included...

Yeah, the cross is not just a Christian symbol anymore. It really has lost its meaning- it is kinda of a cliche.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
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Well, it's a good thing that we still have a reasonable court. If Obama has a chance to replace a normal person with another left winger, the balance will shift, but for now, we have a decent court to hear the case.

If the current court sides with the aclu, then there has to be a good reason to do so. I hope they don't.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
In kansas City they let the Klu Kux Klan put up a Cross on City Property. In that case it had nothing to do with religion. The cross is also a symbol of hate. I think if historical monuments have been up that long that we do not have a right to remove them. I say only let veterans of real wars have a vote on this issue.

I have mixed feelings about the cross as a symbol of a religious people. To me it just is a symbol of the suffering of Christ. Christ died to make us free, not to force people to suffer. I think the Cross is part of some kind of guilt complex.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
I think that suing over these memorials is mostly just a dickish kind of move, one not really worth the trouble or pain for anyone involved.

The thing is though, they are right. I guess this just shows you can be right, and still be a dick.

I disagree. Ignoring the law would set a precedent that can be abused.

If the Girl Scourt released a cookie called the 'iPod cookie' without permission from Apple, Apple would have to take legal action against them or risk losing the copyright.

So, they have to go after sweet little girls. That's how it works.

There's no room for 'well this just doesn't seem nice', if you are going to say that there are laws about the government not endorsing any religion.

Do this, and you get the whining from people who don't really care about that principle. Don't do it, and it can be pointed at for the next 1,000 violations.

How will the judge say no to the next one that is a little more intrusive, and then the next, and so on?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: eskimospy
I think that suing over these memorials is mostly just a dickish kind of move, one not really worth the trouble or pain for anyone involved.

The thing is though, they are right. I guess this just shows you can be right, and still be a dick.

I disagree. Ignoring the law would set a precedent that can be abused.

If the Girl Scourt released a cookie called the 'iPod cookie' without permission from Apple, Apple would have to take legal action against them or risk losing the copyright.

So, they have to go after sweet little girls. That's how it works.

There's no room for 'well this just doesn't seem nice', if you are going to say that there are laws about the government not endorsing any religion.

Do this, and you get the whining from people who don't really care about that principle. Don't do it, and it can be pointed at for the next 1,000 violations.

How will the judge say no to the next one that is a little more intrusive, and then the next, and so on?

An so those crosses on those graves must come down because you might be offended.

EDIT:

Let's see how deep the rabbit hole goes Craig.

These sit on public land

That's Arlington National Cemetery. It has other graves marked with different religious symbols. Since we have these on public land, should the ACLU try to have them removed and if not why considering they are religious in nature?
 

surfsatwerk

Lifer
Mar 6, 2008
10,110
5
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Originally posted by: Venix
The Wikipedia article about the case tells a different story:

The current version of the cross was built by Henry Sandoz, a local resident, sometime in 1998. When the National Parks Service (NPS) investigated the history of the cross, Sandoz explained that he drilled holes into Sunrise Rock to bolt the cross in place, making it difficult to remove. Sandoz did not receive a permit from NPS to construct the cross. No sign indicates that the cross was or is intended to act as a memorial for war veterans.

If this is true then what's the problem with the ACLU wanting it removed?
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
I am not sure how having a cross on a memorials established a state run religion.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
I think that suing over these memorials is mostly just a dickish kind of move, one not really worth the trouble or pain for anyone involved.

The thing is though, they are right. I guess this just shows you can be right, and still be a dick.

there is a single memorial cross at Arlington that is not a grave marker...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,805
54,881
136
Originally posted by: Patranus
I am not sure how having a cross on a memorials established a state run religion.

It doesn't establish a state run religion, of course the establishment clause limits government action in many other ways beyond that. (shouldn't you be happy about this? It limits the power and scope of government)
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
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Originally posted by: surfsatwerk

If this is true then what's the problem with the ACLU wanting it removed?

Read the whole story. He just posted a snip.
The cross has been there since 1934 in one form or another. It had to be replaced because it was originally made of wood .

Currently, there is a cross atop Sunrise Rock that is between five and eight feet tall and is constructed out of four inch diameter metal pipes painted white. Historic records reflect that a wooden cross was built on that location as early as 1934 by the Veterans of Foreign Wars as a memorial to veterans who died in World War I. Photographs depict the wooden cross and signs near it stating: ?The Cross, Erected in Memory of the Dead of All Wars,? and ?Erected 1934 by Members of Veterans of Foregin [sic] Wars, Death Valley post 2884.? The wooden signs are no longer present, and the original wooden cross, which is no longer standing, has been replaced by private parties several times since 1934. The cross has been an intermittent gathering place for Easter religious services since as early as 1935, and regularly since 1984. The current version of the cross was built by Henry Sandoz, a local resident, sometime in 1998. When the National Parks Service (NPS) investigated the history of the cross, Sandoz explained that he drilled holes into Sunrise Rock to bolt the cross in place, making it difficult to remove. Sandoz did not receive a permit from NPS to construct the cross. No sign indicates that the cross was or is intended to act as a memorial for war veterans.


This is a situation where the people involved have really tried to make the complainers happy. They didn't want the cross on federal land. So congress allowed that land to be traded out for another piece at no cost to taxpayers , so it would be private land. That was't enough because the ACLU says you can still see it. The only way the ACLU will be happy is if they take it down completely or build a wall around the mountain top.
In September 2003 Congress enacted another defense appropriations bill that included a land exchange agreement regarding the Sunrise Rock cross in which an acre of land containing the cross was conveyed to the Veterans Home of California? Barstow, Veterans of Foreign Wars Post #385E in consideration for a five acres of land.[6]. The government retained a reversionary interest in the property subject to a condition that the recipient maintain the conveyed property as a memorial commemorating United States participation in World War I and honoring the American veterans of that war.
 

surfsatwerk

Lifer
Mar 6, 2008
10,110
5
81
Yeah that doesn't make any sense at all. The ACLU is acting like that really smart guy I know who doesn't have the common sense god gave a doorknob.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,398
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so the .gov swapped 1 acre of land for 5? so now the land the cross is on is privately held? so why is there standing? there is no longer an actual controversy here.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
IF I remember correctly, I saw lots of crosses and stars of David in Arlington and in most grave yards owned by the Federal Government. There must be some exclusion in Law for that. I've not found it yet.
I wonder if the ACLU can argue that a citizen who'd be offended by a cross at a memorial site would not be by one above the grave of Audie Murphy.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
The ACLU, in this instance, reminds me of the cop chasing Jean ValJean and they should do what he did at the end of the story