Very interesting documentary on Noah last night (TLC)

[Arkitech]

My wife and I were watching a documentary on the learning channel about Noah and the flood and whether or not it really took place.

One of the first things they focused on was the taking of 2 animals of every species. I forget the exact number but currently there are more than 1 million different species of animals presently on the planet, so mathmatically if I remember correctly the show said that it would take more than 30 years to load that many animals on board the ark. So the narrator basically assumed that Noah may have been instructed to only find the animals in his immediate area or surrounding.

Then they went into a discussion about the ark itself, based on the dimensions in the bible it would have been impossible for a wood craft that size to keep its shape or form. Basically the wood would bend and warp because of the weight and allow water to seep in which would result in the ark sinking. Their theory is that perhaps the ark was made of several raft like structures that were lashed and secured together to make a larger vessel.

The last thing I remember seeing before falling asleep was the actual flood and whether or not it was enough water in the heavens, mountains and earth to cover the entire surface of the land. They considered theories of frozen meteorites made of ice, underground springs and a few other notions. I did'nt see what their final conclusion was but they covered a lot of interesting possibilities.


So whats your thoughts on the Noah account, could it really have occured?

For a long time when I was still studying the bible I always thought it was a bit harsh to actually wipe out every living person on the planet with the exception of Noah and his family. The bible says that only Noah and his family were righteous, but I always wonder about the kids to young to really be good or bad. Somehow killing off babies and infants does'nt seem like a very Godly thing to do. So I've come to the conclusion that:

A. God must be a very cruel person

B. The story never happened

C. Perhaps the account was recorded incorrectly


At this point I'm not really sure what to believe

 

[stephenw22]

The geographical area covered by the bible is only a small part of the earth's surface. Also, there's no realistic way that 2 of EVERY animal (plus extra ones for eating), plus food, could fit on the boat.

That said, I've heard that a lot of different cultures have some kind of myth or story about a great flood. Maybe there were lots of Noahs?

EDIT: spelling

 

[edro]

It's a fairy tale... just like 95% of the Old Testament.

 

[NuclearNed]

Thread ingredients:

a copious amount of "I don't understand it, so it must not be real."
an equally copious amount of "All you sinners are going to Hell."
a generous number of idiots
several dashes of inflammatory comments
a whole lot of misunderstandings

Stir inflammatory comments into the rest of the ingredients until blended nicely. Let simmer for several hours. Enjoy!

 

[MacBaine]

Originally posted by: edro13
It's a fairy tale... just like 100% of the Old Testament.

Fixed for accuracy

 

[Gurck]

B. The story never happened

 

[nakedfrog]

I recall seeing something recently about how there was evidence for that immediate region to have been completely flooded. So I think there may have been a big flood, but certainly not one that covered the entire planet. I think the earliest documentation of a flood type story like this is from the Babylonian tablets.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
I recall seeing something recently about how there was evidence for that immediate region to have been completely flooded. So I think there may have been a big flood, but certainly not one that covered the entire planet. I think the earliest documentation of a flood type story like this is from the Babylonian tablets.

Interesting. I wonder if at that time the entire planet was populated,

 

[MacBaine]

I would be more apt to believe that Noah got ass drunk and slipped in the shower.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
I recall seeing something recently about how there was evidence for that immediate region to have been completely flooded. So I think there may have been a big flood, but certainly not one that covered the entire planet. I think the earliest documentation of a flood type story like this is from the Babylonian tablets.

Interesting. I wonder if at that time the entire planet was populated,

I'd certainly say so. It was supposedly only a couple thousand years BCE, wasn't it?

 

[edro]

Originally posted by: MacBaine

Originally posted by: edro13
It's a fairy tale... just like 100% of the Old Testament.

Fixed for accuracy

I was being nice to the Bible people... 🙂

 

[bbqbread]

so there is no such thing as a jewish person?

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: stephenw22
The geographical area covered by the bible is only a small part of the earth's surface. Also, there's no realistic way that 2 of EVERY animal (plus extra ones for eating), plus food, could fit on the boat.

You have to remember how fast speciation occurs. Just because there is 1 million species now does not mean there were nearly as many back then. Since the great flood occured relatively early in the earth's history, the original animals were still fairly close to the garden of eden. Also some theories like he mentioned involve an ice meteorite shower; before that the earth was very dry and what water they did have came from springs and morning condensation - the "flooding" didn't have to be equal in the entire circumfrence of the earth, it could have followed the contours.

Arkitech - About killing children - I believe the consensus is that God was saving humanity from a much worse fate if they had continued in their ways. At that point the children were probably involved in a lot of weird molestation/beastiality practices and were very unhealthy. Since Noah was the only person left God found to be righteous, then he followed the rules and prevented himself from getting infected with all sorts of nasty stuff.

 

[NuclearNed]

Originally posted by: edro13

Originally posted by: MacBaine

Originally posted by: edro13
It's a fairy tale... just like 100% of the Old Testament.

Fixed for accuracy

I was being nice to the Bible people... 🙂

No offense, but both of you guys are showing your ignorance. There are huge chunks of the Old Testament that are known to be factual and can be confirmed by archaeological evidence. Generally speaking, the Old Testament tells the history of the Jewish people and details their battles, rulers, destruction, and eventual exile to Babylon and other nations. To say that this stuff is 95% or 100% "fairy tale" is equivalent to saying that the history of the Roman Empire was a fairy tale.

I'm guessing that you haven't read the Old Testament, but that you don't believe the "God" parts, and therefore dismiss the whole thing as a fantasy. That is a very uneducated thing to do.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: stephenw22
The geographical area covered by the bible is only a small part of the earth's surface. Also, there's no realistic way that 2 of EVERY animal (plus extra ones for eating), plus food, could fit on the boat.

You have to remember how fast speciation occurs. Just because there is 1 million species now does not mean there were nearly as many back then. Since the great flood occured relatively early in the earth's history, the original animals were still fairly close to the garden of eden. Also some theories like he mentioned involve an ice meteorite shower; before that the earth was very dry and what water they did have came from springs and morning condensation - the "flooding" didn't have to be equal in the entire circumfrence of the earth, it could have followed the contours.

What's the definition of speciation? I've never heard that term before. Some of what you say sounds like it could have happened but then there's the issue of the ark settling on the top of a mountain after the waters receded. Since water seeks it's own level in order for the ark to reach the height of a moutain the earth would have had to been deluged in water. Also there's still the issue of where did all the water dissipate to. Going even further if a planet full of water evaporated back to the heavens all at once would'nt it be difficult to breathe. The air would be so full of moisture they would likely breathe in lungfulls of water.

Arkitech - About killing children - I believe the consensus is that God was saving humanity from a much worse fate if they had continued in their ways. At that point the children were probably involved in a lot of weird molestation/beastiality practices and were very unhealthy. Since Noah was the only person left God found to be righteous, then he followed the rules and prevented himself from getting infected with all sorts of nasty stuff.

That's an interesting angle I never thought of before. But that kinda brings up a few more questions, if 99% of the earth's population was so wicked and screwed up that they had to be wiped from the planet what does that say about man? What does it say about God who created man in his image? Or are we to draw the conclusion that Satan is so powerful and seductive that he can sway almost the whole of mankind to his way of thinking? There's some really tough questions out there that need to be answered

 

[frodrick]

I saw a show on TLC or Discovery Channel back before they completely sucked which said that it was possible that the flooding was due to a collapse/land slide on the south west part of the black sea. That would have caused devastating flooding to the immediate area but wouldn't have affected much a few miles off the coast. I don't know how plausible or factual that is but it always sounded good enough for me. The flood story is present in so many cultures (not just the bible) that I find it hard to believe that A) it didn't happen to some extent and B) as few people lived as was described in the bible. Like a fair amount of the biblical stories, I feel that this one has a background in actual history, but was developed to teach a lesson.

 

[Gibson486]

Originally posted by: NuclearNed

Originally posted by: edro13

Originally posted by: MacBaine

Originally posted by: edro13
It's a fairy tale... just like 100% of the Old Testament.

Fixed for accuracy

I was being nice to the Bible people... 🙂

No offense, but both of you guys are showing your ignorance. There are huge chunks of the Old Testament that are known to be factual and can be confirmed by archaeological evidence. Generally speaking, the Old Testament tells the history of the Jewish people and details their battles, rulers, destruction, and eventual exile to Babylon and other nations. To say that this stuff is 95% or 100% "fairy tale" is equivalent to saying that the history of the Roman Empire was a fairy tale.

I'm guessing that you haven't read the Old Testament, but that you don't believe the "God" parts, and therefore dismiss the whole thing as a fantasy. That is a very uneducated thing to do.

very true....it has been proven that lots of the stuff in the old testament did happen.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: stephenw22
The geographical area covered by the bible is only a small part of the earth's surface. Also, there's no realistic way that 2 of EVERY animal (plus extra ones for eating), plus food, could fit on the boat.

You have to remember how fast speciation occurs. Just because there is 1 million species now does not mean there were nearly as many back then. Since the great flood occured relatively early in the earth's history, the original animals were still fairly close to the garden of eden. Also some theories like he mentioned involve an ice meteorite shower; before that the earth was very dry and what water they did have came from springs and morning condensation - the "flooding" didn't have to be equal in the entire circumfrence of the earth, it could have followed the contours.

What's the definition of speciation? I've never heard that term before. Some of what you say sounds like it could have happened but then there's the issue of the ark settling on the top of a mountain after the waters receded. Since water seeks it's own level in order for the ark to reach the height of a moutain the earth would have had to been deluged in water. Also there's still the issue of where did all the water dissipate to. Going even further if a planet full of water evaporated back to the heavens all at once would'nt it be difficult to breathe. The air would be so full of moisture they would likely breathe in lungfulls of water.

Arkitech - About killing children - I believe the consensus is that God was saving humanity from a much worse fate if they had continued in their ways. At that point the children were probably involved in a lot of weird molestation/beastiality practices and were very unhealthy. Since Noah was the only person left God found to be righteous, then he followed the rules and prevented himself from getting infected with all sorts of nasty stuff.

That's an interesting angle I never thought of before. But that kinda brings up a few more questions, if 99% of the earth's population was so wicked and screwed up that they had to be wiped from the planet what does that say about man? What does it say about God who created man in his image? Or are we to draw the conclusion that Satan is so powerful and seductive that he can sway almost the whole of mankind to his way of thinking? There's some really tough questions out there that need to be answered

To start off with here is an example. All of the different purebreed dogs you see today came from a single ancestor. The same with cats. Now look at humans. Whether you believe we came from Adam and Eve, or we came from a single chimp that learned to walk upright, look how diverse we became. What happens is you get a combination of natural selection (or intentional selection) and localization/isolation. But it all occurs without any changes in dna potential. What we classify as a species is based on visual observation of characteristics. If the offspring of Noah and his wife resulted in the diversity of the human race we see today, can't it be the same for the rest of the animals on the ark?

When man was created in God's image, it was before the fall. When we were seduced into eating the forbidden fruit, our own will and ability to discern right and wrong made us even greater beings - but at the cost of being responsible for our choices. Whenever God made a rule for us to follow it was for our own protection - it was up to us to follow that rule. Instead of magically making everyone 100% good, we have choice. If we screw it up enough he will step in and give us a new opportunity while still being responsible for our past choices.

 

[samgau]

Ice ages also causes the sea level to rise and fall.... and the last major Ice age ended only 11K to 12k years ago.... so the flooding of coastal plains could very well have occured at that time..... BTW Hindus also have the great flood legend in its scriptures....

So I would say that Noah's did occur but probably not as extreme as it is depicted in the Old Testament.... especially if the event itself predates its being written down by 9-10k years or more....

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Arkitech
Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: stephenw22
The geographical area covered by the bible is only a small part of the earth's surface. Also, there's no realistic way that 2 of EVERY animal (plus extra ones for eating), plus food, could fit on the boat.

You have to remember how fast speciation occurs. Just because there is 1 million species now does not mean there were nearly as many back then. Since the great flood occured relatively early in the earth's history, the original animals were still fairly close to the garden of eden. Also some theories like he mentioned involve an ice meteorite shower; before that the earth was very dry and what water they did have came from springs and morning condensation - the "flooding" didn't have to be equal in the entire circumfrence of the earth, it could have followed the contours.

What's the definition of speciation? I've never heard that term before. Some of what you say sounds like it could have happened but then there's the issue of the ark settling on the top of a mountain after the waters receded. Since water seeks it's own level in order for the ark to reach the height of a moutain the earth would have had to been deluged in water. Also there's still the issue of where did all the water dissipate to. Going even further if a planet full of water evaporated back to the heavens all at once would'nt it be difficult to breathe. The air would be so full of moisture they would likely breathe in lungfulls of water.

Arkitech - About killing children - I believe the consensus is that God was saving humanity from a much worse fate if they had continued in their ways. At that point the children were probably involved in a lot of weird molestation/beastiality practices and were very unhealthy. Since Noah was the only person left God found to be righteous, then he followed the rules and prevented himself from getting infected with all sorts of nasty stuff.

That's an interesting angle I never thought of before. But that kinda brings up a few more questions, if 99% of the earth's population was so wicked and screwed up that they had to be wiped from the planet what does that say about man? What does it say about God who created man in his image? Or are we to draw the conclusion that Satan is so powerful and seductive that he can sway almost the whole of mankind to his way of thinking? There's some really tough questions out there that need to be answered

To start off with here is an example. All of the different purebreed dogs you see today came from a single ancestor. The same with cats. Now look at humans. Whether you believe we came from Adam and Eve, or we came from a single chimp that learned to walk upright, look how diverse we became. What happens is you get a combination of natural selection (or intentional selection) and localization/isolation. But it all occurs without any changes in dna potential. What we classify as a species is based on visual observation of characteristics. If the offspring of Noah and his wife resulted in the diversity of the human race we see today, can't it be the same for the rest of the animals on the ark?

When man was created in God's image, it was before the fall. When we were seduced into eating the forbidden fruit, our own will and ability to discern right and wrong made us even greater beings - but at the cost of being responsible for our choices. Whenever God made a rule for us to follow it was for our own protection - it was up to us to follow that rule. Instead of magically making everyone 100% good, we have choice. If we screw it up enough he will step in and give us a new opportunity while still being responsible for our past choices.

Thats what I thought the term meant I've just heard it called different things before.

I understand where you're coming from in that we have free will and we're basically victims of our own choices. I'm really struggling in trying to come to terms with whether or not God was fair in allowing events to take their course or if he's just kind of indifferent. It's hard for me to really buy into the thinking that God is all loving when I see so much violence and bloodshed going on. We live in a very sick world. I feel as if I should be trying to live my life as a christian but with religion misguiding so many and some other issues I have about God and the bible I don't where I'll end up in the future. I guess I'll have to give it time.


What's your religious/spiritual background? You sound like a person who's studied up on the bible.

 

[artikk]

Originally posted by: stephenw22
The geographical area covered by the bible is only a small part of the earth's surface. Also, there's no realistic way that 2 of EVERY animal (plus extra ones for eating), plus food, could fit on the boat.

That said, I've heard that a lot of different cultures have some kind of myth or story about a great flood. Maybe there were lots of Noahs?

EDIT: spelling

Well the dinosaours didn't make it so not EVERY species was taken aboard the ark. God told Noah which species to take and which not to take I guess.

 

[Mucho]

The authors of the Bible pinched the story of the flood from Gilgamesh.

 

[artikk]

Originally posted by: Mucho
The authors of the Bible pinched the story of the flood from Gilgamesh.

maybe the flood story came from people-noah, family,etc. and god and then was written in the bible and gilgamesh tablet. 😉

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Arkitech
Thats what I thought the term meant I've just heard it called different things before.

I understand where you're coming from in that we have free will and we're basically victims of our own choices. I'm really struggling in trying to come to terms with whether or not God was fair in allowing events to take their course or if he's just kind of indifferent. It's hard for me to really buy into the thinking that God is all loving when I see so much violence and bloodshed going on. We live in a very sick world. I feel as if I should be trying to live my life as a christian but with religion misguiding so many and some other issues I have about God and the bible I don't where I'll end up in the future. I guess I'll have to give it time.

What's your religious/spiritual background? You sound like a person who's studied up on the bible.

Many moons ago I was part of a newsgroup that battled this out, and I did a lot of research on creationist theory. That was a long time ago though and I'm at a point where I don't try to debate something I can't prove. I'm a non-denominational christian, and I have come to dislike "religion" a lot. Spirituality != religious doctrine.

God has been very angry and violent in the bible at times. But don't most parents? God isn't all loving - Jesus is all loving. He was able to relate to us by walking in our shoes for awhile. That is why you see such a drastic shift in perspective from old testament to new testament. God went from being our propietor to our friend.

edit:
What I meant by "God isn't all loving", is not that he doesn't love us, is that he doesn't have the personal attachment to us that his Son did. I didn't mean it to sound like he hated us.

 

[Hammer]

i think there was a great flood at some point just because so many cultures have a flood myth of some kind. but no, i don't believe the noah story as fact.