Very good article on the Bush Tax Plan

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,653
100
106
This is an article from Blair Hull, a illinois democrat senatorial candidate:


THE BUSH DIVIDEND HOAX
By Blair Hull

President Bush's $674 billion tax cut will not provide much, if any, economic stimulus, but at least it's stirring the debate over the nation's economic policy. And there's plenty of criticism to go around: the Bush plan is skewed toward the wealthy, does little to boost the economy in the short-term and creates huge federal deficits that threaten long-term economic growth. Moreover, it perpetuates the special interest-driven policy of porous corporate taxation without effectively eliminating incentives for risky investment.

Also lost in the uproar over the Bush tax scheme is one of its most significant shortcomings: this plan isn't good for business or corporate governance, either.

That's because the centerpiece of the President's staggering tax cut-eliminating the tax on dividends-is inefficient at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst.

Bush's plan calls for ending the so-called "double taxation" that occurs when a company pays taxes on its profits and shareholders pay taxes on their stock dividends. But the President's proposal is half-baked: in addition to the fact that it only provides a break to those fortunate enough to own stock, most Americans are already shielded from dividend taxes because their stocks are held in tax-exempt 401(k)s and other pension plans. The overwhelming majority of those who would see the real benefits from the dividend tax cut are wealthier investors who can afford to pay the tax and are less likely to spend their new bounty on refrigerators and cars.

But just as the "stimulus" justification for the Bush proposal obscures the entire truth, so does the "double taxation" claim. For corporate profits to be taxed twice, they must be taxed once. Yet many corporate profits are taxed zero times.

The Center for Tax Justice estimates that less than half of all corporate profits were subject to the corporate income tax in 2002. Even though the United States has the 4th highest corporate tax rate of the 30 countries of the international Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the overall tax burden that U.S. corporations pay ranks 27th in the group.

This comes as a result of an elaborate system of corporate loopholes secured by special interests to systematically evade corporate income taxation. Such loopholes include the establishment of offshore shells to hide executive and corporate income, extraneous deductions on employee benefits, and a myriad of corporate subsidies that encourage policies as destructive as toxic waste dumping on federal lands.

Instead of rewarding corporate interests that skirt and exploit US tax laws, we should crack down on those corporate loopholes and use part of the money to encourage corporations to issue dividends instead of financing their operations with escalating levels of debt.

The current system rewards the corporate accumulation of debt while discouraging corporations from issuing dividends. Companies are allowed to deduct the interest they pay on debt from their corporate taxes, but dividends are not deductible.

In the 1990s, companies held on to their profits, increased leverage, and focused on aggressive, risky growth. The deeper they went into debt, the more interest they were able to write off. It is clearly in our interest to eliminate the perverse incentive that encouraged this "leave all bets on the table" approach. Highly leveraged companies do not promote long-term economic stability. We don't need any more Enrons.

In 2001, in what now seems like a different era, President Bush pushed through a massive tax cut-tilted mainly toward the rich-that he claimed would jump-start the economy. The government boasted a huge surplus, and few Americans were contemplating an expensive war in the Persian Gulf.

Today, the economy remains sluggish, state governments are drowning in record-level red ink, nearly 300,000 Illinois seniors lack prescription drug coverage, and we're facing historic federal deficits and a potential war with Iraq that could cost $200 billion or more. The Bush latest proposal would fix none of these problems.

If we want a short-term stimulus, there are far more efficient-and less expensive-ways to do it than what's offered by the President's plan. We can provide refundable tax credits to low-income workers and families. We can readjust the Bush tax cuts to target more lower- and middle-income earners. We can provide aid to states for investments in infrastructure that current deficits will force them to slash.

These should be our top priorities.

And if we want to act responsibly for the long-term, it would make sense to restructure dividend taxes as a broader package of corporate tax reforms. By cracking down on corporate tax loopholes-in conjunction with eliminating the incentive for risky, debt-financed corporate behavior-we can bridge the gap between "zero taxation" and "double taxation." And we could do so without the fiscally irresponsible record-setting deficits that the Bush proposal would create.

With so much at stake, we need long-term solutions instead of ill-conceived quick fixes motivated more by politics than rational economic principles.

Our highest elected leaders should make decisions based on two principles: that they represent the right priorities, and that they constitute sound long-term policy over political solutions. In offering this misguided plan under the guise of economic stimulus, the President's course fulfills neither.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
If we want a short-term stimulus, there are far more efficient-and less expensive-ways to do it than what's offered by the President's plan. We can provide refundable tax credits to low-income workers and families. We can readjust the Bush tax cuts to target more lower- and middle-income earners. We can provide aid to states for investments in infrastructure that current deficits will force them to slash.

Well then, have someone propose them in bill that brings meaningful tax relief. The Democrats' plan to proceed essentially how you say we should would be fine if it actually had some meat behind the cuts. Instead the Dems offer about $100B or so in tax relief compared to Bush's plan for six or seven times that amount. In short, if you want to dole tax relief out in a specific way, make sure your plan is at least meaningful enough to bother making the case that it's better than doing it the other way.
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,653
100
106
Originally posted by: manly
TIME.com: The really unfair tax

Yep, thats a good one too.

Originally posted by: glenn1
Instead the Dems offer about $100B or so in tax relief compared to Bush's plan for six or seven times that amount.
You're comparing apples with oranges, as its not the net amount of taxes that are saved but who saves them and what impact will it have on short-term economic stimulus which the majority of americans can benefit from. I think its reasonable to assume that the Bush plan is a sham and the figures are far disproportionate from the real impact that it will have on short-term stimulus.

In short, if you want to dole tax relief out in a specific way, make sure your plan is at least meaningful enough to bother making the case that it's better than doing it the other way.
Definitely. I don't know the specifics of what the democrats actuall put out there so I'm not going to defend it, but a bad bill shouldn't be passed from either party. However yesterday greenspan said the economy is recovering on its own, so it better be a dang good plan if it passes, and not focus on making the rich richer, like the bush plan or any other.

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: manly
TIME.com: The really unfair tax

Yep, thats a good one too.

Originally posted by: glenn1
Instead the Dems offer about $100B or so in tax relief compared to Bush's plan for six or seven times that amount.
You're comparing apples with oranges, as its not the net amount of taxes that are saved but who saves them and what impact will it have on short-term economic stimulus which the majority of americans can benefit from. I think its reasonable to assume that the Bush plan is a sham and the figures are far disproportionate from the real impact that it will have on short-term stimulus.

In short, if you want to dole tax relief out in a specific way, make sure your plan is at least meaningful enough to bother making the case that it's better than doing it the other way.
Definitely. I don't know the specifics of what the democrats actuall put out there so I'm not going to defend it, but a bad bill shouldn't be passed from either party. However yesterday greenspan said the economy is recovering on its own, so it better be a dang good plan if it passes, and not focus on making the rich richer, like the bush plan or any other.


So how can you get give everyone a meaningful tax cut without giving money back to the rich. And who do you classify as the rich?
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,653
100
106
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: manly TIME.com: The really unfair tax
Yep, thats a good one too.
Originally posted by: glenn1 Instead the Dems offer about $100B or so in tax relief compared to Bush's plan for six or seven times that amount.
You're comparing apples with oranges, as its not the net amount of taxes that are saved but who saves them and what impact will it have on short-term economic stimulus which the majority of americans can benefit from. I think its reasonable to assume that the Bush plan is a sham and the figures are far disproportionate from the real impact that it will have on short-term stimulus.
In short, if you want to dole tax relief out in a specific way, make sure your plan is at least meaningful enough to bother making the case that it's better than doing it the other way.
Definitely. I don't know the specifics of what the democrats actuall put out there so I'm not going to defend it, but a bad bill shouldn't be passed from either party. However yesterday greenspan said the economy is recovering on its own, so it better be a dang good plan if it passes, and not focus on making the rich richer, like the bush plan or any other.
So how can you get give everyone a meaningful tax cut without giving money back to the rich. And who do you classify as the rich?

Did you read the article?
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
13,201
3,986
136
Nothing unusual there. Indeed, Kasprzak and Williams are like the overwhelming majority of middle- and low-income families who would derive little or no benefit from the President's elimination of the dividend double tax. Of 109.9 million returns filed for 2000 by those with incomes of less than $75,000, only 20% reported dividend income.

So who would be the real beneficiaries of the President's tax-cutting initiative? They are people who include the charter members of the Bush "Pioneers," the corporate executives, lawyers, oilmen and others who each raised more than $100,000 for the President's election campaign. People like Maurice (Hank) Greenberg, chairman of American International Group (AIG), the global insurance carrier that has been the beneficiary of many special-interest laws over the years.

This one would go straight to his wallet. In 2002 Greenberg ranked 47th on the Forbes list of the 400 richest Americans, with an estimated worth of $3.3 billion. Much of his wealth was tied up in AIG stock. In 2001, the latest year for which complete data are available, Greenberg owned about 44 million shares of AIG. The company paid 16¢ a share in dividends, meaning Greenberg would have collected $7 million. The President's tax plan would give Greenberg an extra $2.7 million from his newly tax-free AIG dividends. That does not include the dividends he received from other stockholdings.

Other members of the Forbes 400 would also do quite nicely, based solely on their stockholdings in their companies. Philip Knight, Nike's billionaire founder and chief executive, who turned a sneaker into a household name, could save $14 million or more in taxes. Michael Eisner, ceo of the Walt Disney Co., could shave off $1 million. Still others belong to an elite tax-savings fraternity. Most notably: the five members of the Walton clan of Arkansas, the first family of Wal-Mart Stores, who could pocket $187 million.

Then there's the man credited with persuading President Bush to dump the dividend tax--Charles Schwab. Founder of the discount brokerage firm, Schwab took part in the President's Economic Forum in Waco, Texas, in August 2002. As the President listened to speakers lay out proposals for getting the economy moving, Schwab ticked off several ideas, including a recommendation "to reduce the double taxation of dividends."

The President seized on it. "I love your ideas about...double taxation of dividends," he said. "That makes a lot of sense." Five months later the proposal was incorporated into the Bush tax plan. As for Schwab, he could trim $4 million from his tax bill.

If a picture is beginning to emerge of the Bush plan as a windfall for the upper crust, it's the correct one. Fewer than 600,000 individuals and families with incomes of more than half a million dollars--less than one-half of 1% of all tax-return filers--collect 29% of the dividends that would become tax free.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: manly TIME.com: The really unfair tax
Yep, thats a good one too.
Originally posted by: glenn1 Instead the Dems offer about $100B or so in tax relief compared to Bush's plan for six or seven times that amount.
You're comparing apples with oranges, as its not the net amount of taxes that are saved but who saves them and what impact will it have on short-term economic stimulus which the majority of americans can benefit from. I think its reasonable to assume that the Bush plan is a sham and the figures are far disproportionate from the real impact that it will have on short-term stimulus.
In short, if you want to dole tax relief out in a specific way, make sure your plan is at least meaningful enough to bother making the case that it's better than doing it the other way.
Definitely. I don't know the specifics of what the democrats actuall put out there so I'm not going to defend it, but a bad bill shouldn't be passed from either party. However yesterday greenspan said the economy is recovering on its own, so it better be a dang good plan if it passes, and not focus on making the rich richer, like the bush plan or any other.
So how can you get give everyone a meaningful tax cut without giving money back to the rich. And who do you classify as the rich?

Did you read the article?

I was asking you who you thought the rich were.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Over 250K annual income and/or over 2M liquid assets. If your in that catagory I'd say your rich comparitivly. Everyone under should'nt be taxed at all.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Over 250K annual income and/or over 2M liquid assets. If your in that catagory I'd say your rich comparitivly. Everyone under should'nt be taxed at all.

What would the tax rate be for this group?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
25% to start with would be nice. My dad pays less as a percentage than we do cause his earnings are almost 100% capital gains (usually, has little income or AGI)...I know I know he paid the first time when he earned it the first time. But I don't agree with that type of system. It leads to massive disparity between the rich and poor with little middle class. Sorta like back in the late 1800's with robber barrens and sweat shops.

JMO

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
25% to start with would be nice. My dad pays less as a percentage than we do cause his earnings are almost 100% capital gains (usually, has little income or AGI)...I know I know he paid the first time when he earned it the first time. But I don't agree with that type of system. It leads to massive disparity between the rich and poor with little middle class. Sorta like back in the late 1800's with robber barrens and sweat shops.

JMO

25% would be a tax cut and not nearly enough revenue to run the goverment.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
25% to start with would be nice. My dad pays less as a percentage than we do cause his earnings are almost 100% capital gains (usually, has little income or AGI)...I know I know he paid the first time when he earned it the first time. But I don't agree with that type of system. It leads to massive disparity between the rich and poor with little middle class. Sorta like back in the late 1800's with robber barrens and sweat shops.

JMO

25% would be a tax cut and not nearly enough revenue to run the goverment.

Slice and dice baby:)

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
25% to start with would be nice. My dad pays less as a percentage than we do cause his earnings are almost 100% capital gains (usually, has little income or AGI)...I know I know he paid the first time when he earned it the first time. But I don't agree with that type of system. It leads to massive disparity between the rich and poor with little middle class. Sorta like back in the late 1800's with robber barrens and sweat shops.

JMO

25% would be a tax cut and not nearly enough revenue to run the goverment.

Slice and dice baby:)


I dont really have a problem with slicing and dicing.
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,653
100
106
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: manly TIME.com: The really unfair tax
Yep, thats a good one too.
Originally posted by: glenn1 Instead the Dems offer about $100B or so in tax relief compared to Bush's plan for six or seven times that amount.
You're comparing apples with oranges, as its not the net amount of taxes that are saved but who saves them and what impact will it have on short-term economic stimulus which the majority of americans can benefit from. I think its reasonable to assume that the Bush plan is a sham and the figures are far disproportionate from the real impact that it will have on short-term stimulus.
In short, if you want to dole tax relief out in a specific way, make sure your plan is at least meaningful enough to bother making the case that it's better than doing it the other way.
Definitely. I don't know the specifics of what the democrats actuall put out there so I'm not going to defend it, but a bad bill shouldn't be passed from either party. However yesterday greenspan said the economy is recovering on its own, so it better be a dang good plan if it passes, and not focus on making the rich richer, like the bush plan or any other.
So how can you get give everyone a meaningful tax cut without giving money back to the rich. And who do you classify as the rich?
Did you read the article?
I was asking you who you thought the rich were.
Manly's article:
Of 109.9 million returns filed for 2000 by those with incomes of less than $75,000, only 20% reported dividend income.
Why pad the net worth of the richest people in our country who hold the largest dividend-earning portfolios? Those people aren't going to spend more. Those are the rich and its a sliding scale downward. Most people make far less than 75k, and the ones that do will receive only a fraction of the economic benefit that the wealthier people do.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: manly TIME.com: The really unfair tax
Yep, thats a good one too.
Originally posted by: glenn1 Instead the Dems offer about $100B or so in tax relief compared to Bush's plan for six or seven times that amount.
You're comparing apples with oranges, as its not the net amount of taxes that are saved but who saves them and what impact will it have on short-term economic stimulus which the majority of americans can benefit from. I think its reasonable to assume that the Bush plan is a sham and the figures are far disproportionate from the real impact that it will have on short-term stimulus.
In short, if you want to dole tax relief out in a specific way, make sure your plan is at least meaningful enough to bother making the case that it's better than doing it the other way.
Definitely. I don't know the specifics of what the democrats actuall put out there so I'm not going to defend it, but a bad bill shouldn't be passed from either party. However yesterday greenspan said the economy is recovering on its own, so it better be a dang good plan if it passes, and not focus on making the rich richer, like the bush plan or any other.
So how can you get give everyone a meaningful tax cut without giving money back to the rich. And who do you classify as the rich?
Did you read the article?
I was asking you who you thought the rich were.
Manly's article:
Of 109.9 million returns filed for 2000 by those with incomes of less than $75,000, only 20% reported dividend income.
Why pad the net worth of the richest people in our country who hold the largest dividend-earning portfolios? Those people aren't going to spend more. Those are the rich and its a sliding scale downward. Most people make far less than 75k, and the ones that do will receive only a fraction of the economic benefit that the wealthier people do.

What happens when money is not spent?
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
The double taxation on SS taxes is totally unfair.
Why is it that if I put money into my 401K, it's not taxed, but if I give it to the government to save for my Social security, I have to pay taxes on it?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: SuperTool
The double taxation on SS taxes is totally unfair.
Why is it that if I put money into my 401K, it's not taxed, but if I give it to the government to save for my Social security, I have to pay taxes on it?

because you will be taxed on your 401k when you withdraw it.
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,653
100
106
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: charrison What happens when money is not spent?
Which money, by who?
What happens when rich people do not spend a tax cut?
It distorts the actual benefit of an "X billion dollar tax cut", which is supposed to be directed at infusing money into the economy, aiding economic growth by putting more dispensible income in the pockets of americans that will likely increase their spending as a result...thus increasing business revenues with the hope that it will be able to create/retain more jobs...and/or the tax cuts will be directed towards businesses hopefully aiding them in the same way.

.....but instead it will reduce the tax revenue base of the government, increasing the likelyhood of running the government at a deficit, or in this case, extending the current deficit. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: charrison What happens when money is not spent?
Which money, by who?
What happens when rich people do not spend a tax cut?
It distorts the actual benefit of an "X billion dollar tax cut", which is <STRONG>supposed to be</STRONG> directed at infusing money into the economy, aiding economic growth by putting more dispensible income in the pockets of americans that will likely increase their spending as a result...thus increasing business revenues with the hope that it will be able to create/retain more jobs...and/or the tax cuts will be directed towards businesses hopefully aiding them in the same way.

.....<STRONG>but instead</STRONG> it will reduce the tax revenue base of the government, increasing the likelyhood of running the government at a deficit, or in this case, extending the current deficit. Correct me if I'm wrong.


You still did not answer the question. Maybe I can help you. If a rich person gets a tax cut, they will do 1 of 3 things

1. Spend it.
2. save/invest it.
3. stuff it under the matress.

What are the effects of the above


1. It goes right into the economy.

2. It goes to a bank, stock, small business, starts up. The end result of is the tax cut still get spent, quite probably indirectly, but it still gets spent.

Banks loan money for people to buy things. The more money banks have, the more they can loan.
Stocks provide capital for companies to invest in themselves and grow(more employees and equipment)
You get the point.

3. Unlikely to happen, because the money will just sit there.
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,653
100
106
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: charrison What happens when money is not spent?
Which money, by who?
What happens when rich people do not spend a tax cut?
It distorts the actual benefit of an "X billion dollar tax cut", which is supposed to be directed at infusing money into the economy, aiding economic growth by putting more dispensible income in the pockets of americans that will likely increase their spending as a result...thus increasing business revenues with the hope that it will be able to create/retain more jobs...and/or the tax cuts will be directed towards businesses hopefully aiding them in the same way. .....but instead it will reduce the tax revenue base of the government, increasing the likelyhood of running the government at a deficit, or in this case, extending the current deficit. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You still did not answer the question. Maybe I can help you. If a rich person gets a tax cut, they will do 1 of 3 things 1. Spend it. 2. save/invest it. 3. stuff it under the matress. What are the effects of the above 1. It goes right into the economy. 2. It goes to a bank, stock, small business, starts up. The end result of is the tax cut still get spent, quite probably indirectly, but it still gets spent. Banks loan money for people to buy things. The more money banks have, the more they can loan. Stocks provide capital for companies to invest in themselves and grow(more employees and equipment) You get the point. 3. Unlikely to happen, because the money will just sit there.
Not looking for your help smartass. What you're mentioning is exactly what isn't needed...leverage the economy on more debt. How is increasing savings for the wealthy in a way that allows banks to loan more money to other people who are having a problem managing their finances going to help the economy? They increase their current absurdly high debt levels and then they default on more loans and then the banks write off more debt. You've got pay the piper sooner or later and doing it by leveraging business in more debt or by the ordinary 'hard working american' assuming more debt is a long way from the answer.

There are valid suggestions/directions to take touched on in the article which is why I asked if you read it.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: jjsole
Originally posted by: charrison What happens when money is not spent?
Which money, by who?
What happens when rich people do not spend a tax cut?
It distorts the actual benefit of an "X billion dollar tax cut", which is <STRONG>supposed to be</STRONG> directed at infusing money into the economy, aiding economic growth by putting more dispensible income in the pockets of americans that will likely increase their spending as a result...thus increasing business revenues with the hope that it will be able to create/retain more jobs...and/or the tax cuts will be directed towards businesses hopefully aiding them in the same way. .....<STRONG>but instead</STRONG> it will reduce the tax revenue base of the government, increasing the likelyhood of running the government at a deficit, or in this case, extending the current deficit. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You still did not answer the question. Maybe I can help you. If a rich person gets a tax cut, they will do 1 of 3 things 1. Spend it. 2. save/invest it. 3. stuff it under the matress. What are the effects of the above 1. It goes right into the economy. 2. It goes to a bank, stock, small business, starts up. The end result of is the tax cut still get spent, quite probably indirectly, but it still gets spent. Banks loan money for people to buy things. The more money banks have, the more they can loan. Stocks provide capital for companies to invest in themselves and grow(more employees and equipment) You get the point. 3. Unlikely to happen, because the money will just sit there.
Not looking for your help smartass. What you're mentioning is exactly what isn't needed...leverage the economy on more debt. How is increasing savings for the wealthy in a way that allows banks to loan more money to other people who are having a problem managing their finances going to help the economy? They increase their current absurdly high debt levels and then they default on more loans and then the banks write off more debt. You've got pay the piper sooner or later and doing it by leveraging business in more debt or by the ordinary 'hard working american' assuming more debt is a long way from the answer.

There are valid suggestions/directions to take touched on in the article which is why I asked if you read it.

But you would rather give $300 to some poor guy to spend when in fact he should be the one saving it? This $300 will provide a short term boost, but it has not lasting effect. Once the $300 is spent, is it gone.

Loans and working capital are a good thing. Business investments are a good thing(stocks,refinance of debt,direct investment). This has a much longer term effect on jobs and growth. I worked for a small startup that recieved a direct investment from a group of "rich" people. This provided money to hire people and buy equipment. I have seen first hand how the "rich" invest their money and how this creates jobs and spending.
To say giving the rich a tax cut has no effect on the economy is just stupid.