Vermont looks at lowering drinking age

[IceBergSLiM]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Lower the drinking age and watch the drunk driving deaths go up. Hell people in their 20's are irresponsible enough when it comes to drinking.

As for old enough to fight for your country argument, I believe that those who are under 21 but are enlisted should be albel to purchase booze, they would just have to produce a valid pictured Military ID.

Your prediction assumes that the 21 laws have ANY effect on teen drinking.

It does not. So if just as many teens are drinking with or without the 21 law, how would DUI rates among their ages be affected at all? They would not. Whether it's driving to an illegal house party or to a bar, they are still driving.

At least with bringing it out from underground teen-only parties you'll have teens exposed to more mature drinkers and will learn moderation and responsibility much sooner.

Can you provide links to actual statistics that prove your points?

Not a statistic but look at Europe, Canada and just about every other civilized nation.

You're going to have a much higher level of drunk driving due to the higher car/per person ratio in the US.

What you don't get is they are drinking anyways. It making it legal to drink does not make it legal to drink and drive.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Originally posted by: Injury
I hate threads related to alcohol age because someone ALWAYS brings up the "If you can fight and die for your country you should be able to drink" BS.

It's always such bull crap. First off, joining the military is VOLUNTARY. There is no draft. Short of a mass-scale world war, there will likely not be another draft. So you wanna be able to drink because you could die for your country? FINE. JOIN THE MILITARY THEN TALK. Put up or shut up, I think. Second, take anyone in the military in a military town and go to a bar with your military ID. See if you get refused service. Some will, most won't. FFS, it's easy enough for underage drinkers to get alcohol as it is without any mention of military. Have you never been on a college campus? Never had a friend work at the local gas station? Never had a drive-thru where that one guy just wants your money and really doesn't give a crap if you're 21... 18... 12 so long as you have the green.

The bottom line is that argument is one-sided because it doesn't work both ways. Nobody would say "You're old enough to drink a beer so you're old enough to die for your country" if the ages were reversed.

The point is you are either a full adult or you are not. This one foot in the door one foot out is what is stupid.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Lower the drinking age and watch the drunk driving deaths go up. Hell people in their 20's are irresponsible enough when it comes to drinking.

As for old enough to fight for your country argument, I believe that those who are under 21 but are enlisted should be albel to purchase booze, they would just have to produce a valid pictured Military ID.

Your prediction assumes that the 21 laws have ANY effect on teen drinking.

It does not. So if just as many teens are drinking with or without the 21 law, how would DUI rates among their ages be affected at all? They would not. Whether it's driving to an illegal house party or to a bar, they are still driving.

At least with bringing it out from underground teen-only parties you'll have teens exposed to more mature drinkers and will learn moderation and responsibility much sooner.

Can you provide links to actual statistics that prove your points?

Not a statistic but look at Europe, Canada and just about every other civilized nation.

You're going to have a much higher level of drunk driving due to the higher car/per person ratio in the US.

What you don't get is they are drinking anyways. It making it legal to drink does not make it legal to drink and drive.

And making alcohol more accessible will only increase the number of those drinking which will lead to more drinking and driving.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Lower the drinking age and watch the drunk driving deaths go up. Hell people in their 20's are irresponsible enough when it comes to drinking.

As for old enough to fight for your country argument, I believe that those who are under 21 but are enlisted should be albel to purchase booze, they would just have to produce a valid pictured Military ID.

Your prediction assumes that the 21 laws have ANY effect on teen drinking.

It does not. So if just as many teens are drinking with or without the 21 law, how would DUI rates among their ages be affected at all? They would not. Whether it's driving to an illegal house party or to a bar, they are still driving.

At least with bringing it out from underground teen-only parties you'll have teens exposed to more mature drinkers and will learn moderation and responsibility much sooner.

Can you provide links to actual statistics that prove your points?

The 21 laws passed in the mid 80s.

Teen drinking PEAKED in the 1999.

http://pn.psychiatryonline.org.../content/full/41/2/9-a

Why would I post something I wasn't sure of?

21 laws had NO effect whatsoever on teen drinking. In fact, teen drinking rates INCREASED dramatically after the 21 laws passed to peak in 1999.

So, if just as many if not more teens are drinking with the 21 laws in place, then DUI rates are irrelevant. Because they are still drivers.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Lower the drinking age and watch the drunk driving deaths go up. Hell people in their 20's are irresponsible enough when it comes to drinking.

As for old enough to fight for your country argument, I believe that those who are under 21 but are enlisted should be albel to purchase booze, they would just have to produce a valid pictured Military ID.

Your prediction assumes that the 21 laws have ANY effect on teen drinking.

It does not. So if just as many teens are drinking with or without the 21 law, how would DUI rates among their ages be affected at all? They would not. Whether it's driving to an illegal house party or to a bar, they are still driving.

At least with bringing it out from underground teen-only parties you'll have teens exposed to more mature drinkers and will learn moderation and responsibility much sooner.

Well, it does make it harder for teens to get alcohol. And it won't stop underground teen parties, you think lowering the drinking age will make teens want to drink with their parents? You think guys in their 20s want to drink with teenagers? Well, besides the attractive female ones anyway? Which brings up another interesting avenue of discussion...

I remain skeptical.

There is a reason underground teen house parties exist: Because alcohol is illegal to them.

Nothing legal is driven underground.

And yes, 18-21 year olds would end up at the same bars the 21-28 age group frequent.

Lowering the age limit would lower the harmful and immature binge drinking so many teens do. They will be exposed to more mature drinkers in the bars and learn moderation and responsibility. A passed out drinker at a teen house party is funny and normal. It's sad and pathetic in a bar. Even a bar filled with early 20s college students.

And the US is one of the few developed nations with a late teen binge drinking problem. The reason it doesn't exist in most other developed nations is the drinking age is much lower or non-existent.

When you drive anything underground, be it drinking or drug use, you make it WORSE.

Finally, only a fool believes the 21 laws have ANY effect of teen drinking. Just go to any college.

"The facts speak for themselves," he said. "Once the drinking age was raised, the number of alcohol-related fatalities decreased. To me, saving lives is the grandest argument of them all."

Is this true or not? Kind of hard to argue with facts...

 

[Aharami]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Lower the drinking age and watch the drunk driving deaths go up. Hell people in their 20's are irresponsible enough when it comes to drinking.

As for old enough to fight for your country argument, I believe that those who are under 21 but are enlisted should be albel to purchase booze, they would just have to produce a valid pictured Military ID.

Your prediction assumes that the 21 laws have ANY effect on teen drinking.

It does not. So if just as many teens are drinking with or without the 21 law, how would DUI rates among their ages be affected at all? They would not. Whether it's driving to an illegal house party or to a bar, they are still driving.

At least with bringing it out from underground teen-only parties you'll have teens exposed to more mature drinkers and will learn moderation and responsibility much sooner.

how do you know parties will consist of mixed ages if the drinking age is lowered? teens will party with other teens, twenty-somethings will party with other twenty-somethings and so on...

edit. nevermind. this was already brought up by JulesMaximus

 

[markgm]

After reading all of these posts, I need a drink.

 

[waffleironhead]

Here is how I see it nowadays. Most of the underaged drinkers who overdrink are LESS likely to contact thier parents or someone of authority when they over imbibe because they are breaking the law. So they are more likely to drive drunk or get in a car with drunk drivers. If they were legally allowed to drink and then were too intoxicated to make it home, my guess is that they would be MORE likely to call for a ride because they were doing nothing illegal.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: Injury
I hate threads related to alcohol age because someone ALWAYS brings up the "If you can fight and die for your country you should be able to drink" BS.

It's always such bull crap. First off, joining the military is VOLUNTARY. There is no draft. Short of a mass-scale world war, there will likely not be another draft. So you wanna be able to drink because you could die for your country? FINE. JOIN THE MILITARY THEN TALK. Put up or shut up, I think. Second, take anyone in the military in a military town and go to a bar with your military ID. See if you get refused service. Some will, most won't. FFS, it's easy enough for underage drinkers to get alcohol as it is without any mention of military. Have you never been on a college campus? Never had a friend work at the local gas station? Never had a drive-thru where that one guy just wants your money and really doesn't give a crap if you're 21... 18... 12 so long as you have the green.

The bottom line is that argument is one-sided because it doesn't work both ways. Nobody would say "You're old enough to drink a beer so you're old enough to die for your country" if the ages were reversed.

The point is you are either a full adult or you are not. This one foot in the door one foot out is what is stupid.

Increase the age requirements for all those other things to 21.
Problem solved.

There is no "one foot in the door one foot out" with that.

 

[Rufus12]

Awesome news for me. 😛

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Lower the drinking age and watch the drunk driving deaths go up. Hell people in their 20's are irresponsible enough when it comes to drinking.

As for old enough to fight for your country argument, I believe that those who are under 21 but are enlisted should be albel to purchase booze, they would just have to produce a valid pictured Military ID.

Your prediction assumes that the 21 laws have ANY effect on teen drinking.

It does not. So if just as many teens are drinking with or without the 21 law, how would DUI rates among their ages be affected at all? They would not. Whether it's driving to an illegal house party or to a bar, they are still driving.

At least with bringing it out from underground teen-only parties you'll have teens exposed to more mature drinkers and will learn moderation and responsibility much sooner.

Can you provide links to actual statistics that prove your points?

Not a statistic but look at Europe, Canada and just about every other civilized nation.

You're going to have a much higher level of drunk driving due to the higher car/per person ratio in the US.

American teenagers had a higher rate of intoxication than their counterparts in half of the European countries. When compared to teenagers in Southern Europe, which has very liberal views regarding alcohol, American teens were more likely to have been drunk in the last 30 days (21 percent vs. 13 percent). And while more than half of the American teenagers who drank reported getting drunk, less than a fourth of young Southern European drinkers said they had been intoxicated.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/29270.html

These countries have no or 16 year old age limits on alcohol

So no. Again, your assumtion does not stand up.

If anything, driving it underground INCREASES teen drinking, since rates went UP after the mid 80s 21 laws. NOT down.

Again, the number of teens drinking is what will have an effect on teen DUIs, and the 21 laws have NONE, if not a NEGATIVE effect on the rates of teen drinking.

When will people learn that trying to control vice with laws only makes it worse???

 

[KK]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Lower the drinking age and watch the drunk driving deaths go up. Hell people in their 20's are irresponsible enough when it comes to drinking.

As for old enough to fight for your country argument, I believe that those who are under 21 but are enlisted should be albel to purchase booze, they would just have to produce a valid pictured Military ID.

Your prediction assumes that the 21 laws have ANY effect on teen drinking.

It does not. So if just as many teens are drinking with or without the 21 law, how would DUI rates among their ages be affected at all? They would not. Whether it's driving to an illegal house party or to a bar, they are still driving.

At least with bringing it out from underground teen-only parties you'll have teens exposed to more mature drinkers and will learn moderation and responsibility much sooner.

Well, it does make it harder for teens to get alcohol. And it won't stop underground teen parties, you think lowering the drinking age will make teens want to drink with their parents? You think guys in their 20s want to drink with teenagers? Well, besides the attractive female ones anyway? Which brings up another interesting avenue of discussion...

I remain skeptical.

There is a reason underground teen house parties exist: Because alcohol is illegal to them.

Nothing legal is driven underground.

And yes, 18-21 year olds would end up at the same bars the 21-28 age group frequent.

Lowering the age limit would lower the harmful and immature binge drinking so many teens do. They will be exposed to more mature drinkers in the bars and learn moderation and responsibility. A passed out drinker at a teen house party is funny and normal. It's sad and pathetic in a bar. Even a bar filled with early 20s college students.

And the US is one of the few developed nations with a late teen binge drinking problem. The reason it doesn't exist in most other developed nations is the drinking age is much lower or non-existent.

When you drive anything underground, be it drinking or drug use, you make it WORSE.

Finally, only a fool believes the 21 laws have ANY effect of teen drinking. Just go to any college.

"The facts speak for themselves," he said. "Once the drinking age was raised, the number of alcohol-related fatalities decreased. To me, saving lives is the grandest argument of them all."

Is this true or not? Kind of hard to argue with facts...

You raise the driving age to 21, you'll also save lives. Hell, lets just ban driving all together and get rid of all driving fatalities.

 

[Injury]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: Injury
I hate threads related to alcohol age because someone ALWAYS brings up the "If you can fight and die for your country you should be able to drink" BS.

It's always such bull crap. First off, joining the military is VOLUNTARY. There is no draft. Short of a mass-scale world war, there will likely not be another draft. So you wanna be able to drink because you could die for your country? FINE. JOIN THE MILITARY THEN TALK. Put up or shut up, I think. Second, take anyone in the military in a military town and go to a bar with your military ID. See if you get refused service. Some will, most won't. FFS, it's easy enough for underage drinkers to get alcohol as it is without any mention of military. Have you never been on a college campus? Never had a friend work at the local gas station? Never had a drive-thru where that one guy just wants your money and really doesn't give a crap if you're 21... 18... 12 so long as you have the green.

The bottom line is that argument is one-sided because it doesn't work both ways. Nobody would say "You're old enough to drink a beer so you're old enough to die for your country" if the ages were reversed.

The point is you are either a full adult or you are not. This one foot in the door one foot out is what is stupid.

Your mistake is thinking that coming into adulthood is black/white and that the day you turn 18 you change from one to the next. The goal of military training is to keep you from dying... and it's become pretty effective. Buying booze doesn't come with training and I believe more people have died as a result of intoxication in the past 5 years than have died in the military. Only maturity, which many 18 years old sure as hell don't have, can give you the piece of mind to be smart about your consumption.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Aharami

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Lower the drinking age and watch the drunk driving deaths go up. Hell people in their 20's are irresponsible enough when it comes to drinking.

As for old enough to fight for your country argument, I believe that those who are under 21 but are enlisted should be albel to purchase booze, they would just have to produce a valid pictured Military ID.

Your prediction assumes that the 21 laws have ANY effect on teen drinking.

It does not. So if just as many teens are drinking with or without the 21 law, how would DUI rates among their ages be affected at all? They would not. Whether it's driving to an illegal house party or to a bar, they are still driving.

At least with bringing it out from underground teen-only parties you'll have teens exposed to more mature drinkers and will learn moderation and responsibility much sooner.

how do you know parties will consist of mixed ages if the drinking age is lowered? teens will party with other teens, twenty-somethings will party with other twenty-somethings and so on...

edit. nevermind. this was already brought up by JulesMaximus

And I already shot it down. There are countless -21 year olds with fake IDs who party where??? Bars and nightclubs with a 21-28 age range. Which is right where they all will end up if the 21 laws are repealed.

 

[Kalvin00]

Originally posted by: Injury

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: Injury
I hate threads related to alcohol age because someone ALWAYS brings up the "If you can fight and die for your country you should be able to drink" BS.

It's always such bull crap. First off, joining the military is VOLUNTARY. There is no draft. Short of a mass-scale world war, there will likely not be another draft. So you wanna be able to drink because you could die for your country? FINE. JOIN THE MILITARY THEN TALK. Put up or shut up, I think. Second, take anyone in the military in a military town and go to a bar with your military ID. See if you get refused service. Some will, most won't. FFS, it's easy enough for underage drinkers to get alcohol as it is without any mention of military. Have you never been on a college campus? Never had a friend work at the local gas station? Never had a drive-thru where that one guy just wants your money and really doesn't give a crap if you're 21... 18... 12 so long as you have the green.

The bottom line is that argument is one-sided because it doesn't work both ways. Nobody would say "You're old enough to drink a beer so you're old enough to die for your country" if the ages were reversed.

The point is you are either a full adult or you are not. This one foot in the door one foot out is what is stupid.

Your mistake is thinking that coming into adulthood is black/white and that the day you turn 18 you change from one to the next. The goal of military training is to keep you from dying... and it's become pretty effective. Buying booze doesn't come with training. Only maturity, which many 18 years old sure as hell don't have, can give that.

:roll: you don't get it...THEY'RE ALREADY GETTING THEIR BOOZE.

 

[Injury]

Originally posted by: KK

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

"The facts speak for themselves," he said. "Once the drinking age was raised, the number of alcohol-related fatalities decreased. To me, saving lives is the grandest argument of them all."

Is this true or not? Kind of hard to argue with facts...

You raise the driving age to 21, you'll also save lives. Hell, lets just ban driving all together and get rid of all driving fatalities.

Wow. There's gotta be at least two logical fallacies in there.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Lower the drinking age and watch the drunk driving deaths go up. Hell people in their 20's are irresponsible enough when it comes to drinking.

As for old enough to fight for your country argument, I believe that those who are under 21 but are enlisted should be albel to purchase booze, they would just have to produce a valid pictured Military ID.

Your prediction assumes that the 21 laws have ANY effect on teen drinking.

It does not. So if just as many teens are drinking with or without the 21 law, how would DUI rates among their ages be affected at all? They would not. Whether it's driving to an illegal house party or to a bar, they are still driving.

At least with bringing it out from underground teen-only parties you'll have teens exposed to more mature drinkers and will learn moderation and responsibility much sooner.

Well, it does make it harder for teens to get alcohol. And it won't stop underground teen parties, you think lowering the drinking age will make teens want to drink with their parents? You think guys in their 20s want to drink with teenagers? Well, besides the attractive female ones anyway? Which brings up another interesting avenue of discussion...

I remain skeptical.

There is a reason underground teen house parties exist: Because alcohol is illegal to them.

Nothing legal is driven underground.

And yes, 18-21 year olds would end up at the same bars the 21-28 age group frequent.

Lowering the age limit would lower the harmful and immature binge drinking so many teens do. They will be exposed to more mature drinkers in the bars and learn moderation and responsibility. A passed out drinker at a teen house party is funny and normal. It's sad and pathetic in a bar. Even a bar filled with early 20s college students.

And the US is one of the few developed nations with a late teen binge drinking problem. The reason it doesn't exist in most other developed nations is the drinking age is much lower or non-existent.

When you drive anything underground, be it drinking or drug use, you make it WORSE.

Finally, only a fool believes the 21 laws have ANY effect of teen drinking. Just go to any college.

"The facts speak for themselves," he said. "Once the drinking age was raised, the number of alcohol-related fatalities decreased. To me, saving lives is the grandest argument of them all."

Is this true or not? Kind of hard to argue with facts...

It's nice that you so easily fall for propaganda.

DUI fatalities have been steadily dropping for ALL ages for the last 20 years. There was NO sudden drop off after the mid 80s passing of the 21 laws. Note the wording? It says "steadily dropping." Well, DUH!!! AWARENESS and ENFORCEMENT of DUI laws has brought that on across ALL age groups.

The 21 laws had a NEGATIVE effect on teen drinking. Teen drinking rates ROSE after the passing of the 21 laws and PEAKED a full 15 years later.

The actual statistics prove you guys flatly wrong. The 21 laws had NO positive effect on teen drinking rates, and, if anything, may have actually caused them to RISE.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: Injury
I hate threads related to alcohol age because someone ALWAYS brings up the "If you can fight and die for your country you should be able to drink" BS.

It's always such bull crap. First off, joining the military is VOLUNTARY. There is no draft. Short of a mass-scale world war, there will likely not be another draft. So you wanna be able to drink because you could die for your country? FINE. JOIN THE MILITARY THEN TALK. Put up or shut up, I think. Second, take anyone in the military in a military town and go to a bar with your military ID. See if you get refused service. Some will, most won't. FFS, it's easy enough for underage drinkers to get alcohol as it is without any mention of military. Have you never been on a college campus? Never had a friend work at the local gas station? Never had a drive-thru where that one guy just wants your money and really doesn't give a crap if you're 21... 18... 12 so long as you have the green.

The bottom line is that argument is one-sided because it doesn't work both ways. Nobody would say "You're old enough to drink a beer so you're old enough to die for your country" if the ages were reversed.

The point is you are either a full adult or you are not. This one foot in the door one foot out is what is stupid.

Increase the age requirements for all those other things to 21.
Problem solved.

There is no "one foot in the door one foot out" with that.

So long as you are ok with 19 year old murderers be tried as juveniles.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Lower the drinking age and watch the drunk driving deaths go up. Hell people in their 20's are irresponsible enough when it comes to drinking.

As for old enough to fight for your country argument, I believe that those who are under 21 but are enlisted should be albel to purchase booze, they would just have to produce a valid pictured Military ID.

Your prediction assumes that the 21 laws have ANY effect on teen drinking.

It does not. So if just as many teens are drinking with or without the 21 law, how would DUI rates among their ages be affected at all? They would not. Whether it's driving to an illegal house party or to a bar, they are still driving.

At least with bringing it out from underground teen-only parties you'll have teens exposed to more mature drinkers and will learn moderation and responsibility much sooner.

Can you provide links to actual statistics that prove your points?

Not a statistic but look at Europe, Canada and just about every other civilized nation.

You're going to have a much higher level of drunk driving due to the higher car/per person ratio in the US.

American teenagers had a higher rate of intoxication than their counterparts in half of the European countries. When compared to teenagers in Southern Europe, which has very liberal views regarding alcohol, American teens were more likely to have been drunk in the last 30 days (21 percent vs. 13 percent). And while more than half of the American teenagers who drank reported getting drunk, less than a fourth of young Southern European drinkers said they had been intoxicated.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/29270.html

These countries have no or 16 year old age limits on alcohol

So no. Again, your assumtion does not stand up.

If anything, driving it underground INCREASES teen drinking, since rates went UP after the mid 80s 21 laws. NOT down.

Again, the number of teens drinking is what will have an effect on teen DUIs, and the 21 laws have NONE, if not a NEGATIVE effect on the rates of teen drinking.

When will people learn that trying to control vice with laws only makes it worse???

There are many factors that could cause an increase in teen drinking. You are making sweeping generalizations here but not stating any facts.

Seatbelt laws had a positive effect on reducing fatalities in automobile accidents yet you'd have us believe that trying to control actions with laws only makes it worse...

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Lower the drinking age and watch the drunk driving deaths go up. Hell people in their 20's are irresponsible enough when it comes to drinking.

As for old enough to fight for your country argument, I believe that those who are under 21 but are enlisted should be albel to purchase booze, they would just have to produce a valid pictured Military ID.

Your prediction assumes that the 21 laws have ANY effect on teen drinking.

It does not. So if just as many teens are drinking with or without the 21 law, how would DUI rates among their ages be affected at all? They would not. Whether it's driving to an illegal house party or to a bar, they are still driving.

At least with bringing it out from underground teen-only parties you'll have teens exposed to more mature drinkers and will learn moderation and responsibility much sooner.

Can you provide links to actual statistics that prove your points?

Not a statistic but look at Europe, Canada and just about every other civilized nation.

You're going to have a much higher level of drunk driving due to the higher car/per person ratio in the US.

What you don't get is they are drinking anyways. It making it legal to drink does not make it legal to drink and drive.

And making alcohol more accessible will only increase the number of those drinking which will lead to more drinking and driving.

Between fake ID's and unregulated house parties.....how much more accessible can alchohol be on college campuses without having an actual bar in the cafeteria or beer vending machines?

 

[jjones]

The largest factors that have lowered the drunk driving fatalities is education and enforcement. How long has real national awareness of drunk driving problems been in effect? How long has advocation of designated drivers been happening? How long have we had much stricter laws and enforcement of driving while drunk?

I'm 47 years old and I can tell you that all of these things began in the late 70s and really came to be effective in the early 80s. The same time the national drinking age was changed to 21. MADD says it is the drinking age being 21 that has decreased drunk driving fatalities, but honestly, that theory is just riding on the coattails of what has really been the most effective in curtailing drunk driving: greater awareness of the problem and stricter enforcement of driving while drunk.

I don't see kids that want to get drunk getting any less drunk just because they're not supposed to. I do agree with Saulbadguy that a decent compromise would be allowing 18 - 20 to purchase, but not be served at bars and being subject to a 0 tolerance policy when behind the wheel.

 

[Josh]

Originally posted by: loup garou

Originally posted by: Amused
I'm going to be 41 years old this year and I still believe if you're old enough to fight and die for your country and vote in your leaders, you should be old enough to do anything any other adult does.

MADD is nothing more than a prohibition organization anymore. A bunch of axe weilding Carrie Nations. Even the founder has said this and is disgusted by the organization now.

100% agreed.

:thumbsup:

:beer:😀

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Originally posted by: Injury

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: Injury
I hate threads related to alcohol age because someone ALWAYS brings up the "If you can fight and die for your country you should be able to drink" BS.

It's always such bull crap. First off, joining the military is VOLUNTARY. There is no draft. Short of a mass-scale world war, there will likely not be another draft. So you wanna be able to drink because you could die for your country? FINE. JOIN THE MILITARY THEN TALK. Put up or shut up, I think. Second, take anyone in the military in a military town and go to a bar with your military ID. See if you get refused service. Some will, most won't. FFS, it's easy enough for underage drinkers to get alcohol as it is without any mention of military. Have you never been on a college campus? Never had a friend work at the local gas station? Never had a drive-thru where that one guy just wants your money and really doesn't give a crap if you're 21... 18... 12 so long as you have the green.

The bottom line is that argument is one-sided because it doesn't work both ways. Nobody would say "You're old enough to drink a beer so you're old enough to die for your country" if the ages were reversed.

The point is you are either a full adult or you are not. This one foot in the door one foot out is what is stupid.

Your mistake is thinking that coming into adulthood is black/white and that the day you turn 18 you change from one to the next. The goal of military training is to keep you from dying... and it's become pretty effective. Buying booze doesn't come with training and I believe more people have died as a result of intoxication in the past 5 years than have died in the military. Only maturity, which many 18 years old sure as hell don't have, can give you the piece of mind to be smart about your consumption.

i have no idea what the military or its training regiment has to do with this. Are you implying that military boys are responsible drinkers?? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA .........

this part is particularly funny......more people have died as a result of intoxication in the past 5 years than have died in the military.
no shit sherlock.....how many people are in the military? How many people drink?

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Lower the drinking age and watch the drunk driving deaths go up. Hell people in their 20's are irresponsible enough when it comes to drinking.

As for old enough to fight for your country argument, I believe that those who are under 21 but are enlisted should be albel to purchase booze, they would just have to produce a valid pictured Military ID.

Your prediction assumes that the 21 laws have ANY effect on teen drinking.

It does not. So if just as many teens are drinking with or without the 21 law, how would DUI rates among their ages be affected at all? They would not. Whether it's driving to an illegal house party or to a bar, they are still driving.

At least with bringing it out from underground teen-only parties you'll have teens exposed to more mature drinkers and will learn moderation and responsibility much sooner.

Well, it does make it harder for teens to get alcohol. And it won't stop underground teen parties, you think lowering the drinking age will make teens want to drink with their parents? You think guys in their 20s want to drink with teenagers? Well, besides the attractive female ones anyway? Which brings up another interesting avenue of discussion...

I remain skeptical.

There is a reason underground teen house parties exist: Because alcohol is illegal to them.

Nothing legal is driven underground.

And yes, 18-21 year olds would end up at the same bars the 21-28 age group frequent.

Lowering the age limit would lower the harmful and immature binge drinking so many teens do. They will be exposed to more mature drinkers in the bars and learn moderation and responsibility. A passed out drinker at a teen house party is funny and normal. It's sad and pathetic in a bar. Even a bar filled with early 20s college students.

And the US is one of the few developed nations with a late teen binge drinking problem. The reason it doesn't exist in most other developed nations is the drinking age is much lower or non-existent.

When you drive anything underground, be it drinking or drug use, you make it WORSE.

Finally, only a fool believes the 21 laws have ANY effect of teen drinking. Just go to any college.

"The facts speak for themselves," he said. "Once the drinking age was raised, the number of alcohol-related fatalities decreased. To me, saving lives is the grandest argument of them all."

Is this true or not? Kind of hard to argue with facts...

It's nice that you so easily fall for propaganda.

DUI fatalities have been steadily dropping for ALL ages for the last 20 years. There was NO sudden drop off after the mid 80s passing of the 21 laws. Note the wording? It says "steadily dropping." Well, DUH!!! AWARENESS and ENFORCEMENT of DUI laws has brought that on across ALL age groups.

The 21 laws had a NEGATIVE effect on teen drinking. Teen drinking rates ROSE after the passing of the 21 laws and PEAKED a full 15 years later.

The actual statistics prove you guys flatly wrong. The 21 laws had NO positive effect on teen drinking rates, and, if anything, may have actually caused them to RISE.

Well, I asked a simple question. Is it true or not?

Nobody has definitively answered that question yet...including you.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Lower the drinking age and watch the drunk driving deaths go up. Hell people in their 20's are irresponsible enough when it comes to drinking.

As for old enough to fight for your country argument, I believe that those who are under 21 but are enlisted should be albel to purchase booze, they would just have to produce a valid pictured Military ID.

Your prediction assumes that the 21 laws have ANY effect on teen drinking.

It does not. So if just as many teens are drinking with or without the 21 law, how would DUI rates among their ages be affected at all? They would not. Whether it's driving to an illegal house party or to a bar, they are still driving.

At least with bringing it out from underground teen-only parties you'll have teens exposed to more mature drinkers and will learn moderation and responsibility much sooner.

Can you provide links to actual statistics that prove your points?

Not a statistic but look at Europe, Canada and just about every other civilized nation.

You're going to have a much higher level of drunk driving due to the higher car/per person ratio in the US.

American teenagers had a higher rate of intoxication than their counterparts in half of the European countries. When compared to teenagers in Southern Europe, which has very liberal views regarding alcohol, American teens were more likely to have been drunk in the last 30 days (21 percent vs. 13 percent). And while more than half of the American teenagers who drank reported getting drunk, less than a fourth of young Southern European drinkers said they had been intoxicated.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/29270.html

These countries have no or 16 year old age limits on alcohol

So no. Again, your assumtion does not stand up.

If anything, driving it underground INCREASES teen drinking, since rates went UP after the mid 80s 21 laws. NOT down.

Again, the number of teens drinking is what will have an effect on teen DUIs, and the 21 laws have NONE, if not a NEGATIVE effect on the rates of teen drinking.

When will people learn that trying to control vice with laws only makes it worse???

There are many factors that could cause an increase in teen drinking. You are making sweeping generalizations here but not stating any facts.

Seatbelt laws had a positive effect on reducing fatalities in automobile accidents yet you'd have us believe that trying to control actions with laws only makes it worse...

Comparing saetbelt laws to anti-vice laws is hysterical. Tell me, did laws stop or even slow the rates of drug abuse? Prostitution? Gambling? Adultery? Underage sex? Premarital sex? Sodomy?

No.

As a matter of fact, even Prohibition had a NEGATIVE effect on alcohol abuse.

Again, there is NO positive correlation between the 21 laws and teen drinking. In fact, there is a NEGATIVE correlation. So claiming that 21 laws lowered teen drinking then, or now is absurd. It did nothing of the sort.