Vermont looks at lowering drinking age

[moshquerade]

Good idea? Bad idea?

Vermont looks at lowering drinking age
Bill would create task force to weigh idea
By Associated Press
Friday, February 29, 2008 - Added 4h ago

MONTPELIER, Vt. - More than two decades after the country established a uniform drinking age of 21, a nascent movement is afoot to allow 18- to 20-year-olds to legally buy alcohol under some circumstances.

Proponents say the higher age hasn?t kept young people from consuming alcohol and has instead driven underage consumption underground, particularly on college campuses.

"Our laws aren?t working. They?re not preventing underage drinking. What they?re doing is putting it outside the public eye," Vermont state Sen. Hinda Miller said. "So you have a lot of kids binge drinking. They get sick, they get scared and they get into trouble and they can?t call because they know it?s illegal."

On Thursday, a committee of the Vermont Senate approved Miller?s bill to have a task force weigh the pros and cons of rolling back the drinking age and make a recommendation to the Legislature early next year.

Organizations and lawmakers in other states are toying with similar ideas.

In South Dakota, Flandreau lawyer N. Bob Pesall has drafted an initiative petition to allow 19- and 20-year-olds to legally buy beer no stronger than 3.2 percent alcohol.

In Missouri, a group is using the Internet social networking sites Facebook and Meetup to try to collect more than 100,000 signatures to get a measure on the ballot to lower the drinking age to 18.

In South Carolina and Wisconsin, lawmakers have proposed allowing active duty military personnel younger than 21 to buy alcohol. A similar proposal was rejected last year in New Hampshire.

And last year, former Middlebury College president John McCardell started Choose Responsibility, a nonprofit that favors allowing 18- to 20-year-olds to legally buy booze once they?ve completed an alcohol education program.

"We don?t simply advocate the lower age, but believe mandatory alcohol education and licensing with very strict enforcement for violations of the state?s alcohol laws might work," McCardell said.

Mothers Against Drunk Driving and others call this folly to even consider, saying the higher age limit has saved thousands of lives since the 1984 enactment of the National Minimum Drinking Age Act. The act required states to raise the age to 21 or lose federal transportation money. South Dakota was the last state to comply, in 1988.

Vermont voted to raise the age in 1985, and in the ensuing 20 years, alcohol-related traffic fatalities dropped by 40 percent, according to Vermont State Police.

"Is there any significant support in the U.S. Congress for changing the law? We don?t see that," said Chuck Hurley, CEO of MADD.

Typically, when states flirt with the idea, they quickly abandon it for fear of losing the highway funding, he said.

Vermont stands to lose about $17 million a year if it were to flout the federal government and lower the drinking age.

McCardell said an effort is under way to persuade Congress to grant waivers exempting states from financial penalty if they lower the age.

"If Congress would grant a waiver, the states would be willing to try something, and at least then we could get some evidence and see whether things are better or worse," he said Thursday.

Politically, it?s a hard sell, in part because there are other public health hazards associated with excessive alcohol consumption, not just highway fatalities.

But proponents of a younger drinking age say alcohol-related highway fatalities were dropping before the legal drinking age was lowered, and argue underground drinking presents its own risks.
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In 2006, 28.3 percent of youngsters aged 12 to 20 said they?d had a drink in the past month and 19 percent were defined as binge drinkers, according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services? National Survey on Drug Use and Health. The survey defined a binge drinker as someone who, in the past month, had drunk five or more alcoholic beverages within several hours.

Miller, a Democrat, says she isn?t sure that lowering the drinking age is the answer, but calls the idea worth exploring.

Her bill, which calls for a report to the Legislature by Jan. 15, does not propose a specific drinking age, only sets up a five-member task force to study the implications of lowering the age from 21. The bill now goes to the full Senate.

State Sen. Vincent Illuzzi, chairman of the committee that approved the bill, said he would vote against lowering the age if he had to decide now.

But he said it?s nonetheless worth looking into.

"I sense the Senate will buy into our rationale, that a law on the books for 20 years should have a look-see, to see if it?s having its intended effect or should be modified," said Illuzzi, a Republican.

But critics are leery.

"I think it is irresponsible legislation, to be quite honest," said William Goggins, director of education and enforcement for the state Liquor Control Board.

"The facts speak for themselves," he said. "Once the drinking age was raised, the number of alcohol-related fatalities decreased. To me, saving lives is the grandest argument of them all."

http://www.bostonherald.com/ne...c=home&position=recent

 

[Saulbadguy]

There is a reason that the age is 21. 16-21 year olds are the most dangerous drivers on the road. You don't want to mix alcohol in to that.

 

[Amused]

I'm going to be 41 years old this year and I still believe if you're old enough to fight and die for your country and vote in your leaders, you should be old enough to do anything any other adult does.

MADD is nothing more than a prohibition organization anymore. A bunch of axe weilding Carrie Nations. Even the founder has said this and is disgusted by the organization now.

 

[loup garou]

Originally posted by: Amused
I'm going to be 41 years old this year and I still believe if you're old enough to fight and die for your country and vote in your leaders, you should be old enough to do anything any other adult does.

MADD is nothing more than a prohibition organization anymore. A bunch of axe weilding Carrie Nations. Even the founder has said this and is disgusted by the organization now.

100% agreed.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Amused
I'm going to be 41 years old this year and I still believe if you're old enough to fight and die for your country and vote in your leaders, you should be old enough to do anything any other adult does.

:thumbsup:

 

[Saulbadguy]

Originally posted by: Amused
I'm going to be 41 years old this year and I still believe if you're old enough to fight and die for your country and vote in your leaders, you should be old enough to do anything any other adult does.

MADD is nothing more than a prohibition organization anymore. A bunch of axe weilding Carrie Nations. Even the founder has said this and is disgusted by the organization now.

I disagree, only for the fact that so many more cars are on the road today than there were back when the legal drinking age was 18.

A compromise I would accept would be 18 year olds are allowed to purchase liquor, but not be served at bars, and have a 0 tolerance policy for drinking and driving (like they do now for anyone under 21, any BAC% will result in a DUI)

 

[olds]

Originally posted by: Amused
I'm going to be 41 years old this year and I still believe if you're old enough to fight and die for your country and vote in your leaders, you should be old enough to do anything any other adult does.

I concur.

But, I always thought Federal road dollars were tied to the drinking age.
IE, if you didn't set the legal age to 21 in your state the feds would with-hold tax monies for roads.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: loup garou

Originally posted by: Amused
I'm going to be 41 years old this year and I still believe if you're old enough to fight and die for your country and vote in your leaders, you should be old enough to do anything any other adult does.

MADD is nothing more than a prohibition organization anymore. A bunch of axe weilding Carrie Nations. Even the founder has said this and is disgusted by the organization now.

100% agreed.

Yep, and I guarantee that if MADD thought they could increase the drinking age even higher, or outright ban alcohol, they would in a heartbeat.

But they know that won't fly. So their present agenda is to lower the maximum BAC allowable while driving to 0. .08 is already an absolutely ridiculously low limit and would never have come about if not for MADD propaganda.

 

[Saulbadguy]

I'd also add that "fighting and dying for your country" has little to do with drinking.

I had to pay income taxes at age 16, why can't I drink then?

 

[daveshel]

Originally posted by: Amused
I'm going to be 41 years old this year and I still believe if you're old enough to fight and die for your country and vote in your leaders, you should be old enough to do anything any other adult does.

MADD is nothing more than a prohibition organization anymore. A bunch of axe weilding Carrie Nations. Even the founder has said this and is disgusted by the organization now.

Vigilante justice has never been a good thing.

 

[olds]

Originally posted by: daveshel

Originally posted by: Amused
I'm going to be 41 years old this year and I still believe if you're old enough to fight and die for your country and vote in your leaders, you should be old enough to do anything any other adult does.

MADD is nothing more than a prohibition organization anymore. A bunch of axe weilding Carrie Nations. Even the founder has said this and is disgusted by the organization now.

Vigilante justice has never been a good thing.

Take that back or me and my posse are going to come over there and bust a cap in your ass.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
There is a reason that the age is 21. 16-21 year olds are the most dangerous drivers on the road. You don't want to mix alcohol in to that.

if it was based soley on driving ability women would never be allowed to drink no matter what age

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
I'd also add that "fighting and dying for your country" has little to do with drinking.

I had to pay income taxes at age 16, why can't I drink then?

The vast majority of countries in Europe allow 16 and older to drink. Many have no age limit at all. Some have mixed limits with some limitations between 16 and 18.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_drinking_age

Now explain to me why their societies have not fallen apart?

Age bans on alcohol do not stop teens from drinking anymore than drug bans stop drug abuse. They merely shift from bars to illegal house parties.

And when teens are forced to only drink with other teens because it's illegal, they learn nothing about moderation from their elders. All they hear from their elders is "no."

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
I'd also add that "fighting and dying for your country" has little to do with drinking.

I had to pay income taxes at age 16, why can't I drink then?

The vast majority of countries in Europe allow 16 and older to drink. Many have no age limit at all. Some have mixed limits with some limitations between 16 and 18.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_drinking_age

Now explain to me why their societies have not fallen apart?

Age bans on alcohol do not stop teens from drinking anymore than drug bans stop drug abuse. They merely shift from bars to illegal house parties.

And when teens are forced to only drink with other teens because it's illegal, they learn nothing about moderation from their elders. All they hear from their elders is "no."

it shoudl be noted that getting a licence in many european countries is MUCH harder then it is in the US, its a fing joke here

they also have better public trans, however i still agree with you

 

[Saulbadguy]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
I'd also add that "fighting and dying for your country" has little to do with drinking.

I had to pay income taxes at age 16, why can't I drink then?

The vast majority of countries in Europe allow 16 and older to drink. Many have no age limit at all. Some have mixed limits with some limitations between 16 and 18.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_drinking_age

Now explain to me why their societies have not fallen apart?

Age bans on alcohol do not stop teens from drinking anymore than drug bans stop drug abuse. They merely shift from bars to illegal house parties.

And when teens are forced to only drink with other teens because it's illegal, they learn nothing about moderation from their elders. All they hear from their elders is "no."

Drivers. Drivers. Drivers. How many cars do those countries have? Many of those countries you can drink before you can get a drivers license.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
I'd also add that "fighting and dying for your country" has little to do with drinking.

I had to pay income taxes at age 16, why can't I drink then?

The vast majority of countries in Europe allow 16 and older to drink. Many have no age limit at all. Some have mixed limits with some limitations between 16 and 18.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_drinking_age

Now explain to me why their societies have not fallen apart?

Age bans on alcohol do not stop teens from drinking anymore than drug bans stop drug abuse. They merely shift from bars to illegal house parties.

And when teens are forced to only drink with other teens because it's illegal, they learn nothing about moderation from their elders. All they hear from their elders is "no."

Drivers. Drivers. Drivers. How many cars do those countries have? Many of those countries you can drink before you can get a drivers license.

If drunk driving is the problem, focus on that, not robbing people of their freedoms.

Who appointed you, or MADD the national fscking parent of legal adults?

At 18 in the US you are legally an adult with ALL the freedoms and ALL responsibilities of an adult, save one: Alcohol. It makes no sense whatsoever.

And I posit that driving teen drinking underground INCREASES the chances of teen drunk driving. They do not learn moderation or responsibility from their elders as they would if they were not forced to drink only with other teens.

DUI has decreased steadily over the last 20 years because of AWARENESS and ENFORCEMENT. There was NO sudden drop off of DUIs when states passed 21 laws. Even MADD knows this, and carefully worded their quote in the article to make it SEEM as if 21 laws decreased DUIs. Another piece of bullsh!t propaganda from the US tea-totaler organization.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
There is a reason that the age is 21. 16-21 year olds are the most dangerous drivers on the road. You don't want to mix alcohol in to that.

I'm pretty sure the reason is because if a state sets it to 18 they lose a bunch of state highway funding from the federal government.

 

[olds]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
There is a reason that the age is 21. 16-21 year olds are the most dangerous drivers on the road. You don't want to mix alcohol in to that.

I'm pretty sure the reason is because if a state sets it to 18 they lose a bunch of state highway funding from the federal government.

Repost

 

[markgm]

I'm for it, but up here in the Northeast we don't have single cans of beer at the cash register sitting on ice like some states down South I've been to. How in the world anyone thinks that's a good idea is beyond me. I think half the reason kids drink is because it's doing something 'bad'.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
There is a reason that the age is 21. 16-21 year olds are the most dangerous drivers on the road. You don't want to mix alcohol in to that.

I'm pretty sure the reason is because if a state sets it to 18 they lose a bunch of state highway funding from the federal government.

Repost

So was yours because the orginal article covered that.

Neither of you read the article, did you?

 

[Saulbadguy]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
I'd also add that "fighting and dying for your country" has little to do with drinking.

I had to pay income taxes at age 16, why can't I drink then?

The vast majority of countries in Europe allow 16 and older to drink. Many have no age limit at all. Some have mixed limits with some limitations between 16 and 18.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_drinking_age

Now explain to me why their societies have not fallen apart?

Age bans on alcohol do not stop teens from drinking anymore than drug bans stop drug abuse. They merely shift from bars to illegal house parties.

And when teens are forced to only drink with other teens because it's illegal, they learn nothing about moderation from their elders. All they hear from their elders is "no."

Drivers. Drivers. Drivers. How many cars do those countries have? Many of those countries you can drink before you can get a drivers license.

If drunk driving is the problem, focus on that, not robbing people of their freedoms.

Who appointed you, or MADD the national fscking parent of legal adults?

At 18 in the US you are legally an adult with ALL the freedoms and ALL responsibilities of an adult, save one: Alcohol. It makes no sense whatsoever.

And I posit that driving teen drinking underground INCREASES the chances of teen drunk driving. They do not learn moderation or responsibility from their elders as they would if they were not forced to drink only with other teens.

DUI has decreased steadily over the last 20 years because of AWARENESS and ENFORCEMENT. There was NO sudden drop off of DUIs when states passed 21 laws. Even MADD knows this, and carefully worded their quote in the article to make it SEEM as if 21 laws decreased DUIs. Another piece of bullsh!t propaganda from the US tea-totaler organization.

That is why I posted the "compromise". I have no problem with a minor drinking at home, or at a party, as long as they don't drive.

Oh - you can't gamble in most states until you are 21, either. You also can not run for president.

 

[olds]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
There is a reason that the age is 21. 16-21 year olds are the most dangerous drivers on the road. You don't want to mix alcohol in to that.

I'm pretty sure the reason is because if a state sets it to 18 they lose a bunch of state highway funding from the federal government.

Repost

So was yours because the orginal article covered that.

Neither of you read the article, did you?

Read? This is ATOT not a MENSA meeting.
:shocked:

 

[MetalMat]

It should be lowered to at LEAST 18. This 21 year old law is a bunch of BS, I was drinking more before 21 than I do now. It is only a feel good policy that the Nazi ... I mean MADD organization imposed. MADD can go F themselves.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

I'm all for it. This half adult half not stuff is stupid. If you are legal responsible at 18, you should be able to drink, smoke, shoot, gamble and anything else. Like the article states the laws don't prevent underage drinking. Everyone I grew up with drank well before 18. ONce in college everyone drinks, regardless of age, its a social norm.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Is there any proof that lowering the drinking age reduces fatalities and medical costs?