Verizon Admits Turning Over Data Without Court Orders.

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Jeff7
It's more and more and more like 1984. People are complying with the system they'd otherwise hate, without even knowing it.

Some day, this will all come out. Some day, the cases will fall before judges who actually give a damn about upholding the Constitution, and their oath to this country to uphold it. On that day, I hope they deal out suitable sentences to Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, and their other criminal friends, who will hopefully still be alive to enjoy the fall of their empire.

This kind of thing is cyclical, even cowards can only be afraid for so long.

Indeed I'm finding that everything is cyclical. People get tired of dictatorships, so democracy is formed. Then they get complacent, and forget why a democracy was needed - to keep power in the hands of the public, not in the hands of a corrupt few, who start to form a dictatorship in the name of "the public good." All dictators throughout history have sought power out of a grand sense of altruism. We can trust them completely.

The standing question is though, what can be done about this? Somehow, protests in the form of large gatherings of stoned hippies listening to music just don't seem like the best idea. What's that leave, marching to Washington DC with torches, pitchforks, and molotov cocktails?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Jeff7
It's more and more and more like 1984. People are complying with the system they'd otherwise hate, without even knowing it.

Some day, this will all come out. Some day, the cases will fall before judges who actually give a damn about upholding the Constitution, and their oath to this country to uphold it. On that day, I hope they deal out suitable sentences to Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, and their other criminal friends, who will hopefully still be alive to enjoy the fall of their empire.

This kind of thing is cyclical, even cowards can only be afraid for so long.

Indeed I'm finding that everything is cyclical. People get tired of dictatorships, so democracy is formed. Then they get complacent, and forget why a democracy was needed - to keep power in the hands of the public, not in the hands of a corrupt few, who start to form a dictatorship in the name of "the public good." All dictators throughout history have sought power out of a grand sense of altruism. We can trust them completely.

The standing question is though, what can be done about this? Somehow, protests in the form of large gatherings of stoned hippies listening to music just don't seem like the best idea. What's that leave, marching to Washington DC with torches, pitchforks, and molotov cocktails?

How about figure out a way to get the complacent public to friggin VOTE?

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Jeff7
It's more and more and more like 1984. People are complying with the system they'd otherwise hate, without even knowing it.

Some day, this will all come out. Some day, the cases will fall before judges who actually give a damn about upholding the Constitution, and their oath to this country to uphold it. On that day, I hope they deal out suitable sentences to Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, and their other criminal friends, who will hopefully still be alive to enjoy the fall of their empire.

This kind of thing is cyclical, even cowards can only be afraid for so long.

Indeed I'm finding that everything is cyclical. People get tired of dictatorships, so democracy is formed. Then they get complacent, and forget why a democracy was needed - to keep power in the hands of the public, not in the hands of a corrupt few, who start to form a dictatorship in the name of "the public good." All dictators throughout history have sought power out of a grand sense of altruism. We can trust them completely.

The standing question is though, what can be done about this? Somehow, protests in the form of large gatherings of stoned hippies listening to music just don't seem like the best idea. What's that leave, marching to Washington DC with torches, pitchforks, and molotov cocktails?

How about figure out a way to get the complacent public to friggin VOTE?

Vote or Die.

 

[ScottMac]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: Vic
The hate against the telcos is kind of red herring, don't you think? Seems to me that they're between a rock and a hard place. And where is Congress to take the Bush Admin to task for this? Is it is somehow easier for them to go after they telcos than the administration? Or merely more profitable for some?

What happens is that a series of word-parsing legal loops are established and everyone claims to be outside the loops.

* The gov't establishes a number of wiretapping programs.

* Under Program A the telcos say the gov't asked them to do it (though it is my understanding that National Security Letters expanded under the Patriot Act specificly allow TelCos to lie about it in the first place).

* Under Program B the telcos conduct expanded wiretapping

*The gov't says it's a matter of national security - can't talk about it because we are at war.

* The Telcos split total phone and data streams at major hubs - entire streams are data-mined.

* The gov't claims it is not data-mining (or ""driftnetting"") domesticly.

* Testimony is given under oath regarding wiretapping.

When any discrepency arises a persons can claim "I was refering to Program A and you are talking about Program B" or "A T & T was doing the driftnetting it was not the NSA"

and finally (kinda where we stand now...)

* Telcos are granted retroactive immunity for data-mining.

Which makes everything neat and tidy. . . .

Neat and tidy for the administration. Ask yourself, what profit motive could the telcos possible have in data-mining for the government? And where is Congress, except reauthorizing Patriot when it should have sunseted?
Pay no attention to the men behind the curtain, eh?

Following an unlawful order still makes you a criminal whether you're a civilian or military this is always the case.

If the government requires of you to commit an act that is against the law and you do it you are responsible for your criminal activity, there is not one instance (that i know of) where following orders exempts you from the rule of law.

In the end there are bigger fish to fry, but this whole deal with immunity only shows one thing, there is no rule of law and the constitution is "just a goddamn piece of paper" in the eyes of the current... regime.

I know, i know, i'm not even American and i should shut up and all that, this is just my take on the issue and trust me, i trust our British government even less than the US government. (even though Brown has actually been able to show some balls and stand on his own lately, so much better than the puppet Blair who was more sympathetic to GW than the people in the UK who opposed pretty much everything he did until he had to leave)

In many cases, your responsibility for following an unlawful order depends on the situation, in military and civilian circumstances.

In other cases, thre are laws that don't kick in unless some other underlying circumstances are in-play.

Probably the most trivial example is if you have a traffic signal that is broken and showing red in all four directions, and there's a cop directing traffic at that intersection.
The general concept of the law is that it's illegal to go through the red light UNLESS there's a cop (or other recognized legal authority) there telling you how to proceed. If there's no cop, then it's treated as a four-way stop by default.

As for the military (I was in the US Navy), you pretty much follow the illegal order if it doesn't place you or others (or property) in danger, then report it afterwards for administrative action. If it does endanger person or property, you can decline the order, but you'd better be right, or you'll pay with time, rate, and pay.

In both cases, civilian and military, there is generally some legal grey area provided for mitigating circumstances and situational decision-making. While the law is black & white (or created with that intention), the people enforcing and adjudicating the law are expected to apply some measure of humanity and common sense to their respective handling of the infraction.

.02