Venting about job applicants

[cbrunny]

What's the job? If it's highly technical/requires specialized training and/or credentials, you would have a reason to complain if you had 50+ applicants. If it is not technical, or doesn't require specialized training or credentials... well... you ought to just calm it down a bit.

 

[glenn1]

The job dimensions and qualifications are clearly stated on various job sites.

I can almost guarantee you're wrong about the level of clarity. The overwhelming majority of employers nowadays do a terribad job of writing job descriptions. First, you don't bother to show how you define common ambiguous titles like "analyst." Secondly, you write the description either with no details whatsover, or go so far down in the weeds of day-to-day insider minutia that it's worthless. Finally, for screening you rely completely on professional qualifications or expertise in your specific business processes and completely ignore equally important factors like overall business acumen, adaptability, and what general skillset tools and mentail traits the candidate would bring to solve any of your typical business problems. Then you act all surprised when you pick the guy with "20 years experience" and he winds up being a completely useless tool who can't work on a team and looks like this:

 

[cubby1223]

When I've searched through job postings in the IT field, either systems support or programming / development, the list of experience requirements, education requirements, and knowledge requirements make it such that the only people "qualified" have already secured full time jobs for $80+k/year, while this job posting is finding that same person for $45k!

...or the posted job is the entry level jobs where the listing is dripping with crap like:
We are looking for a motivated go-getter who is seeking the opportunity to work for a dynamic fast-moving company...

Did a quick search for IT jobs and this was the first line of one posting:
Awesome opportunity for a hard working, motivated professional seeking a rewarding career.


Bottom line is, job postings are terrible. The options are to apply to jobs where the job posters are nuts, or apply to the other jobs where the job posters are, again, nuts. There is a reason people send out applications and resumes to everyone. Because the ability to decipher exactly what the job is and what the company will hire, is not clear in the least.

 

[smackababy]

Something I've been seeing a lot is using "bug-free". "Writes bug-free code!" "Can lead a team, delivering bug-free code!" Nobody writes 100% bug-free code on any project with any amount of complexity. Doesn't happen.


And crying because you got too many applications seems rather stupid. Especially, when applying for jobs is a numbers games. There is zero harm in me sending in my resume to be CEO of a company, besides the 10 seconds it takes me to send it. And return, if for some reason they are idiots, is an interview for that position (and, since I am of the opinion that if they are willing to interview you, they are willing to hire you; I would likely be up there in candidacy, as I interview really well).

 

[XavierMace]

When I've searched through job postings in the IT field, either systems support or programming / development, the list of experience requirements, education requirements, and knowledge requirements make it such that the only people "qualified" have already secured full time jobs for $80+k/year, while this job posting is finding that same person for $45k!

So much THIS. I've been keeping an eye on Sys Admin positions in my area. City government had a posting wanting 5-10 years experience not just in general Windows or Even Linux admin, but 5-10 years in SAN and VMWare admin. NetApp and VMWare certs preferred. They were offering $47k/yr. I literally laughed out loud when I saw that. VCP alone typically puts you in the $80k-$90k range around here.

 

[Virge_]

I've never used a cover letter when applying online, primarily because most requisitions have some single-digit IQ HR intern attempting to create technical job requirements leading to stupid shit like "5+ years experience administering XenServer 6.4", or "5+ years experience with Windows Server 2012 R2".

If I don't get a job because I didn't provide a cover letter, it's not the type of progressive business I'd want to work for to begin with.. so win/win. I don't need to show you old fashioned pompous bullshit for my long history and skills as an architect to speak for themselves. For reference, over the past 15 years my IT history has included 2 Fortune 500 companies and 1 Fortune 50 company - none of which gave a shit about a cover letter.

Being more direct, fuck your cover letter requirement.

 

[SunnyD]

I can almost guarantee you're wrong about the level of clarity. The overwhelming majority of employers nowadays do a terribad job of writing job descriptions. First, you don't bother to show how you define common ambiguous titles like "analyst." Secondly, you write the description either with no details whatsover, or go so far down in the weeds of day-to-day insider minutia that it's worthless. Finally, for screening you rely completely on professional qualifications or expertise in your specific business processes and completely ignore equally important factors like overall business acumen, adaptability, and what general skillset tools and mentail traits the candidate would bring to solve any of your typical business problems. Then you act all surprised when you pick the guy with "20 years experience" and he winds up being a completely useless tool who can't work on a team and looks like this:

I like you. Can I come work for you? You sound like you'd be a kickass CEO.

 

[Hugo Drax]

As odd as it sounds, I could actually understand if unqualified people apply for jobs thinking maybe nobody else will apply and they'll get it by default.

That happened during the flash crash when stub quotes got filled. Maybe the Applicants are hoping ebola kicks in and they will be the last survivors and would get to fill the positions.

 

[PieIsAwesome]

Lol, I apply even if I don't meet all the "requirements." No cover letters either. Pretty standard as far as I'm aware. I don't think I know anyone that has applied having met all the "requirements" (i.e. HR fluff).

 

[frostedflakes]

Part of it is probably laziness (desperate people spamming their resume to anyone and everyone), but requirements on job applications these days can be pretty unrealistic too. Often it seems like the requirements are for their "ideal" candidate that they're never going to find, especially at the price they're willing to pay. Or at least that's the way I generally looked at them when applying.

Have been numerous times where I haven't met every requirement on the application but applied anyway because I genuinely felt I was qualified for the position, sometimes wrote up a good cover letter explaining why I would be a good fit, and still got a call back asking for an interview.

 

[Insomniator]

So much THIS. I've been keeping an eye on Sys Admin positions in my area. City government had a posting wanting 5-10 years experience not just in general Windows or Even Linux admin, but 5-10 years in SAN and VMWare admin. NetApp and VMWare certs preferred. They were offering $47k/yr. I literally laughed out loud when I saw that. VCP alone typically puts you in the $80k-$90k range around here.

I don't get why they think someone with 10 years of experience in those fields would take 47k. You could consult for probably 4x that if you actually know what you're doing (which you damn well better after 10 years).

In fact, I don't think anyone with any level of experience with virtualization and netapp and their certs would work for 47k. I was paid more for level 1 help desk.

So do those jobs eventually pay more, attract the worst of the worst, or never get filled?

 

[rcpratt]

I can almost guarantee you're wrong about the level of clarity. The overwhelming majority of employers nowadays do a terribad job of writing job descriptions. First, you don't bother to show how you define common ambiguous titles like "analyst." Secondly, you write the description either with no details whatsover, or go so far down in the weeds of day-to-day insider minutia that it's worthless. Finally, for screening you rely completely on professional qualifications or expertise in your specific business processes and completely ignore equally important factors like overall business acumen, adaptability, and what general skillset tools and mentail traits the candidate would bring to solve any of your typical business problems. Then you act all surprised when you pick the guy with "20 years experience" and he winds up being a completely useless tool who can't work on a team and looks like this:

Yup, this is the root cause.

 

[sourceninja]

I don't get why they think someone with 10 years of experience in those fields would take 47k. You could consult for probably 4x that if you actually know what you're doing (which you damn well better after 10 years).

In fact, I don't think anyone with any level of experience with virtualization and netapp and their certs would work for 47k. I was paid more for level 1 help desk.

So do those jobs eventually pay more, attract the worst of the worst, or never get filled?

I had the same conclusion. I worked for peanuts then realized how underpaid I was. Switched to consulting and doubled my salary. I'm back in the private sector now, but I now know my worth and negotiated a rate that is industry standard for my certifications, experience, and expertise.

Recently my old employer offered me a chance to come back. He was offering almost half of what I make. I didn't even bother to counter offer, I just told him we were too far apart in our requirements and if his budget ever changed to give me a call.

 

[rsbennett00]

Wow, I sure don't envy you IT folks. I had no idea how rough you have it.

 

[poofyhairguy]

So my point is please invest time in networking so when you are applying for something, you can leverage being referred by someone or know people who can alert you to positions. Join trade groups, local civic groups, volunteer at the food bank, whatever. Those things are run by people with connections and it's not hard to volunteer for something where you find yourself working with someone on the Board of Directors. Impress that person after a little time, and you have a great new personal reference.

I have made my career on who-you-know, but honestly this system is ruining the meritocracy that is the American job market.

 

[Ns1]

Lol, I apply even if I don't meet all the "requirements." No cover letters either. Pretty standard as far as I'm aware. I don't think I know anyone that has applied having met all the "requirements" (i.e. HR fluff).

...and OP here's one of your 13.

 

[waggy]

I know nobody that pay's attention to IT requirements. As people have shown they have gotten nuts.

A few years ago a local place was hiring a "computer operator". this is a really easy basic entry level (hell you only need to be able to read and remember to show up). most of the time its just moving tapes around or making sure the batch programs start/finish.

they wanted 3 years experience. knowledge of a bunch of os's and A 4 YEAR IT DEGREE! for a fucking $10-14 an hour job. fuck that.

 

[kranky]

This isn't the actual example, but illustrates the point almost exactly.

Let's say the job is Construction Estimator. The requirements are:

- 1 year experience with HeavyBid construction estimating software
- Bachelor's degree preferred

That's it. One year experience with a niche software package, and you don't even have to have a college degree. Someone who's used that specific software package for a year is a pretty good bet to be qualified.

The job dimensions are:
- Prepares bid estimates from information provided by Senior Estimators, using HeavyBid software
- Ensures all subcontractor estimates are properly recorded
- Incorporate payment milestones and provide cash flow analysis
- Provide staffing profiles to Senior Estimators
- Assesses estimates for inconsistency
- Good interpersonal skills
- Ability to use Microsoft Word, Excel and Outlook

Again, 1 year experience with a specialized software tool is the key requirement. If someone applies and has experience with a different construction estimating tool, I would consider them based on how well they can talk about how the tool gets the job done (not what icons to click) - do they understand what the tool is doing and what the output means?

An example of the nonqualified applications I got - I have an app from a person who has a marketing degree and their two years of job experience is as a warehouse manager. No cover letter. There is no magic that enables them to do construction estimating with zero knowledge or experience in the industry or experience with the specialized software. A cover letter would at least give them an opportunity to make their case. Without one, I don't even know what they were thinking.

 

[Ns1]

n/m

 

[smackababy]

They were thinking, it isn't that hard to give estimates at the entry level when provided the information by "Senior Estimators" and put it into a program. Any reasonably intelligent person can figure out how to enter the shit into a program that calculates it. They can't be expected to be able to estimate without knowing factors within your company, so that is going to require training, regardless of experience.

You also give stupid dimensions like "provide <something my company does> to <person above you>" without giving any actual indication of what that entails or how it is standardized. "Ensures all estimates are properly recorded" And, that requires absolutely zero experience in anything except "monkey see, monkey do".

 

[JEDIYoda]

I'm involved with filling a job opening. People must apply online where people upload a resume and a cover letter. The job dimensions and qualifications are clearly stated on various job sites.

There are 18 applicants so far, of which exactly 2 have the required qualifications.

Three others do not fully meet the qualifications but provided compelling cover letters that directly addressed the position requirements along with a resume that could sway me to at least interview them to see how they would convince me they could do the job if they had some OJT. That's worked out for me before.

The other 13 had no business applying. They don't have the qualifications, their background is not relevant, and provided no explanation to support why they think they would be a good fit. Some of those didn't even provide a cover letter.

This is why companies use automated systems to screen applicants - too many people applying for jobs they aren't qualified for and they don't even take the time to offer an justification. If an applicant was referred by a respected employee, that is huge and can overcome a lot of apparent shortcomings. If Bob tells me the person he referred to me would be able to learn the job very quickly, and would be 100% committed to getting up to speed, and I know Bob is trustworthy, I'm going to seriously consider that person even if I might not have otherwise.

So my point is please invest time in networking so when you are applying for something, you can leverage being referred by someone or know people who can alert you to positions. Join trade groups, local civic groups, volunteer at the food bank, whatever. Those things are run by people with connections and it's not hard to volunteer for something where you find yourself working with someone on the Board of Directors. Impress that person after a little time, and you have a great new personal reference.

super excellent post!!

 

[kranky]

They were thinking, it isn't that hard to give estimates at the entry level when provided the information by "Senior Estimators" and put it into a program. Any reasonably intelligent person can figure out how to enter the shit into a program that calculates it. They can't be expected to be able to estimate without knowing factors within your company, so that is going to require training, regardless of experience.

You also give stupid dimensions like "provide <something my company does> to <person above you>" without giving any actual indication of what that entails or how it is standardized. "Ensures all estimates are properly recorded" And, that requires absolutely zero experience in anything except "monkey see, monkey do".

The point of the job dimensions are to provide a general idea of what the job is about. It's OK that it doesn't explain how something is done. It is meant to show applicants that (for example), they aren't going to do the entire estimate by themselves.

I will point out that the kind of software is not a calculator, so it's not as simple as typing in numbers. Nobody could use the tool properly without training or experience.

 

[SunnyD]

super excellent post!!

Except where it's not: everywhere.

kranky might be the exception to the rule, but see my post above. HR departments and recruiters don't filter jack shit. They just throw shit up against the wall and see what sticks more often than not.

 

[Ns1]

It was a good try to spread knowledge Kranky, but your efforts are lost here.

 

[reallyscrued]

Opposite issue.

I'm 2 years out of graduating from college. It clearly states on my resume on DiCE for how long I've been professinally working and what year I graduated.

I frequently get inquiries to fill open positions, first requirement:

8+ years programming in J2EE.

I respond to each telling them to never contact me again.

Although in 8 years I may eat my words 😀