Vatican says war would defy God's will

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Then why doesn't the Pope go to Iraq as human shield?

For that matter, would the Catholic's here be against a war all of a sudden if he did?

 

[BooGiMaN]

Ummm and what exactly do you expect the leader of the catholic chuch to say considering that one of the 10 commandments is 'thou shalt not kill'

geez leave the guy alone.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: BooGiMaN
Ummm and what exactly do you expect the leader of the catholic chuch to say considering that one of the 10 commandments is 'thou shalt not kill'

geez leave the guy alone.

And Saddam torturing, killing and raping his own population rocks? Thought the days of the Inquisition and the WW II camps were over, guess the Catholic church still has more up its sleeve than just the choirboys.

 

[LordUnum]

To put it lightly: I take anything the Pope and/or Vatican (bishops, etc.) says with a grain of salt. Not to say he's entirely wrong or right in this or other cases, but that's just how I approach this topic.

This is coming from a Roman Catholic who listens to his own common sense first before anything else. I have a feeling some of you take this guy more seriously than I do---or maybe should. 😱

 

[TonyG]

If we did not have religion, think of how few wars there would have been in the past, or there will be in the future. Most all wars seem to have a common factor of religion involved in one way or another, even if it is not the sole factor for the war.

 

[clamum]

pffft
never have or will listen to any religious leader

 

[Woodchuck2000]

But that almost sounds like the Catholic church is meddling in worldly politics!
It'd never do that!

 

[wnied]

Wait a minute! You mean slaughtering the muslim infidels ISNT a good thing this time???

These holy types need to sit down and agree on which wars are and arent in The Lords interest.

~wnied~

 

[tcsenter]

Well, the Papal Pedophile Protector has spoken!

That's it, everyone pack up, we have to go home now.

 

[Spamela]

what the vatican is stating is that the imminent actions of the usa don't meet the requirements of a just war.

see #2309


The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

- there must be serious prospects of success;

- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.


and #2243


Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.

 

[Woodchuck2000]

and #2243
Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.

And back in the good old Inquisition days, when the Vatican was a political authority, it never violated people's fundamental rights?

 

[Queasy]

Where's the Vatican's articles concerning child molestation?

Let's be honest, the current Vatican does not have much moral ground to stand on when it comes to what is just and what is not.

 

[Stark]

Further proof that the Pope and the Catholic church are completely irrelevant in the modern world. They protect child molestors and defend Saddam. I respect a guy in the oval office who reads the bible every morning and joins in prayer meetings with his staff over a senile polish fruitcake who hasn't had sex in 60 years (if ever). Hitler was a good Catholic. France is a Catholic country. That about sums up their moral authority in the universe.

 

[Spamela]

Originally posted by: Queasy
Where's the Vatican's articles concerning child molestation?

Let's be honest, the current Vatican does not have much moral ground to stand on when it comes to what is just and what is not.

there are plenty of articles & links, here, for example.

no argument presented in this thread thus far invalidates what the church has to say about a just war or other moral matters.

And back in the good old Inquisition days, when the Vatican was a political authority, it never violated people's fundamental rights?

the usa did some nasty things to native americans, slaves, and others, but that is irrelevant to the question at hand.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Stark
Further proof that the Pope and the Catholic church are completely irrelevant in the modern world. They protect child molestors and defend Saddam. I respect a guy in the oval office who reads the bible every morning and joins in prayer meetings with his staff over a senile polish fruitcake who hasn't had sex in 60 years (if ever). Hitler was a good Catholic. France is a Catholic country. That about sums up their moral authority in the universe.

what does having sex in 60 years if ever matter?

 

[Spamela]

Originally posted by: Stark
Further proof that the Pope and the Catholic church are completely irrelevant in the modern world. They protect child molestors and defend Saddam. I respect a guy in the oval office who reads the bible every morning and joins in prayer meetings with his staff over a senile polish fruitcake who hasn't had sex in 60 years (if ever). Hitler was a good Catholic. France is a Catholic country. That about sums up their moral authority in the universe.

such hatred is saddening.

 

[gopunk]

well, that's their opinion... certainly entitled to have their own opinion...

 

[Warthog912]

and?

Later

 

[LordUnum]

Originally posted by: Stark
Further proof that the Pope and the Catholic church are completely irrelevant in the modern world. They protect child molestors and defend Saddam. I respect a guy in the oval office who reads the bible every morning and joins in prayer meetings with his staff over a senile polish fruitcake who hasn't had sex in 60 years (if ever). Hitler was a good Catholic. France is a Catholic country. That about sums up their moral authority in the universe.

Hitler was a good, moral, life-long, practicing Catholic?

I don't think so.

I won't touch the rest as I have some classes to attend to. You're good at oversimplifying and making ridiculous generalizations, I'll give you that.

 

[Stark]

Ok, ok, maybe the Hitler of the Nazi party was not a practicing Catholic, but he indeed was a Catholic in his youth:

Hitler (born 1889) was confirmed a Roman Catholic at his mother's wish on Whit Sunday 1904 at the Cathedral at Linz, one year following the death of his father. [Bullock, Alan, Hitler, A Study in Tyranny. Harper & Row, 1962, p. 26] According to Heiden [Der Fuehrer .p 632] Hitler still went to confession and communion in 1918.

Still, the vatican's record during Hitler's rise was nothing to brag about:

That indictment is made explicit in the title Cornwell has given his book: Hitler's Pope. His criticism, rooted in a painstaking examination of Pacelli's record as the Vatican's point man in dealing with the rise of Hitler in the 1930s and of his maneuvering as Pius XII during the war years, is a devastating refutation of the claim that this Pope's diplomacy can in any way be characterized as wisdom. Instead of a portrait of a man worthy of sainthood, Cornwell lays out the story of a narcissistic, power-hungry manipulator who was prepared to lie, to appease, and to collaborate in order to accomplish his ecclesiastical purpose -- which was not to save lives or even to protect the Catholic Church but, more narrowly, to protect and advance the power of the papacy. Pacelli's personal history, his character, and his obsession with Vatican prerogatives combined at the crucial hour to make him "the ideal Pope for Hitler's unspeakable plan," Cornwell writes. "He was Hitler's pawn. He was Hitler's Pope."

link

Still, the pope's words clearly support an evil regime. Saying that Saddam is the result of Gods Will is the dumbest thing I've ever heard this pope say. And I used to like this pope, back before he started turning blind eyes to child predators and supporting a world leader the devil himself would be proud of.

 

[Spamela]

Still, the pope's words clearly support an evil regime. Saying that Saddam is the result of Gods Will is the dumbest thing I've ever heard this pope say. And I used to like this pope, back before he started turning blind eyes to child predators and supporting a world leader the devil himself would be proud of.

huh? the pope supports peace. he doesn't believe the requirements for a just war have been met.
this doesn't mean that they wouldn't have been met, eventually.
not supporting everything Bush does/says is far different from supporting Saddam.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

God's will is also apparently being done every time a Catholic priest rapes and/or molests a child and somehow manages to keep his job.
How quaint. The child rapists don't want war.

 

[0roo0roo]

funny, maybe they should complain about russias war in chechnia or something😛 considering the churchs track record, i'll take their idea of gods will with a monstrous grain of salt.

 

[xirtam]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge
God's will is also apparently being done every time a Catholic priest rapes and/or molests a child and somehow manages to keep his job.
How quaint. The child rapists don't want war.

If you can show me one case where the Pope condones child rape/molest as an act of God's will, I'll be surprised.

Until then, your post is moot to me. Other than now I know you don't view Catholicism as valid. Btw, I'm not catholic, but I think that was an unfair thing to say. It's like saying that the United States doesn't see anything wrong with perjury since Clinton got away with it and was allowed to keep his job.