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Valve - Vivendi == Profit?
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Schadenfroh
Elite Member
and there was much rejoycing
ArmchairAthlete
Diamond Member
Could be nice to sidestep the publisher and get games cheaper/easier on Steam (in theory at least). More freedom for the developers too.
imported_brad
Member
thats fine. after they way they dropped the Tribes community on its head, they deserve whatever they get.
IG had a patch in dev for Tribes:Vengeance and all of the sudden one day, VUG canceled the patch...unbeknownst to the gaming community or dev team before then.
VUG is the typical cut-throat money hog corporate juggernaught that thinks they can do anything...and probably will before people get wise to them.
All the big guys are like that. EA...well, I don't even need to explain them, but Vivendi has shown it's true colors with the patch cancellation and the fiasco a while back in the Homeworld forums...if you want evidence of Ubisoft's money grabbing, just look at how they ruined the Prince of Persia series with Warrior Within.
Electronic entertainment is a business, so understand the dollar will rule. Only a select few developers (Valve, Id, Epic, Blizzard, BioWare, etc.) are financially independent enough to tell the publisher to go fistf*ck themselves if they want to put out a game before it's ready.
No, YOU don't get it.
If Steam went down, that would really suck. Unless you like EA and you like developers not being able to exist without publishers.Steam, despite its issues, is a good thing.
I bought HL2 from Steam, cost a bit more than it would have from a shop, but it arrived on time (obviously), and I was able to play it as soon as it was released (ie: as soon as they let you unlock it).
Also, with online services, it could be better
a) you can download it if it's already out without having to order online and wait (and leave it overnight to download), assuming there are no games shops nearby, or it's a lot more expensive at shops, or it's midnight and you get an urge for a game etc.
b) you could theoretically download a game a very short while after ot goes gold, rather than waiting for it to get to retail channels.
c) it COULD be cheaper, as costs like packaging and delivery don't need to be paid, and retailer markup is less of an issue.
This is assuming the model gets developed. Stopping the model before it manages to get established and picked up (as a model, not the Steam platform) is a bad thing.
Valve winning = gamers winning.
Malak
Lifer
I was talking to someone at Gamestop yesterday, and they experienced a very good reason why steam sucks. They had no internet for about 6 weeks, so they couldn't play their game they bought and registered.
Other good reasons why steam sucks is that it's required even if you don't want patches, which seems to be the only thing it is for. It takes up memory to do nothing, slows loading times down in-game for no apparent reason. It's bloat, plain and simple. It is completely worthless and unnecessary. Vivendi knew this, they told Valve to get rid of it, Valve said no.
Offline Mode?
Uh, Offline Mode?
I mean, I'm not a fan of a 24/7 connectivity either, but I think Steam's appeal lies in it's ability to portal software. I like the idea of being able to download a game if it's less expensive that way. I also like knowing there's always a place to go to get the latest patch with a good download speed, instead of searching the net and sifting through dead/slow servers trying to get it.
I like the idea of Steam as a delivery service. I think the problems with it reside in the fact that Valve is trying to make it a delivery service, an auto-update tool, and an anti-piracy tool all wrapped in one package. This does result, as you pointed out, in some of us getting things we don't want. I think if they just cut it back to a software purchasing/patch grabbing gateway that wasn't required to be on when the game was played, it would be a rather nice little service.
On the subject of piracy, while steam is definitely the most effective prevention method to date, it is also the most annoying. I think those two items probably go hand in hand, and I think the problem will get worse before it gets better.
blurredvision
Lifer
I could care less if Vivendi and Valve were in the sack together or not, I'm still being forced to pay $50 for the game. If there's no price decrease by cutting out the middle man, then I could care less who I get my game from.
Malak
Lifer
Well some things to consider, Insomniak:
1. Lots of games allow the download of the game from the website. You don't need to install any apps to do this. It is nothing new, and it's much easier the traditional way.
2. Steam offers no anti-piracy methods. It was cracked day 1, and it offers a workaround right on their website so that multiple people can play with the same cdkey.
3. I have never had any issues with finding a place to get a patch. Hell, the official websites of games that have been out for almost 10 years are still up, with patches. I don't know what games you are having issues with, but I can tell you Steam won't help you with that.
Any features Steam might offer can already be found in more efficient, less hostile apps. The concept of steam is just plain stupid. Requiring someone to have an internet connection to play a single-player game, when that internet connection isn't even used during play, is just plain stupid. There is no excuse for this horrid piece of software.
1. Lots of games allow the download of the game from the website. You don't need to install any apps to do this. It is nothing new, and it's much easier the traditional way.
2. Steam offers no anti-piracy methods. It was cracked day 1, and it offers a workaround right on their website so that multiple people can play with the same cdkey.
3. I have never had any issues with finding a place to get a patch. Hell, the official websites of games that have been out for almost 10 years are still up, with patches. I don't know what games you are having issues with, but I can tell you Steam won't help you with that.
Any features Steam might offer can already be found in more efficient, less hostile apps. The concept of steam is just plain stupid. Requiring someone to have an internet connection to play a single-player game, when that internet connection isn't even used during play, is just plain stupid. There is no excuse for this horrid piece of software.
Malak
Lifer
I've made countless points that show each feature it attempts to have are worthless and unnecessary, and made further points of how amazingly shortsighted and annoying it is to the average consumer. Given the sheer amount of people who refused to purchase the game based on the introduction of Steam, plus the countless people(like myself) who did buy it and were aggravated, I would think that my perspective is the one you really should start to look at. It is shared by many, many more than those that share yours.
It's like looking at a stone wheel and saying, "Wow, what an amazing idea" when we already have rubber tires.
I've read a lot of your points and disagree with everything I can remember. I'll quote and refute your ealier posts 😛:
The term "lots" doesn't really apply to this situation. While there are services like Direct2Drive, they are the exception rather than the rule. Heck, my friend wanted to start playing Guild Wars with us last night (an online-only RPG) but couldn't because he needed to drive to the store to buy a key. How is that much easier? Anything (like Steam) that encourages this new method of distribution is good. Plain and simple.
Um, excuse me? No anti-piracy methods?
Cracked at day one you say? Is there anything that ISN'T? The simple fact remains that there is no foolproof copy protection for single player games. They are ALL merely deterrents. That said, Steam can and does prevent online-multiplayer piracy. There ARE ways of secure and guaranteed authentication.
For the most part, I've been able to find patches without a problem, too. The main issues for the average user, however, are ease-of-use and time. Trying to explain to a novice user how to download a patch (and WHICH patch is the right one) is frustrating for both the user and the explainer. To have your game update itself when you run it is VERY convenient. Stack that with the fact that they can release small, incremental patches and you've got something that both QUICK and EASY for the average user.
I remember when ginormous Counter-Strike and Half-Life patches would come out and I'd spend an inordinate amount of time downloading them. Being able to release small fixes as they happen is SO. GOOD. that again, I can't fathom your perspective.
Hostile? Care to explain? The only problem I've EVER had with Steam was unlocking Half-Life 2 (when everybody and their mother was trying to do the same thing at the same time). Still, it unlocked and I played it for multiple hours WITHOUT having to ask for a ride to the store (some of us don't own vehicles).
*sigh* The game requirements state: an internet connection. If you don't like it, don't buy it. That doesn't make the model invalid. Most people have an internet connection. If you don't and you want to do ANYTHING with a computer besides word processing, you SHOULD have an internet connection. Heck, borrow one from a friend for fifteen minutes (not easy for Joe McAverage, but definitely do-able).
And when you're playing, you are NOT required to have an internet connection. Offline mode. Offline mode. Offline mode. I've NEVER had a problem with it. If you have, I'm sorry; it must be a bug. Valve does need to tighten up their QC. That said, the concept is still incredibly good and worthy of support. The foundation must be built sometime.
Malak
Lifer
There are many games that have download links on their website for downloading the full game. I believe there is even a company or two that sells strictly CD keys, something maybe your friend should have spent a couple minutes on google looking for maybe? Steam doesn't solve this by the way. You do not need a secondary app to do any of this, and it's all already been done. That's my entire point.
If this were true, they wouldn't ever had needed to ban anyone's accounts. But they ban about as many accounts as Blizzard does on battle.net 😛
Let's look at a better service, Punkbuster. Built into the game, requires no secondary app. Keeps track of cd-keys so key generators does not work. Mess with PB and you get hardware banned across every PB-enabled game made, big big big risk. Simply try duplicating a key, you get kicked from a PB-enabled server. Oh yeah, and it stops cheaters. With it's built-in anti-cheat methods AND admin tools, cheaters are stopped fast. To top it off, it has a very large community of admins(I was a member myself) that keeps track of every last one of the cheaters so that they are banned not on one server, but all. Once again, a solution already present that is less intrusive and requires nothing from the user.
Good points and quite true. However, I should point out once again that Steam isn't the first to do this. Think about your AV program. If you haven't updated it's definitions in a while, it'll ask you if you want to update it. Any game can do this too, if it's built into it. Some games do. Many games at the very least have an update button available and will update the game for you. Many games check and download patches automatically everytime you play. Hell, Guildwars has a unique and advanced system which patches while you play. And none of them require a secondary application to do it either.
Yes I remember that, and you really must admit that this was tedious and unnecessary. But no, that's not even the worst part. And no, I'm not talking about requiring an internet connection for a single player game, although that is a big frustration on countless customers I have spoken with. No no, it's even worse. Imagine having it all. It's installed, decrypted, unlocked, and you have an account with steam. You go to run the game and what happens? Nope, the game doesn't run, but you are presented with an error message. It says, "Steam is to busy to help you, try again in 5 minutes." I don't believe I asked steam to help me, I just clicked the shortcut to play my game. THAT is hostile. It literally prevented me from playing my game simply because the steam servers were busy. I'm sorry, but that is not acceptable. No developer, no customer, no spectator should ever believe it is, and if you do... well I can't really help you with your delusions of tolerance.
You are plain wrong. I can't believe you could even type that. To say that people who do not have any use of the internet are not suitable to be a customer to game studios is flat out the dumbest thing yet in this thread.
Have some foresight, something Valve obviously doesn't have. What if the internet goes down? What if the power to their steam servers goes down? What if there just is no internet where they are? What if it's NOT POSSIBLE? There are so many times when people are without internet, but can still play games. Know what game they don't play? Anything made by Valve. They shot themselves in the foot, plain and simple. This is the first and last game I will buy from them. If I had known this was what was in store for me, I never would have made the purchase.
bunnyfubbles
Lifer
I completely agree with Malak, part of the reason I haven't bought HL2 is because of the BS that is steam.
However being a big Tribes fan my hatred for VUG is even greater, both companies are flawed.
However being a big Tribes fan my hatred for VUG is even greater, both companies are flawed.
"Steam doesn't solve this by the way." What are you talking about? That's EXACTLY what Steam solves. Buy the game. Download it. Play it. All through Steam. Done.
You believe there's a company that sells CD keys? How about you link to it. There may very well be one, but I've never heard of it. It could be very useful (although buying just keys from a third party seems a bit shady to me).
The very fact that they ban people means that they detect them. This ALSO means that there's an authentication mechanism in place.
Discussing PB's anti-piracy mechanisms is fruitless. ALL single player piracy prevention is merely deterrence; nothing more. If you have access to the 1s and 0s and the ingenuity to decipher their meaning, you can make them do whatever you want. You can circumvent ANY single player system. The ONLY games with guaranteed anti-piracy are online-only games. Because the authentication is done at the server (which the game developers own and control), you can't simply "fool it." Either you give it a valid key or you don't. If you don't, you aren't authenticated.
If you want to talk about cheat prevention, that's a different issue. Hopefully VAC2 will be released soon. And hopefully it won't suck. But there's nothing wrong with implementing their own anti-cheating mechanisms. Having your own system gives you much more control and flexibility than using somebody else's.
Ok, so Steam isn't the first. I don't care. I still like that Steam does it. Is the secondary application convenient? No, but it's necessary for piracty prevention. Which would lead us in a circle, so I'm not going back to that.
Guild War's content delivery system is awesome; there's no arguing that. But it's streaming game content, not engine updates. I was in a beta weekend and had to restart the game client so that I could patch to a newer version. I'm sure the same thing will happen with the retail version as they discover and fix bugs.
Unnecessary? Unlocking was certainly tedious and unpleasant, but hardly unnecessary. I had the game sitting on my hard drive; it needed to be unlocked. It's the hazard of a pre-release content delivery system.
I agree that the difficulties we and others experienced were unacceptable (although describing the program as hostile is not exactly accurate). Valve did not allocate enough resources to release night and they probably lost a few customers (like you) to it. Unfortunately, that's the hazard of a foundational utility. Steam is the future, plain and simple. Once it's perfected, you'll probably actually like it. In the meantime, I'm willing to put up with the (in my experience) relatively minor quirks so that I can experience the benefits of simplicity and integration.
??? "Not suitable"? What are you talking about? Users have a choice: If you want to play Half-Life 2, you have to have an internet connection. There's no issue of suitability. If you don't like it, DON'T BUY IT. Does it suck for people without internet access? Absolutely. Do I feel bad for them? No, not at all. It's not like AOL isn't shoving 1045 FREE HOURS into our faces every chance it gets. I'm sure they'd love to give you five minutes of internet access so you can activate your game. Then there's OFFLINE MODE. An issue which you seem to completely ignore.
LOL "What if the internet goes down?" Too funny. First, not likely to happen. Second, offline mode?
Power? I'm pretty sure there are many Steam servers distributed throughout the world. If most of them lose power, there's a larger problem than not being able to play video games. And... offline mode?
No internet? Shot themselves in the foot? How many people do you think this actually affects? The percentage of gamers who play games and have no internet access is effectively 0. I seriously doubt their sales figures are significantly impacted by the loss of the stubborn troglodyte market.
Frodolives
Platinum Member
Steam may have issues, but I'm all for developers having distribution choices other than these money grubbing suits when it comes to publishing games. Count me as another long time Tribes veteran that hopes Vivendi falls on it's bottom line.
By the way, for those that don't know, Irrational Games are the developers referred to that supposedly didn't know what VU had in mind for dropping support/patch for Tribes. I'm glad to see that they were able to put up their own capital for their release of the latest "Freedom Force" title, "Freedom Force Versus the Third Reich."
Warren Spector is another savvy developer (ie: System Shock 2, Deus Ex) who is seeking ways to put control of game development back into the hands of developers, apparently via the new http://www.junctionpointstudios.com/
By the way, for those that don't know, Irrational Games are the developers referred to that supposedly didn't know what VU had in mind for dropping support/patch for Tribes. I'm glad to see that they were able to put up their own capital for their release of the latest "Freedom Force" title, "Freedom Force Versus the Third Reich."
Warren Spector is another savvy developer (ie: System Shock 2, Deus Ex) who is seeking ways to put control of game development back into the hands of developers, apparently via the new http://www.junctionpointstudios.com/
Malak
Lifer
You prove right there how little you know the market. Hell I know a very talented and respected warcraft3 mapmaker that doesn't even have internet! I have friends with no internet that play games all the time! It's not a stubborn market, having broadband just isn't as important to some people. Dialup can be impossible to use at times, so requiring an internet connection for a game that never uses it is just retarded. And you know what? It has affected plenty of people, but obviously in your little world they mean nothing.
Fact is, Steam does nothing that hasn't already been done before in better ways. It is nothing innovated, it is a step backwards. Considering your position is in fact the minority, I expect few developers will attempt this again. Especially since there are easier ways to do it all already.
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