Value of Thunderbolt 3

[PowerEngineer]

I'm beginning to draw up a parts list for a new Skylake build (last build 5+ years ago). I generally aim for a mid-to-high budget build that has plenty of flexibility and expandability. I'm not what you'd call a "gamer", but still want a rig that is capable of providing reasonable gaming performance if I decide to get into it later.

Having used Gigabyte motherboards in past builds (GA-890FXA-UD5 currently), I've been looking at both the 'GA-Z170X-UD5' and the 'GA-Z170X-UD5 TH'. The only real difference between the two is that the latter uses Intel's 'Alpine Ridge' and thereby supports Thunderbolt 3.

The difference in cost appears to be about $70. Is 'Alpine Ridge' worth it?

Thanks!

Edit: improve title

 

[Arachnotronic]

I wouldn't pay the extra, but I have no use for Thunderbolt.

 

[LTC8K6]

I think both have Alpine Ridge, with one including the thunderbolt connector?

Alpine Ridge is Intel's USB controller, too.

 

[LTC8K6]

http://www.legitreviews.com/gigabyte-100-series-boards-feature-intel-usb-3-1-controller_165142

 

[PowerEngineer]

I think both have Alpine Ridge, with one including the thunderbolt connector?

Alpine Ridge is Intel's USB controller, too.

Yes, I see that you are right.

From Tweaktown reviews:

Z170X-UD5

Intel is using the Intel "Alpine Ridge" Thunderbolt 3.0/USB 3.1 controller. While this chip supports Thunderbolt 3.0 as well as USB 3.1, it requires more hardware and two more PCI-E lanes than are being allocated here to support it. That is why GIGABYTE only is advertising USB 3.1 support and not Thunderbolt 3.0. Most boards with this controller are only using it for USB 3.1, but a few boards have a much more intricate and integrated solution which uses more resources and PCI-E lanes. While this isn't the Thunderbolt 3.0 implementation of this IC, there is still extra hardware required for proper Type-C connector implementation. GIGABYTE has added the proper Type-C switch from Texas Instruments, the HDS3212.

Z170X-UD5 TH

The main chip that provides the dual Type-C ports with Thunderbolt 3, USB 3.1, and DP 1.2 support is the Intel "Alpine Ridge" controller labeled DSL6540. To fully support USB power delivery 2.0 specifications, GIGABYTE uses two Texas Instruments TPS65982 USB PD 2.0 controllers (Intel's preferred controller).

Seems a bit odd to me that Gigabyte has designed the UD5 in a way that doesn't take full advantage of the 'Alpine Ridge' capabilities (even though Tweaktown suggests this is true for many motherboards with 'Alpine Ridge').

Learn something every day.

So, let me rephrase my question: Are the differences in capabilities between Z170X-UD5 and Z170X-UD5 TH (e.g. Thunderbolt 3 and HDMI 2.0) worth the $70 price difference?

Thanks (again)

 

[Insert_Nickname]

So, let me rephrase my question: Are the differences in capabilities between Z170X-UD5 and Z170X-UD5 TH (e.g. Thunderbolt 3 and HDMI 2.0) worth the $70 price difference?

Unfortunately that is something only you can decide.

A good starting point is always "do I actually use feature X?" and "will I use feature Y during the life expectancy of this system?". Don't pay extra for features you don't need nor use.

I will say that having onboard type-C 10Gbit USB 3.1 with full power delivery support might come in handy in the future. With the Alpine Ridge controller, there are also support for all alternate USB 3.1 modes. Which may turn out to be very useful. HDMI 2.0 is only needed if you're planning to run a 2.0 compliant HDMI monitor/TV off the IGP.

 

[squirrel dog]

whats 70 smackers to a power engineer , I ask ya ?

 

[PowerEngineer]

A good starting point is always "do I actually use feature X?" and "will I use feature Y during the life expectancy of this system?". Don't pay extra for features you don't need nor use.

A good point, although knowing what I use now is a lot easier than predicting what I might want to use later. As I rely on my builds for several years, I tend to buy more potentially usable features as "insurance". That said, I wonder if Thunderbolt 3 is just too speculative to justify.

whats 70 smackers to a power engineer , I ask ya ?

LOL I hope you're not laboring under the assumption that power engineering is a sure path to endless wealth. I am, however, open to the idea of spending the additional $70 if it makes sense.

 

[LTC8K6]

There will probably be a Thunderbolt 3 card you can buy down the road.

Thunderbolt 2 cards are showing up at Newegg and Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/ASRock-Thunde...1448312596&sr=1-3&keywords=thunderbolt+2+card

http://www.amazon.com/THUNDERBOLT2-...1448312596&sr=1-2&keywords=thunderbolt+2+card

http://www.amazon.com/HP-SMART-THUN...1448312596&sr=1-4&keywords=thunderbolt+2+card

 

[Insert_Nickname]

A good point, although knowing what I use now is a lot easier than predicting what I might want to use later. As I rely on my builds for several years, I tend to buy more potentially usable features as "insurance". That said, I wonder if Thunderbolt 3 is just too speculative to justify.

I know exactly how you feel. Predicting technology is extremely hard.

Thunderbolt on its own is hard to justify, even harder now 10Gbit USB is available. As I stated previously the killer application for Alpine Ridge are 10Gbit USB, and its alternate modes. One type-C port allows you to run HDMI 2.0, DisplayPort 1.2, MHL, Thunderbolt 1/2/3 and 10Gbit USB 3.1.

Personally, if this is a long term system, I'd splash the $70 for that and if pressed on budget perhaps chose a slightly lower spec CPU. (f.x. 6700 vs. 6700K)

There will probably be a Thunderbolt 3 card you can buy down the road.

Thunderbolt 2 cards are showing up at Newegg and Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/ASRock-Thunde...1448312596&sr=1-3&keywords=thunderbolt+2+card

http://www.amazon.com/THUNDERBOLT2-...1448312596&sr=1-2&keywords=thunderbolt+2+card

http://www.amazon.com/HP-SMART-THUN...1448312596&sr=1-4&keywords=thunderbolt+2+card

Unfortunately those cards require special mainboard support.

 

[zir_blazer]

I swear than the price difference between GA-Z170X-UD5 and GA-Z170X-UD5 TH was like 20 or 30 U$D, not a whole 70. I was looking for a Skylake Motherboard with TB3 recently just out of curiosity to see the current offer of it is and I recall than that Gigabyte model was the only one currently available with TB3.

Alpine Ridge by itself can serve as a premium USB 3.1 Controller. The bad thing is that there are not compelling enough TB3 devices to use its capabilities, the few you can find, either don't work on standard PC platform and/or are usually ridiculous overpriced.
Also, Linux and Windows TB hotplugging implementation is significantly worse than OS X, which is ironic since Apple ignores the standard (Intel says that the BIOS ACPI should do it, OS X implements hotplug in the OS itself).

TB is a sort of overengineering beast, and I like that. Shame that they can't put it to good use, or at least make it available at mainstream so you don't have to search for specific Motherboards, or pay a ridiculous premium, for something that currently has soo little use, with not a lot of hopes to pick up later.

 

[BarkingGhostar]

What are people outside of Apple using Thunderbolt for? Seems like an expensive option that somehow solves a solution people think isn't being provided by other means.

 

[zir_blazer]

What are people outside of Apple using Thunderbolt for? Seems like an expensive option that somehow solves a solution people think isn't being provided by other means.

That's the problem, ThunderBolt doesn't provide for anything worthy enough outside Apple. Plus Apple overpriced TB devices aren't very compatible with the standard PC platform to begin with, they are bound to limitations like that the TB device has to be plugged before system turns on, and there is no hotplug support.

If the price premium wasn't big, I would take Alpine Ridge all days of the week. Intel controllers are usually better performing that third party like ASMedia, so chances are than the USB 3.1 perform better, and has better Driver support, too.
On previous ThunderBolt versions there was no cable or device compatibility so support for it was effectively wasted, but Alpine Ridge has that small little thing in its favour of being able to work with USB 3.1 Type-C devices.


So far, the only thing that TB3 is capable of doing that you can't effectively do in any other way, is an external Video Card. But that would be more useful for Notebooks that Desktop.

 

[PowerEngineer]

This has already been a very helpful discussion. As there doesn't seem to be any Thunderbolt 3 devices in the marketplace currently and it will likely be hard for me to justify the price premium manufacturers will be asking when they do arrive, right now I'm leaning away from the Thunderbolt version of the UD5.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

This has already been a very helpful discussion. As there doesn't seem to be any Thunderbolt 3 devices in the marketplace currently and it will likely be hard for me to justify the price premium manufacturers will be asking when they do arrive, right now I'm leaning away from the Thunderbolt version of the UD5.

Happy to help.

One other factor is TB cables themselves tend to be quite pricey too.

 

[PowerEngineer]

Being that i-7 SkyLakes are currently unobtainable, I've had more time to go over the Gigabyte Z170 options. I found this on their website:

City of Industry, California, October 23, 2015,– GIGABYTE TECHNOLOGY Co. Ltd, a leading manufacturer of motherboards and graphics cards, is pleased to announce that its support for Intel® Thunderbolt™ 3 has expanded with the certification by Intel of the GIGABYTE GA-Z170X-Gaming G1, GA-Z170X-Gaming GT, and GA-Z170X-Gaming 7 motherboards.

Users that wish to upgrade their motherboard can download an updated version of the firmware from GIGABYTE’s website. Once the user installs the updated firmware, Thunderbolt™ 3 support will be enabled on the motherboard.

Powered by Intel’s own Thunderbolt™ 3 controller, the new Thunderbolt™ 3 protocol, which is available over a USB Type-C™ connector on the back I/O of select motherboards, brings an unprecedented single-wire bandwidth of up to 40 Gb/s -- twice more than the previous generation!

Thunderbolt™ 3 over USB Type-C™ supports DisplayPort 1.2, which is able to drive a 4K resolution display at 60 FPS, and revolutionary industry-first features such as power delivery up to 36W, as well as the ability to daisy-chain up to 6 devices per USB Type-C port.

http://www.gigabyte.us/press-center/news-page.aspx?nid=1399

I had been puzzling over the differences between the UD5 and the Gaming-7. I guess this tilts me a little toward the Gaming-7.

Thoughts?

 

[VirtualLarry]

I had been puzzling over the differences between the UD5 and the Gaming-7. I guess this tilts me a little toward the Gaming-7.

Thoughts?

That's a little disappointing, if that upgrade isn't available for the UD5.

 

[PowerEngineer]

That's a little disappointing, if that upgrade isn't available for the UD5.

Perhaps certification is in the works for other Gigabyte boards, and if so maybe the UD5 will be certified.

On the other hand, there's an explicit UD5 TH board with Thunderbird support (and some supporting enhancements?); maybe they'll think that's adequate. There was a $70 price difference that last time I looked. :\

 

[Hi-Fi Man]

At this point it's clear that thunderbolt is even more useless than firewire was. I wouldn't spend the extra when USB 3.0/3.1 and eSATA can do most if not all of what thunderbolt can (practically of course).

 

[Bearmann]

First you need to read the surperb reviews of both boards done by Steven Bassiri at Tweaktown. I asked him why he increased the quality rating from 90 to 96 from the UD5 to the UD5-TH since it appeared to me that the only difference was the Thunderbolt port. With his permission, I am quoting his response:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Quality also encompasses some other characteristics including the chips used and their implementation.


For instance the UD5 has the same Intel USB 3.1/ThunderBolt 3.0 controller as the UD5 TH, the UD5 TH has two extra PCI-E lanes attached and two much higher quality USB 3.1 Power Delivery 2.0 chips. So the implementation benefits UD5 TH points on the features scale, but the upgraded type-C support chips increase the quality scale. The two chips allow for 12v/3A and 5v/3A output to devices with the new spec, while the normal UD5 (and majority of other boards regardless of their controller) are limited to 5v/3A output.


The UD5 TH also has passed Intel's Thunderbolt 3.0 certification which adds to quality since Intel officially certified the port (and Intel's certification in this regard is actually not easy to obtain), and the PCB of the UD5 TH is different than that of the UD5 in terms of layers (6 vs 4) to increase quality of TB 3 signals so that they can pass certification.


Other than that, the quality of SATA connections is also better, as the UD5 has four SATA ports sharing bandwidth with two M.2 slots, the UD5 TH only has 1 SATA port which might share bandwidth with the M.2 slot for SATA based drives, only if a SATA M.2 drive is installed. While the switches add more function, they also can slightly reduce the quality of the connection, so the UD5 TH doesn't have these and so the quality grade goes up since more SATA is directly from Intel. The UD5 TH also supports HDMI 2.0 through a new HDMI 2.0 chip that the UD5 doesn't have, but that doesn't add to the quality score much.


The differences between the two boards is hard to spot, it's all on and in the PCB, that is why I like to dig a bit deeper.

[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Steven Bassiri
CPU, Motherboard, and Overclocking Editor
Tweak Town Pty Ltd
[/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT][/FONT]

 

[PowerEngineer]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The differences between the two boards is hard to spot, it's all on and in the PCB, that is why I like to dig a bit deeper.[/FONT][/FONT]

Thank you for digging deeper! I did gather that the U5 TH had a more robust implementation of Thunderbird, but had not really appreciated the other quality differences.

The remaining unanswered question (at least in my mind) is the value of Thunderbird 3 capabilities as a "future proofing" investment on a build I expect to last 5+ years.

Thanks again for your input! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[Ketchup]

Great thread. My 2 cents:

To me, future proofing is more meaningless than it has ever been. Here are just a few examples:

- On my GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3 (and the board in my sig), the eSATA ports sit there unused, the same as they did when I bought the boards. The only reason I have them is because they came with the boards that had other features I wanted at the time.

- Both boards have PCI-E slots. They have never been used, and they only reason they both have them is because you can't buy a board without them.

- I still have my Geforce GTX 660. I still play games, and it does just as well as it did when I bought it three years ago.

- We bought a $400 Lenovo about six years ago, just after Windows 7 came out. It still does everything we need, and when I wanted to make it snappier I just added an SSD.

If you don't think the technology will benefit you now, save your money for something that will.

 

[Spicedaddy]

I'd lean towards the UD5 TH, last time I checked it was a 30$ difference with the regular UD5.

The UD5 TH will probably be my next board, I want to run dual 4K monitors off the onboard video for an almost silent build.

 

[PingSpike]

What are people outside of Apple using Thunderbolt for? Seems like an expensive option that somehow solves a solution people think isn't being provided by other means.

The only purpose I can think of for it is attaching a notebook PC to an external video card or other high bandwidth device, most likely through the aid of an external PCI-e to thunderbolt enclosure (which cost like $200+ on their own). On a desktop PC? It seems pointless since you have access to the cheaper PCI-e bus directly.

As another poster pointed out, Intel hoped to improve adoption of the standard by releasing a thunderbolt PCI-e adapter. My opinion is anyone who has a PCI-e slot available has no reason to use thunderbolt in the first place. They've already got a cheaper more dependable expansion bus.

I'd pay exactly nothing extra for thunderbolt on a desktop. Even if I'm wrong and it becomes the new standard that devices are only released for, you can always buy that PCI-e card I just called pointless.

If Intel wanted to make Thunderbolt take off, they'd put it on all their chipsets including trash grade ones. If device makers could count on every Intel based portable solution having potential access to thunderbolt they'd make lots of devices for it. But as it stands, its only available on high end stuff. So it'll probably be like expresscard, used for some niche cases on notebooks but any device that can be pushed over USB3 will be.