Using MAD as indirect proof of a higher power

[PlanetJosh]

Maybe it's ok to have this in P&N instead of the Discussion Club because of all the political arguments associated with MAD some of which are outlined below.

Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) apparently has worked so far to prevent nuclear war. Nuclear powers don't use nukes to win wars because they fear nuclear retaliation from an enemy nation with nukes. But I find it very difficult to believe it has worked because of human reason alone. I'm agnostic but it looks like God may have intervened in close calls to hold off nuclear Armageddon until a later time. Which may be an indirect indication or proof that there is a God. I lean towards hoping this is not true at all and that humans alone and luck are responsible for no nuclear wars after Japan as one sided as it was.

I also find it hard to believe the Russians backed off in the Cuban Missile Crisis from their own reasoning. As if the Russians were satified to have the U.S. remove its secret nuclear missiles from Italy as part of the compromise deal? And a promise from America than it wouldn't invade Cuba? Not so sure about that causing Russia to remove the nukes. God may have fiddled with the Russians' thinking and caused them to take the deal and back down. Although some people will say it was Russia merely accepting concessions from the U.S., it looked like a back down.

And Nixon and his advisors not using nukes to win the Vietnam War in the 60s? I can't believe he feared Russian nuclear retaliation to that extent. Another case where God may have intervened to stop the U.S. from launching nukes in a war after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It's not regarded as a close call in history but we don't know for sure how close the U.S. came to nuking Hanoi.

 

[Jaepheth]

Or from a many-worlds perspective; the only realities in which you exist are the one where MAD worked to avert nuclear war.


You're using what you perceive to be unlikely events as anecdotal evidence for an unknowable, unquantifiable entity. That's not indicative of critical thinking.

What's more likely:
1. Magical invisible sky pixy manipulated reality.
2. You miscalculated the insanely complex probabilities involved in human free will and global political decisions involving multiple persons, personalities, cultures, and motives.


Hell, I'd be more inclined to believe there's a secret global cabal pulling the strin
EVERYTHING IS FINE. GO BACK TO SLEEP. CONSUME.

 

[feralkid]

I can't fathom how God could have allowed this crappy taxidermy to exist.




Oh, forgot to ask...are you Anarchist?



.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

God is sovereign.

 

[Victorian Gray]

God is sovereign.

nope

 

[JumBie]

Nukes are gods, Wasteland 2? Anybody?

 

[Paul98]

No

 

[Jeff7]

Saying "god did it" can be more comforting than "humans are really damn violent primates with absurdly powerful tools of destruction, and dumb luck has saved our asses more times than we'd like to think about."


Though this same god is often said to be the one who'll bring about the end of the world.

Maybe "comforting" isn't quite entirely appropriate.

"It's not time for everyone to die! Not yet, anyway. I'm also not going tell you when that will happen, or if it will happen."

 

[sandorski]

No. You may as well argue that things in your freezer are frozen because God makes them that way.

 

[yllus]

Proof is usually required to be observable and repeatable.

 

[Jaskalas]

But I find it very difficult to believe it has worked because of human reason alone.

The Cold War came down to two super powers in a pissing match.
To be nations of such strength, both sides had to be pretty big on logical deductive reasoning.

Yes... we came close to MAD more than once, but deep down neither side wanted the world to end.

Nuclear proliferation keeps lowering the threshold for who can push this button. The risk of MAD is only increasing over time as more unstable actors gain nukes. We haven't survived it yet...

 

[drebo]

Didn't you watch the documentary? It was the X-Men who averted the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Duh!

 

[waggy]

I like mad magazine. "what me worry?" lol it cracks me up

 

[Matt1970]

.....I'm agnostic but it looks like God may have intervened in close calls to hold off nuclear Armageddon until a later time. Which may be an indirect indication or proof that there is a God.

If god were to intervene in a nuclear incident, wouldn't it make more sense for him to just eliminate all nukes or change the laws of physics so nukes can't even exist? I believe there is a higher power but I don't believe he is up there picking winners and losers.

 

[Moonbeam]

Where God came into this is hidden hand in serendipity, the fact that the first letters in mutually assured destruction spell what it amounts to. It is always nice to have some sort of reminder of the real nature of average state of human conscious development and where the CBD has brought us.

 

[Matt1970]

Where God came into this is hidden hand in serendipity, the fact that the first letters in mutually assured destruction spell what it amounts to. It is always nice to have some sort of reminder of the real nature of average state of human conscious development and where the CBD has brought us.

See, if god were to pick winners and losers, you think he would have picked that sperm to win?

 

[Moonbeam]

See, if god were to pick winners and losers, you think he would have picked that sperm to win?

There was a time when He did. Perhaps it was planned obsolescence.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

PlanetJosh indeed. How high did you have to get to land there? Your hypothesis is like a Keanu Whoa meme. If this is the extent to which the creator exercises its powers, then it is stark, raving, mad.

 

[1prophet]

Proof is usually required to be observable and repeatable.

Exactly, observable and repeatable proof will make believers out of all of you, but is that the kind of believers God would want?

9Then he sent to Elijah a captain with his company of fifty men. The captain went up to Elijah, who was sitting on the top of a hill, and said to him, "Man of God, the king says, 'Come down!'"


10Elijah answered the captain, "If I am a man of God, may fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men!" Then fire fell from heaven and consumed the captain and his men

11At this the king sent to Elijah another captain with his fifty men. The captain said to him, "Man of God, this is what the king says, 'Come down at once!'"

12"If I am a man of God," Elijah replied, "may fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men!" Then the fire of God fell from heaven and consumed him and his fifty men.

13So the king sent a third captain with his fifty men. This third captain went up and fell on his knees before Elijah. "Man of God," he begged, "please have respect for my life and the lives of these fifty men, your servants!

 

[Jeff7]

The Cold War came down to two super powers in a pissing match.
To be nations of such strength, both sides had to be pretty big on logical deductive reasoning.

Yes... we came close to MAD more than once, but deep down neither side wanted the world to end.

Nuclear proliferation keeps lowering the threshold for who can push this button. The risk of MAD is only increasing over time as more unstable actors gain nukes. We haven't survived it yet...

Where it gets dicey is when you've got the nutjobs who are absolutely certain that the world ending by divine force is simply inevitable, and that it will happen in their lifetime. Mix in that some of them believe that they can hear the voice of a god in their heads, and that it might be up to them to start the armageddon.
"I understand now! This is my life's true purpose."
Boom.


(It's a nifty psychological trick for dealing with death: "Sure, I'll die someday, but so will everyone else, and all at the same time. Phew!")

See, if god were to pick winners and losers, you think he would have picked that sperm to win?

Maybe he likes to be entertained in the meantime.

In a game, I will set up my base and defenses such that I will win. But I'll still play it through because it's entertaining.

 

[Darwin333]

Why does god protect us but hate Africa so much?

 

[Darwin333]

The Cold War came down to two super powers in a pissing match.
To be nations of such strength, both sides had to be pretty big on logical deductive reasoning.

Yes... we came close to MAD more than once, but deep down neither side wanted the world to end.

Nuclear proliferation keeps lowering the threshold for who can push this button. The risk of MAD is only increasing over time as more unstable actors gain nukes. We haven't survived it yet...

It's more like the people that can push the button, while not minding ordering people to their deaths, don't like the idea of dying themselves very much. Missiles start flying and they are either dying or their absolute favorite thing, power, is now useless as there is no one left to rule.

As such, I'm not really concerned with a nation launching a nuke at a population center (tactical nukes, especially against our carrier battle groups is another consideration altogether) at all. Some insane asshole gets his hands on one and I'm not so sure. BTW, even the most hated nations like Iran don't want nukes in the hands of those crazy assholes because of the above. If we get nuked we are nuking someone back.

 

[Darwin333]

Exactly, observable and repeatable proof will make believers out of all of you, but is that the kind of believers God would want?

What a dick.

 

[nickqt]

Is God made out of atoms?

Is God a male? Does "he" have a penis? Freckles? Sperm? DNA?

If someone wants to believe in a personal god that has values, I don't mind. But there is no evidence of a God in any sense of the word "evidence".

God and the belief thereof is from faith.

Reality and the observation thereof is from science.

Trying to use faith for observation of reality, or trying to use science for belief in God is an exercise in futility.

 

[Knowing]

But I find it very difficult to believe it has worked because of human reason alone. I'm agnostic but it looks like God may have intervened in close calls to hold off nuclear Armageddon until a later time. Which may be an indirect indication or proof that there is a God. I lean towards hoping this is not true at all and that humans alone and luck are responsible for no nuclear wars after Japan as one sided as it was.

Why?
What does holy intervention look like?
It could also be game theory.
Only if we know what to look for.
I'd exhaust secular reasons before looking for God's hand in things.

This discussion reminded me of an article I read in Foreign Affairs a couple of years ago. They've recently put most of it behind a pay wall, so I found a link to this pdf.

The problem with these concerns is that they contradict the record of every other nuclear weapons state going back to 1945. History shows that when countries acquire the bomb, they feel increasingly vulnerable and become acutely aware that their nuclear weapons make them a potential target in the eyes of major powers. This awareness discourages nuclear states from bold and aggressive action.

North Korea doesn't do missile tests because they're chomping at the bit to invade the Kurils before getting completely decimated, they do it because they're running low on food aid and because domestic policy demands it.

tl;dr - no one has used nukes because anyone who uses nukes without a really good reason is going to be shat on from a great height by most of the rest of the big kid club.