Using creatine for the first time

[TecHNooB]

Just got some creatine mono. What guidelines should I follow when using this stuff? I read this somewhere but I want some fresh answers

 

[paulxcook]

The generally-accepted rule on the bbing/powerlifting forum I frequent is 5g of creatine monohydrate per day. Don't bother with "loading phases", just do 5g a day, either in the morning on off days or 30 min pre-workout on lifting days. I'm sure some of the more-experienced lifters here can corroborate or debunk this.

 

[KoolDrew]

You could load, but in the end you'll have the same saturated creatine stores. Higher doses could result in gastric upset as well.

So just take 5g a day and don't worry about it.

EDIT - This is interesting...

Poortmans JR, Kumps A, Duez P, Fofonka A, Carpentier A, Francaux M.
Higher Institute of Physical Education and Physical Therapy, Free University of Brussels, Brussels, Belgium. jrpoortm@ulb.ac.be

PURPOSE: It has been claimed that oral creatine supplementation might have potential cytotoxic effects on healthy consumers by increasing the production of methylamine and formaldehyde. Despite this allegation, there has been no scientific evidence obtained in humans to sustain or disprove such a detrimental effect of this widely used ergogenic substance. METHODS: Twenty young healthy men ingested 21 g of creatine monohydrate daily for 14 consecutive days. Venous blood samples and 24-h urine were collected before and after the 14th day of supplementation. Creatine and creatinine were analyzed in plasma and urine, and methylamine, formaldehyde, and formate were determined in 24-h urine samples. RESULTS: Oral creatine supplementation increased plasma creatine content 7.2-fold (P < 0.001) and urine output 141-fold (P < 0.001) with no effect on creatinine levels. Twenty-four-hour urine excretion of methylamine and formaldehyde increased, respectively, 9.2-fold (P = 0.001) and 4.5-fold (P = 0.002) after creatine feeding, with no increase in urinary albumin output (9.78 +/- 1.93 mg x 24 h(-1) before, 6.97 +/- 1.15 mg x 24 h(-1) creatine feeding). CONCLUSION: This investigation shows that short-term, high-dose oral creatine supplementation enhances the excretion of potential cytotoxic compounds, but does not have any detrimental effects on kidney permeability. This provides indirect evidence of the absence of microangiopathy in renal glomeruli.

PMID: 16260971 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[TallBill]

No point in loading.

 

[BigPoppa]

Originally posted by: KoolDrew
You could load, but in the end you'll have the same saturated creatine stores. Higher doses could result in gastric upset as well.

So just take 5g a day and don't worry about it.

EDIT - This is interesting...

Poortmans JR, Kumps A, Duez P, Fofonka A, Carpentier A, Francaux M.
Higher Institute of Physical Education and Physical Therapy, Free University of Brussels, Brussels, Belgium. jrpoortm@ulb.ac.be

PURPOSE: It has been claimed that oral creatine supplementation might have potential cytotoxic effects on healthy consumers by increasing the production of methylamine and formaldehyde. Despite this allegation, there has been no scientific evidence obtained in humans to sustain or disprove such a detrimental effect of this widely used ergogenic substance. METHODS: Twenty young healthy men ingested 21 g of creatine monohydrate daily for 14 consecutive days. Venous blood samples and 24-h urine were collected before and after the 14th day of supplementation. Creatine and creatinine were analyzed in plasma and urine, and methylamine, formaldehyde, and formate were determined in 24-h urine samples. RESULTS: Oral creatine supplementation increased plasma creatine content 7.2-fold (P < 0.001) and urine output 141-fold (P < 0.001) with no effect on creatinine levels. Twenty-four-hour urine excretion of methylamine and formaldehyde increased, respectively, 9.2-fold (P = 0.001) and 4.5-fold (P = 0.002) after creatine feeding, with no increase in urinary albumin output (9.78 +/- 1.93 mg x 24 h(-1) before, 6.97 +/- 1.15 mg x 24 h(-1) creatine feeding). CONCLUSION: This investigation shows that short-term, high-dose oral creatine supplementation enhances the excretion of potential cytotoxic compounds, but does not have any detrimental effects on kidney permeability. This provides indirect evidence of the absence of microangiopathy in renal glomeruli.

PMID: 16260971 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Conclusion: Don't take 21g of creatine per day. Thats 4x what most recommend.

 

[KoolDrew]

Originally posted by: BigPoppa

Originally posted by: KoolDrew
You could load, but in the end you'll have the same saturated creatine stores. Higher doses could result in gastric upset as well.

So just take 5g a day and don't worry about it.

EDIT - This is interesting...

Poortmans JR, Kumps A, Duez P, Fofonka A, Carpentier A, Francaux M.
Higher Institute of Physical Education and Physical Therapy, Free University of Brussels, Brussels, Belgium. jrpoortm@ulb.ac.be

PURPOSE: It has been claimed that oral creatine supplementation might have potential cytotoxic effects on healthy consumers by increasing the production of methylamine and formaldehyde. Despite this allegation, there has been no scientific evidence obtained in humans to sustain or disprove such a detrimental effect of this widely used ergogenic substance. METHODS: Twenty young healthy men ingested 21 g of creatine monohydrate daily for 14 consecutive days. Venous blood samples and 24-h urine were collected before and after the 14th day of supplementation. Creatine and creatinine were analyzed in plasma and urine, and methylamine, formaldehyde, and formate were determined in 24-h urine samples. RESULTS: Oral creatine supplementation increased plasma creatine content 7.2-fold (P < 0.001) and urine output 141-fold (P < 0.001) with no effect on creatinine levels. Twenty-four-hour urine excretion of methylamine and formaldehyde increased, respectively, 9.2-fold (P = 0.001) and 4.5-fold (P = 0.002) after creatine feeding, with no increase in urinary albumin output (9.78 +/- 1.93 mg x 24 h(-1) before, 6.97 +/- 1.15 mg x 24 h(-1) creatine feeding). CONCLUSION: This investigation shows that short-term, high-dose oral creatine supplementation enhances the excretion of potential cytotoxic compounds, but does not have any detrimental effects on kidney permeability. This provides indirect evidence of the absence of microangiopathy in renal glomeruli.

PMID: 16260971 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Conclusion: Don't take 21g of creatine per day. Thats 4x what most recommend.

Many people, including supplement companies, recommend doing a "loading" phase for creatine. A lot of times it's something along the lines of 20g per day for 5 days and then 5g per day after that to maintain.

However, like myself and others in this thread have mentioned, there's really no benefit to doing this. The study I posted was just showing one more disadvantage of loading creatine.

 

[paulxcook]

Originally posted by: KoolDrew
You could load, but in the end you'll have the same saturated creatine stores. Higher doses could result in gastric upset as well.

So just take 5g a day and don't worry about it.

EDIT - This is interesting...

Poortmans JR, Kumps A, Duez P, Fofonka A, Carpentier A, Francaux M.
Higher Institute of Physical Education and Physical Therapy, Free University of Brussels, Brussels, Belgium. jrpoortm@ulb.ac.be

PURPOSE: It has been claimed that oral creatine supplementation might have potential cytotoxic effects on healthy consumers by increasing the production of methylamine and formaldehyde. Despite this allegation, there has been no scientific evidence obtained in humans to sustain or disprove such a detrimental effect of this widely used ergogenic substance. METHODS: Twenty young healthy men ingested 21 g of creatine monohydrate daily for 14 consecutive days. Venous blood samples and 24-h urine were collected before and after the 14th day of supplementation. Creatine and creatinine were analyzed in plasma and urine, and methylamine, formaldehyde, and formate were determined in 24-h urine samples. RESULTS: Oral creatine supplementation increased plasma creatine content 7.2-fold (P < 0.001) and urine output 141-fold (P < 0.001) with no effect on creatinine levels. Twenty-four-hour urine excretion of methylamine and formaldehyde increased, respectively, 9.2-fold (P = 0.001) and 4.5-fold (P = 0.002) after creatine feeding, with no increase in urinary albumin output (9.78 +/- 1.93 mg x 24 h(-1) before, 6.97 +/- 1.15 mg x 24 h(-1) creatine feeding). CONCLUSION: This investigation shows that short-term, high-dose oral creatine supplementation enhances the excretion of potential cytotoxic compounds, but does not have any detrimental effects on kidney permeability. This provides indirect evidence of the absence of microangiopathy in renal glomeruli.

PMID: 16260971 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

If I were ever considering loading before I'm definitely not now. Formaldehyde is for corpses.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: paulxcook

Originally posted by: KoolDrew
You could load, but in the end you'll have the same saturated creatine stores. Higher doses could result in gastric upset as well.

So just take 5g a day and don't worry about it.

EDIT - This is interesting...

Poortmans JR, Kumps A, Duez P, Fofonka A, Carpentier A, Francaux M.
Higher Institute of Physical Education and Physical Therapy, Free University of Brussels, Brussels, Belgium. jrpoortm@ulb.ac.be

PURPOSE: It has been claimed that oral creatine supplementation might have potential cytotoxic effects on healthy consumers by increasing the production of methylamine and formaldehyde. Despite this allegation, there has been no scientific evidence obtained in humans to sustain or disprove such a detrimental effect of this widely used ergogenic substance. METHODS: Twenty young healthy men ingested 21 g of creatine monohydrate daily for 14 consecutive days. Venous blood samples and 24-h urine were collected before and after the 14th day of supplementation. Creatine and creatinine were analyzed in plasma and urine, and methylamine, formaldehyde, and formate were determined in 24-h urine samples. RESULTS: Oral creatine supplementation increased plasma creatine content 7.2-fold (P < 0.001) and urine output 141-fold (P < 0.001) with no effect on creatinine levels. Twenty-four-hour urine excretion of methylamine and formaldehyde increased, respectively, 9.2-fold (P = 0.001) and 4.5-fold (P = 0.002) after creatine feeding, with no increase in urinary albumin output (9.78 +/- 1.93 mg x 24 h(-1) before, 6.97 +/- 1.15 mg x 24 h(-1) creatine feeding). CONCLUSION: This investigation shows that short-term, high-dose oral creatine supplementation enhances the excretion of potential cytotoxic compounds, but does not have any detrimental effects on kidney permeability. This provides indirect evidence of the absence of microangiopathy in renal glomeruli.

PMID: 16260971 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

If I were ever considering loading before I'm definitely not now. Formaldehyde is for corpses.

Ick, I loaded for a while, but was definitely taking in a ton of water to make sure I didn't get any nasty stuff stewing too long in my kidneys. I will definitely keep this in mind. I'll probably cycle off creatine in a little bit and then slow get back on it until my little tub is done. After that, I'm pretty sure I'll be done with it.

 

[KoolDrew]

I'll probably cycle off creatine in a little bit and then slow get back on it until my little tub is done.

Why?

After that, I'm pretty sure I'll be done with it.

Again, why?

 

[crt1530]

The loading idea was invented to get people to go through their creatine quickly when it was sold in much smaller quantities for much higher prices back in the early 90s.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: KoolDrew

I'll probably cycle off creatine in a little bit and then slow get back on it until my little tub is done.

Why?

After that, I'm pretty sure I'll be done with it.

Again, why?

Just in case. I know there isn't any research against not cycling, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. I'm always a skeptic and when it comes to my body, I want to make sure everything is pristine. Also, I'll be done with it because 1) I won't be doing super heavy lifting, 2) I like doing my things without supplements (it's just a personal thing), 3) I want to get to around 150 while being off creatine and after cutting to about 10% BF. An additional reason is 4) I don't feel like having to buy more stuff. I'd rather spend it on something else.

 

[KoolDrew]

Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure you weren't under the impression cycling creatine had some sort of benefit, because it doesn't.

 

[crt1530]

Originally posted by: KoolDrew
Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure you weren't under the impression cycling creatine had some sort of benefit, because it doesn't.

Yep. Another holdover from 90s marketing when people were trying to equate creatine's effectiveness to that of steroids.

 

[paulxcook]

All I know is I do whatever Jay Cutler ads tell me to do.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: paulxcook
All I know is I do whatever Jay Cutler ads tell me to do.

LOL, if you want to look like him you'd have to juice.

 

[KeypoX]

i havent dont sups in a long time but, i thought creatine ethyl ester was better than monohydrate. though i did read that the increased water in that monohydrate helps you retain is where the main benefit comes from for monohydrate. Though of course the increased ATP supply is what creatine is sold as.

I still have some old CEE but dunno if it is still effective as it is years old. I think i will start taking it again as i am trying to lose weight and as such i have lost alot of strength .

Also when using monohydrate you need to take before workout about 5g and with a big glass of grapejuice. The sugar with the creatine will give you the best boast.

 

[KeypoX]

Originally posted by: crt1530
The loading idea was invented to get people to go through their creatine quickly when it was sold in much smaller quantities for much higher prices back in the early 90s.

you have proof of this? Because i just read a study that says loading at 20g a day is the most effective way to raise creatine levels

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/81/1/232

Muscle creatine loading in men

E. Hultman, K. Soderlund, J. A. Timmons, G. Cederblad and P. L. Greenhaff
Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, University Medical School, Queen's Medical Centre, Nottingham, United Kingdom.

The effect of dietary creatine and supplementation on skeletal muscle creatine accumulation and subsequent degradation and on urinary creatinine excretion was investigated in 31 male subjects who ingested creatine in different quantities over varying time periods. Muscle total creatine concentration increased by approximately 20% after 6 days of creatine supplementation at a rate of 20 g/day. This elevated concentration was maintained when supplementation was continued at a rate of 2 g/day for a further 30 days. In the absence of 2 g/day supplementation, total creatine concentration gradually declined, such that 30 days after the cessation of supplementation the concentration was no different from the presupplementation value. During this period, urinary creatinine excretion was correspondingly increased. A similar, but more gradual, 20% increase in muscle total creatine concentration was observed over a period of 28 days when supplementation was undertaken at a rate of 3 g/day. In conclusion, a rapid way to "creatine load" human skeletal muscle is to ingest 20 g of creatine for 6 days. This elevated tissue concentration can then be maintained by ingestion of 2 g/day thereafter. The ingestion of 3 g creatine/day is in the long term likely to be as effective at raising tissue levels as this higher dose.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: KeypoX

Originally posted by: crt1530
The loading idea was invented to get people to go through their creatine quickly when it was sold in much smaller quantities for much higher prices back in the early 90s.

you have proof of this? Because i just read a study that says loading at 20g a day is the most effective way to raise creatine levels

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/81/1/232

Muscle creatine loading in men

E. Hultman, K. Soderlund, J. A. Timmons, G. Cederblad and P. L. Greenhaff
Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, University Medical School, Queen's Medical Centre, Nottingham, United Kingdom.

The effect of dietary creatine and supplementation on skeletal muscle creatine accumulation and subsequent degradation and on urinary creatinine excretion was investigated in 31 male subjects who ingested creatine in different quantities over varying time periods. Muscle total creatine concentration increased by approximately 20% after 6 days of creatine supplementation at a rate of 20 g/day. This elevated concentration was maintained when supplementation was continued at a rate of 2 g/day for a further 30 days. In the absence of 2 g/day supplementation, total creatine concentration gradually declined, such that 30 days after the cessation of supplementation the concentration was no different from the presupplementation value. During this period, urinary creatinine excretion was correspondingly increased. A similar, but more gradual, 20% increase in muscle total creatine concentration was observed over a period of 28 days when supplementation was undertaken at a rate of 3 g/day. In conclusion, a rapid way to "creatine load" human skeletal muscle is to ingest 20 g of creatine for 6 days. This elevated tissue concentration can then be maintained by ingestion of 2 g/day thereafter. The ingestion of 3 g creatine/day is in the long term likely to be as effective at raising tissue levels as this higher dose.

Loading is more effective in getting your levels up quickly, but also you will go through your creatine fast. On top of that, if you read the excerpt of the article KoolDrew posted, you will see that it increases formaldehyde, methylamine, and formate were found in much higher outputs than normal. These are potentially TOXIC to your body and I wouldn't load again due to their increased presence.

 

[KoolDrew]

i havent dont sups in a long time but, i thought creatine ethyl ester was better than monohydrate.

Once the ester is removed, it's just plain old creatine. The addition of the ester means CEE may be taken up into muscle tissues faster, but the upper limit still doesn't change.

Pretty much the same thing with loading creatine. Loading will only effect the rate at which intramuscular creatine stores are filled, but once those creatine stores are topped out it doesn't make a difference.

 

[TecHNooB]

Nice info guys. One question.

Do you take creatine on rest days?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: TecHNooB
Nice info guys. One question.

Do you take creatine on rest days?

Yep, you still gotta keep the levels up.

 

[SearchMaster]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: paulxcook
All I know is I do whatever Jay Cutler ads tell me to do.

LOL, if you want to look like him you'd have to juice.

Heh - I didn't know who you were talking about and kept thinking to myself, "The Denver Broncos QB is on 'roids?????"

 

[Safeway]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: TecHNooB
Nice info guys. One question.

Do you take creatine on rest days?

Yep, you still gotta keep the levels up.

Agreed. Your muscles need to be constantly saturated with creatine. If you take a week or two off, it is up to you if you want to conserve your creatine supply or not. If you want to save money, don't take it. It only takes 3 or 4 days to reach saturation again.

 

[TheNinja]

I also recommend taking your creatine with some simple sugars. I usually use dextrose, maltodextrin, gatorade, waxy maize starch, grape juice, etc. I've heard that you should stay away from citric juices with your creatine though.

I usually do 3g 2 times a day. One in the morning with my breakfast juice/shake. One time post workout with my waxy maize starch/dextrose. Or if I don't workout then just one time in the late afternoon with something with some carbs/sugar.

 

[Safeway]

Originally posted by: TheNinja
I also recommend taking your creatine with some simple sugars.

Very true. A glucose spike in your blood enhances transport of creatine into the muscle!