Use of Ephedra products

BD231

Lifer
Feb 26, 2001
10,568
138
106
I'm an athlete (football) and I'm constantly looking to get an edge on people, wether it's a special move, mind trick or physical advantage. I've just gotten over a knee surgery not to long ago and I'm going strong again, however, I had lost a step in agility and top speed which I was eager to get back.

I've lost alot of weight in the past with Ephedra based products, but until recently, I've never taken the stuff while playing a sport. I gave this a try and my report is in: " Taking Ephedra based products durring times of heavy athletic activity can and will make your heart explode and or stop beating ".

I'm convinced these ephedra/caffiene products directly effect the device that keeps your heart beating properly. My stamina while distance running is GREATLY increased by taking the combo and I notice no difference in heart activity, but once I push any muscle in my body harder than my heart can provide it energy, heartbeat becomes an unsafe issue.

Sprinting is not an option on these pills, and I believe these pills should be banned from every sport on this earth. I've not had any horrible expierence with these pills thankfully, but, I know how my body acts under stress, and these pills put WAY to much stress on an athletes body.

I think they're safe for weightloss, but nothing else. Dose anyone know of any good articles that express the downsides of these kinds of pills? I'd like to gather all the info. I can on this for quick reference.
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
they arew bad for you. even just weight loss. the raise the hell out of you BP. shouldent use them period
 

Vadatajs

Diamond Member
Aug 28, 2001
3,475
0
0
Ephedra isn't even safe for weight loss. People need to lose weight through diet and exercise, not a pill. It becomes habit forming if not used properly, and not many people are capable of using it properly. If you're currently using it: STOP. If you're thinking of it: DON'T. There are no quick and easy ways to lose weight.
 

pg22

Platinum Member
Feb 9, 2000
2,644
0
76
I've taken 3 Xenadrine's prior to working out and I lived. gtruth be told, I would trade them in for safer versions except that I don;t have that kind of money to throw around. Hopefully I'll live through the next 100 or so pills ;)
 

fumbduck

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2001
4,349
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i tried them for weightloss and they gave me a lot of energy, but i gained muscle instead
 

PunDogg

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2002
4,529
1
0
I have taken ephedra for a about a year now, i run thats the reason i take it, i also own a GNC store in the western PA area, and i have had no problems with ephedra, it has only helped me, i tell people with heart problems, and high BP should not take it, do u have heart problems, maybe ones that u don;t know off, and also were u following the dirs, and how much did u take(dosage). Cuz i just follow the dirs and they have done wonders for me, and i have no adverse heart problems

Dogg
 

pg22

Platinum Member
Feb 9, 2000
2,644
0
76
I honestly think it's worse if you take it soley for weight loss, without any excercise, and expect to lose weight. I take iot because it gives that extra juice when you're doing any athletic activity.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
If anything i would say it's worst if all you're taking it for is weightloss.

I take a 20mg of ephedrine when i need that pep for my workout or class (martial arts)... and it's work just fine. I do notice i sweat a bit more though.
 

BD231

Lifer
Feb 26, 2001
10,568
138
106
Exercise IS needed with these pills, I'm just talking serious training though. The stuff helps me immensly in many ways but I'm a running back/wide reciver at the moment and as you can imagine I do ALOT of sprinting. There was for sure added stress on the heart, nothing I couldn't take but it didn't feel all that great after do 800+ yards in wind sprints.

I can for sure see how the stuff can kill someone through missuse easy, and I'm just posting my own personal feelings on the product for any athletes on these boards. BE CAREFUL!! Any articles for me people?
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,947
572
126
Originally posted by: 911paramedic
The FDA is trying to ban it for good reason, it's dangerous.
The FDA would ban have banned ephedra except it would require evidence to ban it under a resulting court challenge. It has no evidence that ephedra is 'inordinately' dangerous, at least not any more 'dangerous' than hundreds of products which the FDA has 'certified' as being safe which kill more people annually than ephedra. Aspirin being just one.

The GAO took the FDA to task for its sloppy science regarding the risks of ephedra. That's why the FDA backed-off its push to ban it. It needs evidence to support the ban in court, and it has none.
FDA?s proposal was based primarily on the more than 800 adverse event reports that the agency had received between 1993 and June 1997. FDA stated that it had purposefully not considered the long record of safety for the more potent over-the-counter ephedrine drug products for asthma because, according to FDA, asthmatics are less sensitive to ephedrine.

However, FDA cited no scientific evidence for this assertion, and subsequent review of the medical literature has revealed no basis for rejecting this wealth of safety data. FDA also asserted that clinical studies on ephedrine for use in the treatment of obesity were also not relevant to the safety of Ephedra because obese individuals may be less sensitive to ephedrine, but again FDA cited no studies to support this theory.

In the end, careful examination of FDA?s very lengthy proposed rule showed that the proposed limits were based almost entirely on the adverse event reports, reports that FDA had historically found to be unreliable and therefore not useful for determining product risk. Therefore, the scientific validity of FDA?s proposal rose or fell depending on the quality of the adverse event reports and their relationship to Ephedra consumption.

Surprisingly, congressional inquiry into FDA?s proposed rule revealed that FDA never examined the adverse event reports on which it relied to determine if there was any relationship between the event and the consumption of Ephedra. Indeed, a number of the reports related to products that did not even contain Ephedra, but were nonetheless counted by FDA as Ephedra-related events.

As a direct result of FDA?s failure to perform even the most simple quality review of its reports, FDA?s record for the proposed rule included absurd reports such as the following:

a report of a woman whose blood alcohol was twice the legal limit and who died of a fractured skull after driving her truck into a tree at 90 mph;

a report of a man who shot himself;

a report of a suicide from a gunshot wound;

a report of a man who died of environmental hyperthermia;

a report stating "Shot and killed store clerk";

a report of a woman who "got pregnant though using Norplant"; and

reports of excessive hairiness, a 75-year old woman menstruating, a possible diagnosis of multiple sclerosis, a case of impotence and a case of constant erection.


Careful analysis of the record that FDA had compiled showed that at least 85 percent of the reports on which FDA had relied were so lacking in information essential to a scientific assessment of their relationship to the consumption of Ephedra that they were informationally worthless. Further, FDA had relied on just 13 of the reports as a basis for the proposed dose limits, even though the agency never reviewed these few reports to determine if they were causally related to the consumption of Ephedra. These immediate problems with FDA?s proposed rule led to more thorough review of the rule by Congress, a critical review by the General Accounting Office (GAO), and to the eventual and unprecedented withdrawal of the key portions of the proposed rule.

WHY HAS FDA WITHDRAWN PORTIONS OF ITS PROPOSED RULE?

A number of companies that marketed ephedra products were legitimately concerned about the safety issues that FDA raised in its June 1997 proposal to prohibit most uses of ephedra products. These companies had sold thousands and in some cases millions of servings of ephedra products, but had either received no reports, or only isolated reports, of problems with their products. Several of these companies decided to hire qualified independent experts to review the scientific basis for FDA?s proposed rule.

Although there were several separate efforts to review FDA?s basis for the proposed rule, the conclusions of these efforts were essentially the same; FDA did not have a valid scientific basis for the proposed rule.

The vast majority of the adverse event reports, approximately 85 percent, were informationally worthless because they lacked essential information such as how much Ephedra was consumed and for how long, the identity of the product at issue, and medical records including prior medical history.

The proposed serving limits were based on just 13 out of more than 900 reports, and FDA admitted in the proposed rule that it did not attempt to determine whether any of the 13 reports were causally related to the consumption of Ephedra. Independent expert review revealed that the 13 reports could not be scientifically attributed to Ephedra.

There was no scientific basis for either FDA?s duration limit (no more than seven days of use), which led FDA to prohibit use for weight loss and other uses that would encourage longer-term use, or for the agency?s prohibition on combining Ephedra with caffeine.

Over 20,000 comments to the proposed rule, the vast majority opposing the rule, were filed with FDA.

One set of comments, filed by the Small Business Administration (SBA), deserves special mention. SBA was highly critical of FDA?s proposed rule as a result of FDA?s serious underestimation of the number of small businesses that would be impacted. However, the SBA also raised serious questions about the lack of any apparent scientific basis for the proposed rule, and about FDA?s cost/benefit analysis.

The SBA comments were instrumental in activating congressional involvement with FDA?s Ephedra proposal. After review of the relevant information, including the SBA comments, the House Committee on Science, by letter dated May 12, 1998, requested the GAO to conduct an audit of FDA?s scientific basis for the proposed serving limits (less than 8 mg ephedrine alkaloids per serving, less than 24 mg per day) and duration limit (no more than 7 days). The Committee on Science also requested that GAO examine the quality of the cost/benefit analysis FDA had included to justify the need for a regulation.

The GAO made its completed audit public in early August, 1999. The GAO concluded that FDA did not have a sufficient scientific basis for the serving and duration limits that the agency proposed, and also concluded that the cost/benefit analysis was deficient in several important ways.

With respect to FDA?s reliance on just 13 adverse event reports (AERs) to establish a serving limit, the GAO stated

While FDA used these 13 AERs to set a dosing level, the agency did not perform a causal analysis to determine whether the reported events were, in fact, caused by the ingestion of dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids. Our review of these 13 AERs found numerous problems that raise questions about the causal relationship between ingestion of the implicated product and the adverse events observed. For example,

? three AERS included physician reports that stated the cause of the event was not related to a dietary supplement;

? one consumer-related sample was obtained and tested 2 years after the initial event, and possible reformulations of the product might have resulted in different levels of ephedrine than the product implicated in the reported adverse event;

? three individuals reporting adverse events had experienced similar problems prior to or well after using the dietary supplement;

? one individual who experienced the event was eating only one meal a day; and one AER contained no medical records.

Some of the 13 AERs had more than one of these problems. As a result, there are uncertainties in FDA?s conclusions in setting a specific dosing limit since this limit was based on a small number of adverse events?events which may or may not have been a result of ingestion of dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids.

GAO Report, pages 13-14.

With respect to FDA?s proposed duration limit, the GAO concluded that

FDA did not present scientific evidence specifically pointing to an increase in adverse events beginning at 7 days and under normal use conditions. Rather, the scientific information FDA used to support a 7-day limit outlined problems associated with extended use (months and years) of ephedrine alkaloids. The agency also cited support for its 7-day limit from studies involving other sympathomimetic agents, such as cocaine and methamphetamines, but these studies also involved long-term use of the drug.

GAO report, page 14. As a result of these and other problems, the GAO found that "there are uncertainties in the agency?s analysis of the relationship between duration of use of dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids and the occurrence of adverse events." GAO report, page 14.

GAO also found numerous serious problems with FDA?s cost/benefit analysis, including the following:

FDA failed to consider whether state regulations being developed or already in place were sufficient to address FDA?s concerns, and therefore did not establish that there was (or is) any need for the regulation. GAO report, pages 43-44.

FDA did not establish a base-line level of risk for the adverse events at issue, and as a consequence FDA never considered whether the proposed rule would provide any benefit compared to taking no action. GAO report, pages 45-46.

FDA?s estimates of yearly averages of serious events, in addition to being based on an undocumented set of AERs, were also based on the unsupported and unscientific assumption that 80 percent of the AERs were in fact caused by ephedra products. GAO report, pages 48-50. In fact, the GAO found that FDA had never reviewed the AERs used as a basis for the proposed rule and the cost-benefit analysis to determine if any of the AERs were actually a result of the products at issue. GAO report, pages 11, 14, and 49-50.

The GAO found that, when FDA established its assumed percentages of events caused by ephedra products, FDA chose a high estimate within a large range of possible estimates, again without explanation. The GAO concluded that FDA?s use of inflated numbers "drove up the estimated number of actual adverse events and, as a direct consequence, the estimated benefits of the proposed rule." GAO report, page 49.

Finally, the GAO found that FDA also failed to conduct a "sensitivity analysis" or to consider the implications of "alternative assumptions," GAO report, page 51-55. As the GAO noted, "[c]hanges in any of [FDA?s assumptions] could have dramatically changed FDA?s estimates of the proposed rule?s benefits. GAO report, page 19.

FDA made errors that tended to inflate the benefits of the proposal. The GAO found that not even FDA could repeat the analysis. The GAO?s findings, when combined with the criticisms of the Small Business Administration (SBA) that FDA has seriously underestimated the costs of the proposed limits on small businesses, made it impossible to rely on FDA?s claim that there was any public health benefit to the proposed rule, or that any such benefit would be greater than the costs of the regulation.

The simple answer to the question of why FDA has had to withdraw its proposed ban on Ephedra is that the GAO exposed FDA?s lack of science in a way that it was impossible for FDA to ignore. The message that FDA could not go forward without real science to support any future proposal was included in GAO recommendations to the Department of Health and Human Services and to FDA:

Given the uncertainties in the information upon which FDA based its proposed rule, we recommend that the Secretary of Health and Human Services direct the Commissioner of FDA to obtain additional information to support conclusions regarding the specific requirements in the proposed rule for dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids before proceeding to final rulemaking. Specifically, FDA needs to provide stronger evidence on the relationship between the intake of dietary supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids and the occurrence of adverse reactions that support the proposed dosing levels and duration of use limits. GAO report, pages 24-25.
 

Vernor

Senior member
Sep 9, 2001
875
0
0
Originally posted by: 911paramedic
The FDA is trying to ban it for good reason, it's dangerous.

So's Tylenol.


It's a real wonder why people sue MCdonalds,or try to ban Oreos.
 

KokomoGST

Diamond Member
Nov 13, 2001
3,758
0
0
Originally posted by: 911paramedic
The FDA is trying to ban it for good reason, it's dangerous.

Nono... it's try to regulate it. The FDA wants it to be at least regulated like Tylenol is. There are currently no real drug standards for ephedra products so they can pretty much sell it without real regulation since it is a supplement. Most physicians and pharmacists do believe that it should be treated like a drug. In fact, most medical professionals don't like the stuff at all... even though some patients ask for it sometimes.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
People need to lose weight through diet and exercise, not a pill. It becomes habit forming if not used properly, and not many people are capable of using it properly.
I've been saying that for a while. I've used them in the past and they do work, but if you rely on something like this to lose weight once you stop taking it (as you inevitably will if you care about your body) the weight is almost sure to pile back on. Weight loss should be acheived by something you know you can do long term, and relying on a medication/drug to do it - one that you can't safely take long term - is only patching the problem, not solving it.
 

JonTheBaller

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2002
1,916
0
0
I actually used to take half a pill sometimes to study. Even half a pill had a pretty drastic effect on me. I found that I focused better, and had some symptoms similar to Adderall, including complete loss of appetite. When I was coming off it though, I came down hard - usually had to take a nap. Also, can anyone explain why they smell like sh!t?
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Originally posted by: 911paramedic
The FDA is trying to ban it for good reason, it's dangerous.

FDA is being called on to ban it by crazy mothers blaming their dumbass kids retardation on everyone else. So the FDA is trying to find any reason to do so.

America bans things due to idiots.....in a lot of other nations where it is banned, synthesis of other drugs, namely 'Meth' is a big reason....with a simple lab at home and an internet recipe is all you need.

Like any drug, the effects could be different for everyone. The bottle calls for usually starting with 1 pill and checking tolerance (at least the ones I take). I take two caps (20mg/200mg) 3x per day now...for me, even out of shape it raises my pulse about 10 beats per minute to about 70-75...which is still a low pulse. The ECA stack (aspirin is added to combat the headache some get from the slight nasal congestion that can be caused) has been around successfully for a long long time. The problem is now people are using it for the meth type properties and also trying to take 40mg+ at a time....just stupid esp. when they jump right into 4 caps for their very first dosage.

I combine my dosage with about 300mg of green tea extract and things work better it seems (lost 2" / nearly 10lbs in about 3 weeks).

Another big thing is caffeine avoidance is important and another cause of problems expecially with the chain coffee/soda drinkers.

Now with Tylenol....more people die / are damaged by Tylenol every year than almost any other OTC product....one dose can kill you or cause irreversible liver damage. Now it is very rare, but one of the more common rarities....much more than Ephedra (which has been used by asthma patients in identical dosages for years and years without incident, think about that...).

Now Tylenol has a big backing as do many drugs which are actually pretty dangerous but you don't hear about them due to mostly worry of counter-lawsuit or quick settlements with non-disclosure agreements.

 

BigJ

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
21,330
1
81
Originally posted by: BD231
I'm an athlete (football) and I'm constantly looking to get an edge on people, wether it's a special move, mind trick or physical advantage. I've just gotten over a knee surgery not to long ago and I'm going strong again, however, I had lost a step in agility and top speed which I was eager to get back.

I've lost alot of weight in the past with Ephedra based products, but until recently, I've never taken the stuff while playing a sport. I gave this a try and my report is in: " Taking Ephedra based products durring times of heavy athletic activity can and will make your heart explode and or stop beating ".

I'm convinced these ephedra/caffiene products directly effect the device that keeps your heart beating properly. My stamina while distance running is GREATLY increased by taking the combo and I notice no difference in heart activity, but once I push any muscle in my body harder than my heart can provide it energy, heartbeat becomes an unsafe issue.

Sprinting is not an option on these pills, and I believe these pills should be banned from every sport on this earth. I've not had any horrible expierence with these pills thankfully, but, I know how my body acts under stress, and these pills put WAY to much stress on an athletes body.

I think they're safe for weightloss, but nothing else. Dose anyone know of any good articles that express the downsides of these kinds of pills? I'd like to gather all the info. I can on this for quick reference.

Gonna have to agree with you on this one. I took Hydroxycut with Epedra in it for about 2 months. Lost 25lbs, but it was a horrible time indeed. My heart during sprints or heavy lifting was ridiculous, felt like it was going to go through my chest. And especially taking 2 pills a day, twice a day. My heart would always be racing, even when trying to sleep. My friends have taken it after my experience, and one thing I always recommened to them is to not do anything strenuous during usage.

 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Originally posted by: johnnytightlips
I actually used to take half a pill sometimes to study. Even half a pill had a pretty drastic effect on me. I found that I focused better, and had some symptoms similar to Adderall, including complete loss of appetite. When I was coming off it though, I came down hard - usually had to take a nap. Also, can anyone explain why they smell like sh!t?

You are probably referring to the misnomer of Guarana = Guano (which is bat droppings)...this is a widespread error.

Muhuang is from Country Mallow and Guarana is a berry. They give the ephedra and caffiene components respectively.

Another misconception is White Willow = Aspirin....it doesn't...it does have some properties though for many.

As far as which brand is best, it comes down to the big names TwinLabs, EAS, etc....these drugs are not regulated and that means the label does not have to equal what's in the bottle.

www.drumlib.com has a lot of great info, including pricing based on dosages.
 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,419
8
81
heh, the little Asian store by where my girlfriend used to live sold these little packets called Ephedra 850.

We just called them "3 little black pills". They were fun. :D 500mg of ephedra in each capsule, we'd usually take 2 each. :Q
 

JonTheBaller

Golden Member
Dec 2, 2002
1,916
0
0
Originally posted by: alkemyst
You are probably referring to the misnomer of Guarana = Guano (which is bat droppings)...this is a widespread error.

Is Guarana in Ephedra-based products?