USB 3.0 problems for Intel's Haswell

[Vesku]

The irony here is that Intel likes to advertise their home-grown USB prowess, so borking their native USB3 implementation is kinda sad IMO.

But we have yet to see if this actually pans out as a practical concern for products that actually hit the market. AMD's TLB bug with Phenom wasn't a practical concern in the consumer space but AMD (over)reacted as if it were.

Intel still has time to fix this (if the rumor is even true), or they may elect to leave it as is just like they did with the 24fps "bug" in their integrated GPUs.

Wouldn't say AMD overreacted more that the desktop motherboard manufacturers chose to enable the fix by default. This in turn generated many metric tons of bad PR for AMD.

As for this USB3 thing, it's definitely a bit embarrassing just from the standpoint of having problems implementing your own technology standard. What I'm more interested in though, will this be fixed prior to launch. If it's not fixed will the issue be disclosed properly or will it be a repeat of missing virtualization features on early SB-E chips?

 

[Fjodor2001]

Some more details about the USB problem here:

http://www.pcauthority.com.au/News/335598,intels-upcoming-z87-chipset-has-an-annoying-usb-3-bug.aspx

"It is the S3 sleep state to be precise, and the issue affects the USB3 controller in the C1 stepping version of the chipset. This is the version of the chipset that will ship with initial Haswell systems, and it is a problem that won’t be rectified until the C2 stepping ships in July.

The problem in question effects some USB flash drives, and involves the chipset ceasing to poll some drives when a Z87 system enters an S3 sleep state. This means that the USB drive does not wake back up with the system, and you need to reconnect the drive in order to continue working with it.

In practical terms this means that any applications accessing files on an effected USB drive will lose them if a PC enters an S3 state. In the case of a document, for example, you’ll need to go back to the last saved version.

Ultimately this is more of a nuisance than a potentially system destroying bug like that which called the recall of the Sandy Bridge chipsets back in 2011. But it is still going to be a major annoyance in the first wave of retail Z87 products. Such an annoying, replicable, known bug has the potential to hamper the uptake of the new Haswell CPUs when they launch and is going to cause serious headaches for manufacturers left to deal with complaints."

So it seems like it will be fixed in the C2 stepping of the chipset that ships in July. But the question is how long it will take until you safely can know C1 stepping has been cleared out of inventory?

 

[Sherlockwing]

Some more details about the USB problem here:

http://www.pcauthority.com.au/News/335598,intels-upcoming-z87-chipset-has-an-annoying-usb-3-bug.aspx

"It is the S3 sleep state to be precise, and the issue affects the USB3 controller in the C1 stepping version of the chipset. This is the version of the chipset that will ship with initial Haswell systems, and it is a problem that won’t be rectified until the C2 stepping ships in July.

The problem in question effects some USB flash drives, and involves the chipset ceasing to poll some drives when a Z87 system enters an S3 sleep state. This means that the USB drive does not wake back up with the system, and you need to reconnect the drive in order to continue working with it.

In practical terms this means that any applications accessing files on an effected USB drive will lose them if a PC enters an S3 state. In the case of a document, for example, you’ll need to go back to the last saved version.

Ultimately this is more of a nuisance than a potentially system destroying bug like that which called the recall of the Sandy Bridge chipsets back in 2011. But it is still going to be a major annoyance in the first wave of retail Z87 products. Such an annoying, replicable, known bug has the potential to hamper the uptake of the new Haswell CPUs when they launch and is going to cause serious headaches for manufacturers left to deal with complaints."

So it seems like it will be fixed in the C2 stepping of the chipset that ships in July. But the question is how long it will take until you safely can know C1 stepping has been cleared out of inventory?

Hareware info just confirmed this. It would be helpful for the Motherboard manufacturer to label the Mobos with the C2 stepping Chipset as R2 or Rev.2.

 

[Fjodor2001]

Hareware info just confirmed this. It would be helpful for the Motherboard manufacturer to label the Mobos with the C2 stepping Chipset as R2 or Rev.2.

Yes, that would be helpful. And people buying separate motherboards and assembling their own computers are usually will informed so they can tell the difference between Rev 1 & Rev 2 in that case.

But the question is how they will handle the problem for e.g. pre-built computers and laptops? Does anyone know how they have handled similar cases in the past? Could there for example be a Asus Zenbook UX40 Rev1 vs Rev2? Or maybe that's not so likely since it will confuse the average customers?

 

[Rvenger]

As long as my keyboard and mouse are fine when resuming from S3, I'm all good here.

 

[Fjodor2001]

As long as my keyboard and mouse are fine when resuming from S3, I'm all good here.

But you're not everyone...

Also, isn't it kind of strange that only USB mass storage devices should be having problems resuming from S3? What makes them special, so that they are the only USB devices affected by this problem?

 

[ShintaiDK]

But you're not everyone...

Also, isn't it kind of strange that only USB mass storage devices should be having problems resuming from S3? What makes them special, so that they are the only USB devices affected by this problem?

Like the spinup and init of a HD via USB?

 

[Fjodor2001]

Like the spinup and init of a HD via USB?

Well, you likely have similar resume/init procedures for other USB devices too, right?

 

[NTMBK]

But you're not everyone...

Also, isn't it kind of strange that only USB mass storage devices should be having problems resuming from S3? What makes them special, so that they are the only USB devices affected by this problem?

My USB hard drive has problems if I leave a video paused for too long...

 

[ShintaiDK]

Well, you likely have similar resume/init procedures for other USB devices too, right?

Only storage devices really. And HDs was just the extreme example. Since they are terrible even today.

 

[podspi]

I suppose one way to get around this would be to use a different USB controller, right?

So if I was HP I could just use another USB3 controller integrated on the motherboard, and if I was me I can just buy a pcie usb controller? Annoying, but not the end of the world.

 

[phillyman36]

Pretty much the same info from Techpowerup

http://www.techpowerup.com/181269/L...ller-Issue-Correction-Needs-New-Hardware.html


Lynx Point USB 3.0 Controller Issue Correction Needs New Hardware
The issue with USB 3.0 controllers integrated into Intel's upcoming "Lynx Point" 8-series core logic can be addressed only with new hardware (modifying the silicon), according to a new Hardware.info report. Intel decided against delaying launch of the 4th generation Core "Haswell" family to address the issue, and instead opted to address it in a future revision of the chipset.

A design flaw causes devices connected to Lynx Point's integrated USB 3.0 controller to be disconnected when the system wakes up from S3 (suspend-to-RAM), forcing users to reconnect them. This could mean you'd have to mount your USB 3.0 hard-drives/flash-drives again, although no data is lost. If you're editing files stores on such a storage device, you might have to save your work before the system is put to S3 sleep.
In 2011, Intel launched its 6-series "Cougar Point" core logic that drove its first LGA1155 processors based on the "Sandy Bridge" architecture; with a faulty SATA 3 Gb/s controller, that warranted a general recall and replacement with 6-series Rev 3.0 chipset. This particular issue is classified by Intel as more of an irritant than a major flaw. It remains to be seen how it affects early adoption of the platform.

 

[tweakboy]

Did you try a BIOS update ??? or set all to defaults.. gl

 

[Meekers]

This particular issue is classified by Intel as more of an irritant than a major flaw. It remains to be seen how it affects early adoption of the platform.

My i7 920 has last me this long, it can keep going until a fix is in place.

 

[Idontcare]

If you're editing files stores on such a storage device, you might have to save your work before the system is put to S3 sleep.

I'd consider that to be a critical flaw, not a mere nuisance bug.

 

[386user]

is it just me..or does anyone else not care about this usb bug....

i have never in my 24 years ever used sleep mode

 

[Turbonium]

So it's confirmed?

Rather pathetic, really. But it definitely makes me feel better about pulling the trigger on IB this past week.

 

[ViRGE]

is it just me..or does anyone else not care about this usb bug....

i have never in my 24 years ever used sleep mode

Maybe if you don't have a laptop. Sleep and hibernation are very big deals on portable machines.

 

[386user]

im buying a new haswell ultra anyways

boot times are no longer 45 sec+

 

[frozentundra123456]

I'd consider that to be a critical flaw, not a mere nuisance bug.

I never have trusted sleep/standby modes, and I can't imagine not saving before leaving your work.

That said, it seems hard to imagine how they could let something like this slip by, especially knowing how critical haswell is to the mobile segments they are trying to break into.

 

[Obsoleet]

I was between Haswell and Kaveri for 2 new laptops and a new desktop.. I use USB 3.0 1.5TB external storage drive, it's a great thing for backups/general use to keep around..

this bug has decided the issue, I'm going all-in with Kaveri. Other than the possibility of a Macbook with Haswell (I don't tend to leave my external drive connected to laptops for very long).. but I might go with a Samsung 5 series if they have Kaveri Inside.

 

[frozentundra123456]

I was between Haswell and Kaveri for 2 new laptops and a new desktop.. I use USB 3.0 1.5TB external storage drive, it's a great thing for backups/general use to keep around..

this bug has decided the issue, I'm going all-in with Kaveri. Other than the possibility of a Macbook with Haswell (I don't tend to leave my external drive connected to laptops for very long).. but I might go with a Samsung 5 series if they have Kaveri Inside.

Your choice, but won't there probably be a new stepping of haswell out with the problem corrected before kaveri comes out?

 

[Obsoleet]

I'm not sure, and if it turns out that way I would rethink it.

But it's all about what gives the best iGPU performance per each given APU. I'm happy with the CPU performance of my Q9450 (and my IB i5), but I'd like to get off of discrete GPUs for both my laptops and desktop going forward. It sounds like both Haswell and Kaveri might have GDDR5 or similar dedicated to them.

 

[Vesku]

I certainly wouldn't want to be stuck with USB3 bugged notebook, I have enough wariness with sleep modes as it is. Something to keep a close eye on if considering a Haswell purchase.

 

[Obsoleet]

The only thing that could even remotely convince me to consider a Haswell v1 notebook is a Macbook Pro. Just due to sheer build quality / the trackpad. I agree though, I'd rather wait till the revision or just get a Samsung with AMD or something else.