Us vs. Them

[HomeBrewerDude]

Yeah, this will be a bit long and perhaps a bit unfocused, but this has been bugging me for a while now. Namely, I have noticed that too often, people have been waging flame-wars in a Us vs. Them mentality. I believe there is a thread now, floating around at the top, that argues that half the american population are worthless scum. Yep, its an obvious flame bait. Yet nonetheless, people have entered, drawn lines in the sand and once again missed an oppurtunity to improve the way politics are discussed here at ATOT.

I like this place. I think it is a good medium for us to bring together our amazingly different life experiences and perspectives. This place is a good representation of American ideals. Namely, ATOT is a melting pot if there ever was one.

However, the whole idea of democracy is that of differing opinions, rule by majority, and compromise. We see plenty of differing opinions here. And usually, there is a mojority one way or the other. BUT what we hardly ever see, is compromise. IF compromise is the life-blood of democracy, then this place has been sucked dry a long time ago. The best you can hope for here, is an agreement to disagree.

I would like to suggest that next time you find yourself in a entrenched and bitter flame-war with your arch-nemesis, you take the time to consider what kind of compromise you would be willing to make.

And for all you people who are trolls and regularly practice setting up flame-bait: Shape up or ship out.

 

[jjones]

The best you can hope for here, is an agreement to disagree.

This is true and I don't think it can or should be otherwise.

I'm not really sure what you mean by compromise. Why compromise your ideals or opinions? To what end? I've seen people change their opinions here based upon further information and even *gasp* admit they were wrong. Many times that is not the case but it does happen. What more do you want on an internet message board?

Besides flamewars make for entertaining reading.

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

True, I have seen people change their opinions too. I wasn't making a statement about everybody here, or about every thread here. However, in threads with a political topic, many times you see people polarizing on their beleifs and finding NO MIDDLE GROUND what so ever. Now that is fine and dandy for everyday conversations and social exchanges, but when it comes to politics, we should be expecting our representatives to practice the art of compromise so that we can build consensus and move forward through our problems.

Your question uses the phrase 'compromise your ideals', as if that is a bad thing. It can be, say if you are compromising your ideals so that you can attain more wealth. BUT when 2 people have opposite ideals, how will they ever find a middle ground which they can both live with if they don't both compromise to some degree?

Example: Abortion.

I personally believe women have the right to choice on this topic. I know that many people (many of my family members) think abortion is just flat out immoral and wrong. Compromising is a necessity if we ever hope to live along side each other. I may not believe it right, BUT I would be willing to agree to ban abortions after a certain age (e.g., halfway through 2nd trimester) IF my mom was willing to accept abortions (or at least the right to access) during that length of time.

What bums me out the most, is the idea that many people here (not most, but more than a few) do not realize setting a public policy democratically requires compromise.



Of course, ATOT isn't a democracy, BUT most members live in a democratic country, AND should be able to practice the same methods of compromise as we expect our representatives too.

 

[Kadarin]

Compromise is not something that's necessary (nor even desirable) on ATOT, given that ATOT does not formulate any kind of policy that affects anyone. If the membership of ATOT drafted public law, then yes, compromise would be an integral part of the process.

 

[smp]

This place is a good representation of American ideals. Namely, ATOT is a melting pot if there ever was one.

Umm .. there are also those of us who aren't American and who do not share the same "ideals" as most people on this board. I agree though, I wish the flames were kept to a min. Once the first two people reply the same way, then the rest of the herd jumps on the wagon and once you get some people later on down the line speaking out, you get ridiculous flames. There's plenty of herd mentality to go with the flames you speak of.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

HEY! We can kick thier ass!

(provided we carefully select who "they" are)

 

[CPA]

I am a black and white person, so there is little room for compromise. Sorry, that's just the way I am. I respect someone more if they held their position, rather than flip sides or jump in the middle for the sake of a compromise. Actually, I wish Congress would stick to their guns more often, that way nothing would get passed. I like gridlock.

I also do not consider most negative posts as flames. Yes, I wish they were worded more maturely, but if that is a person's opinion then so be it.

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
Compromise is not something that's necessary (nor even desirable) on ATOT, given that ATOT does not formulate any kind of policy that affects anyone. If the membership of ATOT drafted public law, then yes, compromise would be an integral part of the process.

Your attitude/belief that this forum is seperate and independent of government is exactly what has been bugging me. It is as if some people do not connect what is said here with what they do in their lives. However, given all the heated debates concerning religion, government, education, etc... I hardly believe that people really disassociate between ATOT and real life. No, I think that when you see people here unable to find a middle ground its because they do not really value compromise or democracy. Therefore, they have no idea that the inflexible nature or their debates is a sign of an ailing democracy.

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

Originally posted by: smp
This place is a good representation of American ideals. Namely, ATOT is a melting pot if there ever was one.

Umm .. there are also those of us who aren't American and who do not share the same "ideals" as most people on this board. I agree though, I wish the flames were kept to a min. Once the first two people reply the same way, then the rest of the herd jumps on the wagon and once you get some people later on down the line speaking out, you get ridiculous flames. There's plenty of herd mentality to go with the flames you speak of.

seems that we mostly agree, but I would like to point out that I realize that many here are NOT US citizens. I was simply using to the 'melting pot' metaphor because it captures the idea that people can live side by side in equality despite differences.

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

Originally posted by: CPA
I am a black and white person, so there is little room for compromise. Sorry, that's just the way I am. I respect someone more if they held their position, rather than flip sides or jump in the middle for the sake of a compromise. Actually, I wish Congress would stick to their guns more often, that way nothing would get passed. I like gridlock.

I also do not consider most negative posts as flames. Yes, I wish they were worded more maturely, but if that is a person's opinion then so be it.

I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or not so I will assume you are serious. Why do you like gridlock? How do you propose we get along with each other if we don't give and take?

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: yamahaXS

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
Compromise is not something that's necessary (nor even desirable) on ATOT, given that ATOT does not formulate any kind of policy that affects anyone. If the membership of ATOT drafted public law, then yes, compromise would be an integral part of the process.

Your attitude/belief that this forum is seperate and independent of government is exactly what has been bugging me. It is as if some people do not connect what is said here with what they do in their lives. However, given all the heated debates concerning religion, government, education, etc... I hardly believe that people really disassociate between ATOT and real life. No, I think that when you see people here unable to find a middle ground its because they do not really value compromise or democracy. Therefore, they have no idea that the inflexible nature or their debates is a sign of an ailing democracy.

You're assuming that because you do not see compromise and the search for common ground on ATOT that these traits are not valued by members of ATOT in real life. ATOT is just a forum for airing points of view, and that's all it is. There's no incentive to compromise on anything, and no purpose to serve by doing so, so it's generally not done. Compromise is the process of giving up something so that you can gain something; please tell me where a forum such as ATOT fits in with this. And the process of finding common ground? If there's no reason to, and no benefit to doing so, why would it be done?

And.. Democracy is a form of government with extensive citizen participation. The process of government involves electing representatives, and passing laws, among other things. Please explain how the the inflexibility you see on ATOT relates to democracy..

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: yamahaXS

Originally posted by: CPA
I am a black and white person, so there is little room for compromise. Sorry, that's just the way I am. I respect someone more if they held their position, rather than flip sides or jump in the middle for the sake of a compromise. Actually, I wish Congress would stick to their guns more often, that way nothing would get passed. I like gridlock.

I also do not consider most negative posts as flames. Yes, I wish they were worded more maturely, but if that is a person's opinion then so be it.

I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or not so I will assume you are serious. Why do you like gridlock? How do you propose we get along with each other if we don't give and take?

I am very serious.

Gridlock: The way I look at it the less the politicians do, the less laws that are passed and the less money of mine is spent.

Answer me this, if we are such a democratic country, why do we have more laws on our books than most socialist or communist countries? The answer: too much compromise and nanny-state idealism.

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: CPA

I am very serious.

Gridlock: The way I look at it the less the politicians do, the less laws that are passed and the less money of mine is spent.

Answer me this, if we are such a democratic country, why do we have more laws on our books than most socialist or communist countries? The answer: too much compromise and nanny-state idealism.

I agree with that 100%

 

[jjones]

Of course, ATOT isn't a democracy, BUT most members live in a democratic country, AND should be able to practice the same methods of compromise as we expect our representatives too.

There is no value to compromise on a discussion forum. It's not democracy we're practicing here, it's discussion. A compromise serves a purpose if it benefits the parties involved. What is the value received by either party when they compromise their beliefs during a discussion? Just to achieve the end result of agreeing to a middle ground in a discussion? Why is it necessary to reach a middle ground in any discussion on a public forum that serves no purpose other than to pass the time of day and possibly share your opinions with other people?

I'm not here to pursuade people to my POV. I give my opinion, as little value as that has, and rarely even bother to back it up because it's pointless. This is a message board and I'm communicating with people I don't even know and will never meet in real life. And even in real life, I have my opinion, I value it, but I don't expect other people to share it nor do I try to pursuade anyone to my POV. Likewise, I am not easily influenced by other people's opinions.

I fail to find where democracy and compromise should enter into the picture during a discussion or sharing of opinions. When something of value needs to be accomplished, compromise is always a consideration. But changing beliefs, opinions and POV's when nothing is at stake is a useless exercise and probably will ultimately weaken your character when continually done for no purpose.

 

[Booster]

Us vs. Them

To me it's more like me vs. World. I think it would have been so much better if people would just relax and stop these relegious and political and cultural flame wars.

 

[nord1899]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: yamahaXS

Originally posted by: CPA
I am a black and white person, so there is little room for compromise. Sorry, that's just the way I am. I respect someone more if they held their position, rather than flip sides or jump in the middle for the sake of a compromise. Actually, I wish Congress would stick to their guns more often, that way nothing would get passed. I like gridlock.

I also do not consider most negative posts as flames. Yes, I wish they were worded more maturely, but if that is a person's opinion then so be it.

I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or not so I will assume you are serious. Why do you like gridlock? How do you propose we get along with each other if we don't give and take?

I am very serious.

Gridlock: The way I look at it the less the politicians do, the less laws that are passed and the less money of mine is spent.

Answer me this, if we are such a democratic country, why do we have more laws on our books than most socialist or communist countries? The answer: too much compromise and nanny-state idealism.

Another answer to your question:
Politicians feel that if they do not create new laws or modify existing ones, then they are not doing their jobs. Also, it is one way for them to get their name in the history books.

Though it is probably not quite so cut and dry as either of our answers.

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

Very interesting replies...all of them. Thanks for the input.

I think my hangup has to do with a perception that i have. Namely I perceive that the way people discuss things here reflects the way they believe problems should be solved (in general). I agree with those of you who have suggested that the government is currently not performing well. Once reason for this (IMO), is that we are not valueing the correct mindset in our politicians. Many of you think that they compromise too much. I still think they don't compromise enough. Rather, we see party lines drawn in the sand so many times that essentially the parties box themselves in and leave themselves no where to go.

thanks again.

 

[Fausto]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: yamahaXS

Originally posted by: CPA
I am a black and white person, so there is little room for compromise. Sorry, that's just the way I am. I respect someone more if they held their position, rather than flip sides or jump in the middle for the sake of a compromise. Actually, I wish Congress would stick to their guns more often, that way nothing would get passed. I like gridlock.

I also do not consider most negative posts as flames. Yes, I wish they were worded more maturely, but if that is a person's opinion then so be it.

I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or not so I will assume you are serious. Why do you like gridlock? How do you propose we get along with each other if we don't give and take?

I am very serious.

Gridlock: The way I look at it the less the politicians do, the less laws that are passed and the less money of mine is spent.

Answer me this, if we are such a democratic country, why do we have more laws on our books than most socialist or communist countries? The answer: too much compromise and nanny-state idealism.

Right, but if you and others are dissatisfied with the current laws on the books, it will require further legislation to remove or amend them. Gridlock only means we stay stuck where we are right now, and I think most of us would agree that's not really a good thing. If anything, Joe Average Citizen needs to be more involved in politics beyond just voting. We vote these jokers into office and then they are pretty much free to run willy-nilly because we just don't pay attention. If citizens are more involved, their elected officials are inherently more accountable because we're actually paying attention......kinda like lobbying on a grand scale. This is why I'm as involved as I can be, particularly with regard to local politics since they're what affects me the most on a day-to-day basis.

And yeah, it gets on my nerves when those on either side of the political fence have an unwavering condemnation of those on the other side and blame them for all that is bad in the world. Both sides are dirty (and will continue to be so as long as money and political power are synonymous), but both sides get it right sometimes as well.