US Superpower Status Damaged

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7645743.stm

The financial crisis is likely to diminish the status of the United States as the world's only superpower.

On the practical level, the US is already stretched militarily, in Afghanistan and Iraq, and is now stretched financially.

On the philosophical level, it will be harder for it to argue in favour of its free market ideas, if its own markets have collapsed.

Pivotal moment?

Some see this as a pivotal moment.

The political philosopher John Gray, who recently retired as a professor at the London School of Economics, wrote in the London paper The Observer: "Here is a historic geopolitical shift, in which the balance of power in the world is being altered irrevocably.

"The era of American global leadership, reaching back to the Second World War, is over... The American free-market creed has self-destructed while countries that retained overall control of markets have been vindicated."

"In a change as far-reaching in its implications as the fall of the Soviet Union, an entire model of government and the economy has collapsed.

"How symbolic that Chinese astronauts take a spacewalk while the US Treasury Secretary is on his knees."

No apocalypse now

Not all would agree that an American apocalypse has arrived. After all, the system has been tested before.

In 1987 the Dow Jones share index fell by more than 20% in one day. In 2000, the dot-com bubble burst. Yet both times, the US picked itself up, as it did post Vietnam.

Prof Gray's comments certainly did not impress one of the more hawkish figures who served in the Bush administration, the former UN ambassador John Bolton.

When I put them to him, he replied only: "If Professor Gray believes this, can he assure us that he is selling his US assets short?

"If so, where is he placing his money instead? And if he has no US assets, why should we be paying any attention to him?"

Nevertheless, it does seem that the concept of the single superpower left bestriding the world after the collapse of communism (and the supposed end of history) is no longer valid.

Multi-polar world

Even leading neo-conservative thinkers accept that a more multi-polar world is emerging, though one in which they want the American position to be the leading one.

Robert Kagan, co-founder in 1997 of the "Project for the New American Century" that called for "American global leadership", wrote in Foreign Affairs magazine this autumn: "Those who today proclaim that the United States is in decline often imagine a past in which the world danced to an Olympian America's tune. That is an illusion.

"The world today looks more like that of the 19th Century than like that of the late 20th.

"Those who imagine this is good news should recall that the 19th Century order did not end as well as the Cold War did."

"To avoid such a fate, the United States and other democratic nations will need to take a more enlightened and generous view of their interests than they did even during the Cold War. The United States, as the strongest democracy, should not oppose but welcome a world of pooled and diminished national sovereignty.

"At the same time, the democracies of Asia and Europe need to rediscover that progress toward this more perfect liberal order depends not only on law and popular will but also on powerful nations that can support and defend it."

New scepticism

The director of a leading British think-tank Chatham House, Dr Robin Niblett, who has worked on both sides of the Atlantic, remarked that, at a recent conference he attended in Berlin, an American who called for continued US leadership was met with a new scepticism.

"The US is seen as declining relatively and there has been an enormous acceleration in this perfect storm of perception in the waning days of the Bush administration. The rise of new powers, the increase in oil wealth among some countries and the spread of economic power around the world adds to this," he said.

"But we must separate the immediate moment from the structural. There is no doubt that President Bush has created some of his own problems. The overstretch of military power and the economic crisis can be laid at the door of the administration.

"Its tax cuts were not matched by the hammer of spending cuts. The combined effect of events like the failures in Iraq, the difficulties in Afghanistan, the thumbing of its nose by Russia in Georgia and elsewhere, all these lead to a sense of an end of an era.

The longer term

Dr Niblett argues that we should wait a bit before coming to a judgment and that structurally the United States is still strong.

"America is still immensely attractive to skilled immigrants and is still capable of producing a Microsoft or a Google," he went on.

"Even its debt can be overcome. It has enormous resilience economically at a local and entrepreneurial level.

"And one must ask, decline relative to who? China is in a desperate race for growth to feed its population and avert unrest in 15 to 20 years. Russia is not exactly a paper tiger but it is stretching its own limits with a new strategy built on a flimsy base. India has huge internal contradictions. Europe has usually proved unable to jump out of the doldrums as dynamically as the US.

"But the US must regain its financial footing and the extent to which it does so will also determine its military capacity. If it has less money, it will have fewer forces."

With the US presidential election looming, it will be worth returning to this subject in a year's time to see how the world, and the American place in it, looks then.

Although I don't think that Capitalism has collapsed, this economic crisis has highlighted the vulnerabilities in the market. The market is soley based on efficiency, law abiding assumptions, and the hope that the market will regulate itself by weeding out its inefficiencies.

This crisis happened when companies work around laws or when laws are not enforced. Today's market does not have to be efficient to make money, and has little motivation not to delay corrections in the market. Speculation manipulates perceived market value and demand of not only stocks, but of oil and other commodities. In this day and time, big corporations are not looking to win in the market, they are trying to be above the market. They want to turn an efficient market into an inefficient market where they have legal monopolies and only have a farce of insignificant competition (ie: Windows OS).

Without the efficient operation of Capitalism, US power will need to step onto a new Multi-polar world stage where it is no longer its director. It must now play a role as only one of the stars on the stage.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
It's amazing how many people were right when they screamed that Bush was harming the U.S. with his economic policies.
And how wrong the Bush defenders on this forum were when they blindly followed Bush down his road to economic destruction.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: techs
It's amazing how many people were right when they screamed that Bush was harming the U.S. with his economic policies.
And how wrong the Bush defenders on this forum were when they blindly followed Bush down his road to economic destruction.
It's also amazing how many stupid fucking people there are who believe this is all GWB's fault...
 

jorken

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,143
3
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Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: techs
It's amazing how many people were right when they screamed that Bush was harming the U.S. with his economic policies.
And how wrong the Bush defenders on this forum were when they blindly followed Bush down his road to economic destruction.
It's also amazing how many stupid fucking people there are who believe this is all GWB's fault...

It's also amazing how much more important it is to figure out who's fault it is rather then fixing the fucking problem!
 

badnewcastle

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
1,016
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0
Originally posted by: jorken
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: techs
It's amazing how many people were right when they screamed that Bush was harming the U.S. with his economic policies.
And how wrong the Bush defenders on this forum were when they blindly followed Bush down his road to economic destruction.
It's also amazing how many stupid fucking people there are who believe this is all GWB's fault...

It's also amazing how much more important it is to figure out who's fault it is rather then fixing the fucking problem!

:thumbsup:
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,486
2,363
136
Originally posted by: badnewcastle
Originally posted by: jorken
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: techs
It's amazing how many people were right when they screamed that Bush was harming the U.S. with his economic policies.
And how wrong the Bush defenders on this forum were when they blindly followed Bush down his road to economic destruction.
It's also amazing how many stupid fucking people there are who believe this is all GWB's fault...

It's also amazing how much more important it is to figure out who's fault it is rather then fixing the fucking problem!

:thumbsup:

Problem with that statement is that while you can fix the problem, without punishing those responsible you're inviting the problem to happen again and again and again.
 

badnewcastle

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
1,016
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BTW... the markets haven't collapsed and we aren't even in a recession yet!!! It's pulling through the tough times that makes America great and we will pull through this. It will likely put us into a recession but I don't think it has the power stretch it into a depression.

Remember in order to be in a recession, the US GDP needs to shrink for 2 quarters in a row and this hasn't happened yet.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
This is a repost in some nature, but I agree. The US in the past 8 years has lost a great deal of prominence. It is losing ground on being the super power. It still is--and by a great deal--and the US is still probably the best country to live in--but it's losing ground quickly. It is increasingly disliked if not hated by other nations and peoples and I think people in general feel less secure now than 8 years ago (they should; the country is less secure). Nothing good has really happened in this period to help the nation beyond where it was.
Remember in order to be in a recession, the US GDP needs to shrink for 2 quarters in a row and this hasn't happened yet.
GDP doesn't mean much in the face of inflation, which has been bad lately and is very likely to get worse if the mint keeps printing cash, not to mention the habitual and huge spend and borrow budgets do nothing but weaken the dollar further. The US has a huge trade deficit and a chronic and severe inability to operate even close to a surplus. This is not good, not good at all.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: techs
It's amazing how many people were right when they screamed that Bush was harming the U.S. with his economic policies.

And how wrong the Bush defenders on this forum were when they blindly followed Bush down his road to economic destruction.

It's also amazing how many stupid fucking people there are who believe this is all GWB's fault...

because it's all Bill Clinton's fault? :confused:
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
"capitalism" means different things to different people and few will actually come out against it, so its pretty meaningless and useless for you or anyone else to pretend as if there is a some disagreement around it.

Now, if you're talking about flavours of capitalism, that's different - Chinese capitalism is different from Nordic, which is different from southern european, which is different from American etc. And certainly, I think this crisis will lead to a huge loss of influence for American laissez faire capitalism abroad. I mean, the "Washington Consensus" has been losing influence for many years and now it'll probably be discarded and ignored as a failed ideology.
 

badnewcastle

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
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All I'm saying is that time and time again the US has found itself in tough times and we always find a way out. I don't get all the negativity that's all.
 

badnewcastle

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: techs
It's amazing how many people were right when they screamed that Bush was harming the U.S. with his economic policies.

And how wrong the Bush defenders on this forum were when they blindly followed Bush down his road to economic destruction.

It's also amazing how many stupid fucking people there are who believe this is all GWB's fault...

because it's all Bill Clinton's fault? :confused:

Not all. But he surely didn't help avoid it.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Germany's SPIEGEL is running a similar article...

I am starting to think that EU can't wait for the USA to fail for some reason, despite the fact that if it does, it will pull the EU down with it.
Europe has a chip on its shoulder when it comes to the US.

They are resentful of the fact that we are the biggest kid on the block and can do anything we want. Look at history, for 400 years Europe ruled the world. Then in the 20th century the US comes along and displaces Europe in a big way.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: jorken
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: techs
It's amazing how many people were right when they screamed that Bush was harming the U.S. with his economic policies.
And how wrong the Bush defenders on this forum were when they blindly followed Bush down his road to economic destruction.
It's also amazing how many stupid fucking people there are who believe this is all GWB's fault...

It's also amazing how much more important it is to figure out who's fault it is rather then fixing the fucking problem!

no shit.. The Blame Game has become America's most popular sport. There are so many people focused on finding someone else to blame for everything that nobody is left to address the issues themselves.

it's sickening. :|

See dwcowen's last post as Exhibit A...
 

retrospooty

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2002
2,031
74
86
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: techs
It's amazing how many people were right when they screamed that Bush was harming the U.S. with his economic policies.
And how wrong the Bush defenders on this forum were when they blindly followed Bush down his road to economic destruction.
It's also amazing how many stupid fucking people there are who believe this is all GWB's fault...

As the leader of this nation for the past 8 years... and the starting point of the economic policies that got us here, yes. He is not 100% responsible, but is the largest factor. No amount of spin from either side will change that fact.

The point of the blaming to to make sure we are clear on how we got here so we elect leaders that wont do it again. We nee to be clear on that, and there is no reason why we cant fix blame at the same time as we fix it. Its called multitasking, and it will be a requirement of the next administration. they will need to deal with Iraq, an out of control budget, and the troubled economy.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: retrospooty
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: techs
It's amazing how many people were right when they screamed that Bush was harming the U.S. with his economic policies.
And how wrong the Bush defenders on this forum were when they blindly followed Bush down his road to economic destruction.
It's also amazing how many stupid fucking people there are who believe this is all GWB's fault...

As the leader of this nation for the past 8 years... and the starting point of the economic policies that got us here, yes. He is not 100% responsible, but is the largest factor. No amount of spin from either side will change that fact.

You apparently know very little about the market and the variables that brought on the current crisis -- very few of which are related to GWB policies specifically.

But hey, if blaming him, or Clinton, or any other partisan target, makes it so that you can sleep better at night, then go for it... who are we to interfere with your precious sleep patterns?! :roll:
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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besides, if anyone one person is to blame it's alan greenspan and the ridiculously low interest rates he pushed starting in 1998.
 

TechBoyJK

Lifer
Oct 17, 2002
16,699
60
91
Originally posted by: ElFenix
besides, if anyone one person it so blame it's alan greenspan and the ridiculously low interest rates he pushed starting in 1998.

Not dissing this post.. just replying

It amazes me how everyone points the finger at Bush. That's hardly the case. His administration is one component of our government. He has policies, but Congress also MAKES LAWS.

From my distant perspective, relatively uneducated perspective, my radar tells me to point the blame at Congress. Yea, be a little upset at Bush admins, but I'm not even clear why I should even blame them. Iraq war? Sure it trained a ton from our treasury, but these collapses in the financial sector aren't related much.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,498
9,719
136
Originally posted by: ElFenix
besides, if anyone one person it so blame it's alan greenspan and the ridiculously low interest rates he pushed starting in 1998.

:thumbsup:
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
I think things are being stretched in that article - especially with a claim like the symbolic achievement of China's space ambitions are compared with the US financial situation. Apples to Oranges anyone? Let us look at the financial condition of both countries (which sucks for the entire globe; you know the US carries an incredible amount of weight when Asian markets rise and fall with discussions on a bailout in the US), or let us look at something like space travel for both countries (in which Cassini has been snapping photos of SATURN and its moons, and we have New Horizons approaching Pluto at over 10 MILES/second).

This is clearly a multi polar world, but it will be one that the US still has a much larger chunk of the pie than the others (and this is coming from a person who thinks our influence in this world IS too much for our own good). What is going on right now is a huge problem that cannot be underestimated, but in no way is everyone simply zipping past us, leaving us in the dust.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: fleshconsumed
Originally posted by: badnewcastle
Originally posted by: jorken
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: techs
It's amazing how many people were right when they screamed that Bush was harming the U.S. with his economic policies.
And how wrong the Bush defenders on this forum were when they blindly followed Bush down his road to economic destruction.
It's also amazing how many stupid fucking people there are who believe this is all GWB's fault...

It's also amazing how much more important it is to figure out who's fault it is rather then fixing the fucking problem!

:thumbsup:

Problem with that statement is that while you can fix the problem, without punishing those responsible you're inviting the problem to happen again and again and again.

Because no one policy or action by whomever cam directly be blamed without a doubt, except by maybe us partisan hacks, the "punishment" will never come. Jorken is right though. It really DOESNT matter who did it (lol) but rather how to fix it. All this energy wasted on blah blah Bush this Bush that does NOTHING for ANYONE.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: badnewcastle
BTW... the markets haven't collapsed and we aren't even in a recession yet!!! It's pulling through the tough times that makes America great and we will pull through this. It will likely put us into a recession but I don't think it has the power stretch it into a depression.

Remember in order to be in a recession, the US GDP needs to shrink for 2 quarters in a row and this hasn't happened yet.

Not only that, unemployment is still low, inflation is low, and prime rate is low. This is a problem we've never had before, and no one knows for sure how to fiz it. Period. We can all find "expert" opinions (opinion being the key word) on how and why, but no one really knows. There isnt a model.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: badnewcastle
All I'm saying is that time and time again the US has found itself in tough times and we always find a way out. I don't get all the negativity that's all.

:beer: