US should help Syria rebels, GOP's John McCain and Lindsey Graham say

[Ausm]

Most, if not all, military historians I have read agree that the man portable Stinger missile systems that the CIA provided the Mujihadeen was the most important factor in turning the war and forcing the Soviets to turn tail.

I am not suggesting anything in regards to Syria at this point, just responding to your comment in regards to the USSR/Afghanistan conflict and our involvement.

I have read information backing this too but also read books that have compelling arguments on the contrary. I tend to side with the contrary opinions.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Isn't that subjective? A lot of the times when America has interfered in other countries times of strife for the "good of the people" we actually turned out to be the villains in the eyes of the local people.

I am not insinuating this would be the case all the time but looking back in recent history it seems to be the norm in my opinion.

You still need to differentiate between motives and means. I know about what we have done, I'm talking about what we might yet accomplish. Do I relish the idea that people will die in what we would help do? No, but if the people think it is good to fight for their freedom of death at any time? I would do what I could to help them help themselves.

You mention subjective good. I want you to envision yourself standing in front of a child clinging to the body of her dead parent. She looks at you and asks was there nothing which might have stopped this? Was this a good thing? Imagine you telling her that good is subjective. I wager you could not.

The world is not so simple that one can look at the military excesses of the past as justification to not use a paltry portion of that existing power to help others prevent future atrocities by those in power, at least I cannot.

 

[davmat787]

I have read information backing this too but also read books that have compelling arguments on the contrary. I tend to side with the contrary opinions.

And what was the reasoning behind these contrary opinions?

The Stinger allowed the mujihadeen to battle the USSR's air superiority. Prior to the Stinger, the Soviets owned the air. IIRC, the biggest problem was Mil-24-HIND helicopters that were really gunships, and could also deliver troops and some cargo. The HIND decimated the Mujihadeen with no worry about being shot down. Once the USSR started losing helicopters and aircraft, the Mujihadeen gained the ability to move more freely, and thus a ton of confidence too.

Just look at the firepower on this thing, and imagine what it must have been like before the Stingers, and after.

 

[Ausm]

And what was the reasoning behind these contrary opinions?

The Stinger allowed the mujihadeen to battle the USSR's air superiority. Prior to the Stinger, the Soviets owned the air. IIRC, the biggest problem was Mil-24-HIND helicopters that were really gunships, and could also deliver troops and some cargo. The HIND decimated the Mujihadeen with no worry about being shot down. Once the USSR started losing helicopters and aircraft, the Mujihadeen gained the ability to move more freely, and thus a ton of confidence too.

Just look at the firepower on this thing, and imagine what it must have been like before the Stingers, and after.

You mean arming the same tribes that were killing Americans when we invaded the Afghanistan in the 2000's?

 

[Ausm]

You still need to differentiate between motives and means. I know about what we have done, I'm talking about what we might yet accomplish. Do I relish the idea that people will die in what we would help do? No, but if the people think it is good to fight for their freedom of death at any time? I would do what I could to help them help themselves.

You mention subjective good. I want you to envision yourself standing in front of a child clinging to the body of her dead parent. She looks at you and asks was there nothing which might have stopped this? Was this a good thing? Imagine you telling her that good is subjective. I wager you could not.

The world is not so simple that one can look at the military excesses of the past as justification to not use a paltry portion of that existing power to help others prevent future atrocities by those in power, at least I cannot.

I am not questioning your thought process but after the Bush/Cheney War is a Biz debacle, I am very tepid in expending any more Blood or treasure in the near future.

Personally I am sick of War and am having a hard time justifying the use of force at this juncture.

 

[davmat787]

You mean arming the same tribes that were killing Americans when we invaded the Afghanistan in the 2000's?

I am referring to the contrary opinions you cited in your post #51, pasted below for your convenience. I am asking what the reasoning was behind these "compelling arguments to the contrary", because I can't imagine what else could be considered the impetus behind the turning of that war.

I have read information backing this too but also read books that have compelling arguments on the contrary. I tend to side with the contrary opinions.

 

[ElFenix]

I opposed our support of those against Khaddafy because he was mostly in our 'camp' while his opposition had many AQ.


Fern

i read a lot of updates about libya from FP and nyt and didn't see that

 

[Fern]

i read a lot of updates about libya from FP and nyt and didn't see that

Some of the insurgent commanders/officers were well known (former) AQ who fought in Iraq etc.

The region in Libya where the insurgency began had the highest per capita AQ of all countries who 'sent' fighters to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Fern

 

[fskimospy]

Some of the insurgent commanders/officers were well known (former) AQ who fought in Iraq etc.

The region in Libya were the insurgency began had the highest per capita AQ of all countries who 'sent' fighters to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Fern

The ties of Libyan groups to Al-Qaeda are not so simple as that. Generally most Libyan groups have ties to Al-Qaeda in the Maghreb, which is quite a bit different than most other Al-Qaeda groups. It is mostly concerned with the overthrow of the Algerian government as well as acting as what is almost an organized criminal organization instead of what we generally think of as Al-Qaeda.

The idea that Libya has been taken over by Al-Qaeda people or even a group with significant ties to it doesn't really represent reality.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I am not questioning your thought process but after the Bush/Cheney War is a Biz debacle, I am very tepid in expending any more Blood or treasure in the near future.

Personally I am sick of War and am having a hard time justifying the use of force at this juncture.

I'm advocating support, not boots on the ground. It is prudent to question what one means by "help" and there's no argument against that from me, but if the opportunity to assist as I've suggested I say we should do so. There are alternatives to past errors.

 

[Fern]

So your banking on supplying weapon support through "3rd parties" wouldn't cost tax payers even more money and possibly lead to another clusterfuck in the sand?....ooooooK.

You mean arming the same tribes that were killing Americans when we invaded the Afghanistan in the 2000's?

I won't re-quote your OP.

But you mention "war" and then seem to generally go on with conflating Iraq & Afghanistan with providing weapons.

I see no similarity. Boots on the ground and nation rebuilding is so far apart from supplying weapons its absurd.

H3ll, seems to me a bunch of our foreign aid is just supplying weapons anyway.

I.e., I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Fern

 

[Ausm]

I won't re-quote your OP.

But you mention "war" and then seem to generally go on with conflating Iraq & Afghanistan with providing weapons.

I see no similarity. Boots on the ground and nation rebuilding is so far apart from supplying weapons its absurd.

H3ll, seems to me a bunch of our foreign aid is just supplying weapons anyway.

I.e., I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Fern

I see a possible correlation go back and study the history of the our involvement in the Vietnam War for starters.It's commonly referred to as "Escalation".

 

[Fern]

I see a possible correlation go back and study the history of the our involvement in the Vietnam War for starters.It's commonly referred to as "Escalation".

So now you're ready to compare a suggestion to provide arms to Vietnam?

We provide arms all the time without it escalating to a Vietnam level conflict.

I'll guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the possible scope of of our involvement/escalation if we provide arms.

Fern

 

[boochi]

Ausm, you feel that America deserved what happened to it on 911. That is why you are a piece of shit. Have a nice day.

 

[davmat787]

I see a possible correlation go back and study the history of the our involvement in the Vietnam War for starters.It's commonly referred to as "Escalation".

I know we should learn from history and all that stuff, but why can't each conflict, or potential conflict, stand on its own merits or fall on the lack of? Why do we need to always compare and try to make an equation with a solution for all conflicts? You can't, they and the problems that created them are all different.

Anyway Ausm, I answered your question in post #56 and I await your answer. Thanks.

 

[Ausm]

So now you're ready to compare a suggestion to provide arms to Vietnam?

We provide arms all the time without it escalating to a Vietnam level conflict.

I'll guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the possible scope of of our involvement/escalation if we provide arms.

Fern

You said: I see no similarity. Boots on the ground and nation rebuilding is so far apart from supplying weapons its absurd.

When you take Vietnam into consideration then you comment is not correct.

 

[Ausm]

I know we should learn from history and all that stuff, but why can't each conflict, or potential conflict, stand on its own merits or fall on the lack of? Why do we need to always compare and try to make an equation with a solution for all conflicts? You can't, they and the problems that created them are all different.

Anyway Ausm, I answered your question in post #56 and I await your answer. Thanks.

Read the following books like I did and see what conclusion you come to.

http://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Wars-Af...?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1329909382&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Wars-Hi...?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1329909382&sr=1-6

http://www.amazon.com/American-War-...s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1329909382&sr=1-12

 

[Ausm]

Ausm, you feel that America deserved what happened to it on 911. That is why you are a piece of shit. Have a nice day.

LOLWUT??? X 10 to the 100th power .....Please pick up your "jump to a conclusion mat" and crap on someone else's thread.