US National Healthcare Bill

[fskimospy]

This is nothing short of probably the biggest failure by a president in modern history.

Were you born yesterday?

 

[Ausm]

Ding dong single payer is dead..

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_overhaul

some good news today at least

Your're uninformed and your name is quite appropriate.

 

[PJABBER]

Why is this legislation being discussed in such secrecy and why hasn't it been made available for review by the entire Senate and the public?

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell is mighty pissed off by the lack of bi-partisan negotiation, by the secrecy and by a schedule that precludes evaluation, consideration and debate.

Completely Reckless, Completely Irresponsible

The Office of Senator Mitch McConnell

Thursday, December 17, 2009

‘And here’s the most outrageous part: at the end of this rush, they want us to vote on a bill that no one outside the Majority Leader’s conference room has even seen. That’s right. The final bill we’ll vote on isn’t even the one we’ve had on the floor. It’s the deal Democrat leaders have been trying to work out in private’

WASHINGTON, D.C. - U.S. Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell made the following remarks on the Senate floor Thursday regarding the importance of getting it right on health care reform:

“Senators on both sides acknowledge that the health care bill we’re considering is among the most significant pieces of legislation any of us will ever consider.

“So it stands to reason that we’d devote significant time and attention to it.

“Indeed, some would argue that we should spend more time and attention on this bill than most — if not every — previous bill we’ve considered.

“The Majority disagrees.

“Why? Because this bill has become a political nightmare for them.

“They know Americans overwhelmingly oppose it, so they want to get it over with.

“Americans are already outraged at the fact that Democrat leaders took their eyes off the ball. Rushing the process on a partisan line makes the situation even worse.

“Americans were told the purpose of reform was to reduce the cost of health care.

“Instead, Democrat leaders produced a $2.5 trillion, 2,074-page monstrosity that vastly expands government, raises taxes, raises premiums, and wrecks Medicare.

“And they want to rush this bill through by Christmas — one of the most significant, far-reaching pieces of legislation in U.S. history. They want to rush it.

“And here’s the most outrageous part: at the end of this rush, they want us to vote on a bill that no one outside the Majority Leader’s conference room has even seen.

“That’s right. The final bill we’ll vote on isn’t even the one we’ve had on the floor. It’s the deal Democrat leaders have been trying to work out in private.

“That’s what they intend to bring to the floor and force a vote on before Christmas.

“So this entire process is essentially a charade.

“But let’s just compare the process so far with previous legislation for some perspective. Here’s a snapshot of what we’ve done and where we stand:

• The Majority Leader intends to bring this debate to a close as early as this weekend — four days from now, on this $2.5 trillion dollar mistake

• No American who hasn’t been invited into the Majority Leader’s conference room knows what will be in that bill

• This bill has been the pending business of the Senate since the last week of November — less than four weeks ago.

• We started the amendment process two weeks ago.

• We’ve had 21 amendments and motions — less than two a day.

“Now let’s look at how the Senate has dealt with previous legislation.

“No Child Left Behind (2001):

• 21 session days or 7 weeks.

• Roll Call votes: 44

• Number of Amendments offered: 157

“9/11 Commission/Homeland Security Act (2002):

• 19 session days over 7 weeks.

• Roll Call votes: 20

• Number of Amendments offered: 30

“Energy Bill (2002):

• 21 session days over 8 weeks

• Number of Roll Call votes: 36

• Number of Amendments offered: 158

“This isn’t an energy bill. This is an attempt by a majority to take over one sixth of the U.S. economy — to vastly expand the reach and the role of government into the health care decisions of every single American — and they want to be done after one substantive amendment. This is absolutely inexcusable.

“I think Senator Snowe put it best on Tuesday:

‘Given the enormity and complexity,’ she said, ‘I don’t see anything magical about the Christmas deadline if this bill is going to become law in 2014.’

“And I think Senator Snowe’s comments on a lack of bipartisanship at the outset of this debate are also right on point.

“Here’s what she said in late November:

‘I am truly disappointed we are commencing our historic debate on one of the most significant and pressing domestic issues of our time with a process that has forestalled our ability to arrive at broader agreement on some of the most crucial elements of health care reform. The bottom line is, the most consequential health care legislation in the history of our country and the reordering of $33 trillion in health care spending over the coming decade shouldn’t be determined by one vote-margin strategies – surely we can and must do better.’

“The only conceivable justification for rushing this bill is the overwhelming opposition of the American people. Democrats know that the longer Americans see this bill the less they like it. Here’s the latest from Pew. It came out just yesterday.

“A majority (58 percent) of those who have heard a lot about the bills oppose them while only 32 percent favor them.”

“There is no justification for this blind rush — except a political one, and that’s not good enough for the American people.

“And there’s no justification for forcing the Senate to vote on a bill none of us has seen.

“Americans already oppose this bill. The process is just as bad.

“It’s completely reckless, completely irresponsible.”

 

[fskimospy]

At least PJABBER has stopped quoting fringe right wing sources and has gone straight to just cutting and pasting GOP press releases. Cut out the middle man!

(oh and interestingly enough I didn't hear our good friend Mitch talking about 1 vote margins with Medicare part D, that has a cost of $1.2 trillion. I'm sure he just forgot.)

 

[ElFenix]

And when people do count that, it STILL has a significantly lower overhead.

and then it even more significantly outspends the euro models (which spend 2x what singapore does).

http://www.cahi.org/cahi_contents/resources/pdf/CAHIMedicareTechnicalPaper.pdf

It's not the last word on the subject or anything, but they have made an effort to put just those costs that you talk about in there, and it still comes out noticeably lower.

there is a companion paper to that published by cahi on 1/10/2006 by merrill matthews.

Oh you mean like Car Insurance? State law in all 50 states require you to BUY INTO some sort of private auto insurance.

and boy am i glad for that rule cuz otherwise those guys that couldn't tie down their sheet metal they were carrying which flew off and hit me might have just driven off and i'd have been out of pocket!

oh wait

 

[Patranus]

Oh you mean like Car Insurance? State law in all 50 states require you to BUY INTO some sort of private auto insurance.

First of all those are STATE laws not FEDERAL laws.
The fact of the matter is that these laws at a federal level require you to buy insurance to be a "citizen in good standing" with the federal government.

You have a choice to use a car and if you make that choice you need to have insurance........think about it for a second.

 

[ShawnD1]

I especially like the part where the Liberals and Obama try to blame the GOP when the Democrats have a super majority in the senate and there is nothing the GOP can do to stop this legislation.

Very true. As a few political commentators have pointed out, Bush got all kinds of weird shit passed and he didn't have as much support as Obama. If these plans are not getting passed, it's either because the democrats in charge right now are completely incompetent or because they never intended to reform healthcare and it was just a big lie to get elected. Both seem reasonable at this point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDywvwTzkQE

 

[werepossum]

Very true. As a few political commentators have pointed out, Bush got all kinds of weird shit passed and he didn't have as much support as Obama. If these plans are not getting passed, it's either because the democrats in charge right now are completely incompetent or because they never intended to reform healthcare and it was just a big lie to get elected. Both seem reasonable at this point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDywvwTzkQE

There's a third possibility, that Democrats honestly believed their vision of health care reform would be popular, or at least that they could pass it quickly enough that most people would have no idea what was going on. They may even have honestly believed that people would oppose it, but that if they could pass it quickly enough they could stand the political heat and that it would be the best thing for people even if only the more intelligent political class can see it.

They may have also been misled by their polling. If you ask about "reform", that allows each person to imagine the changes we or she would like to make rather than the changes you want to make. But for whatever reason the Democrats are not willing to take the political heat and hit to pass the liberal dream. Even with a super majority of sixty Senators, you have no room for anyone to flinch.

 

[Modelworks]

They just said they have added 400 pages that nobody has read and that by the time they get to read them it will probably be a couple hours before they vote.

Yep, this is a really good idea. Wonder if I could slip in my own pages to get some of that money for myself, might as well all the politicians are.

I could have saved them all the trouble of writing all that, they could have just printed this on one page:

Right to health care
This right is ensured by free, qualified medical care provided by state health institutions; by extension of the network of therapeutic and health-building institutions; by the development and improvement of safety and hygiene in industry; by carrying out broad prophylactic measures; by measures to improve the environment; by special care for the health of the rising generation, including prohibition of child labour, excluding the work done by children as part of the school curriculum; and by developing research to prevent and reduce the incidence of disease and ensure citizens a long and active life.

From the former soviet Constitution.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Right now the GOP, DINO's ,Big Pharma, and the Insurance monopolies are winning.

This, friends, is exactly why nothing gets done by either of the two assinine and incompetent parties in Washington. Both seem to share Ausm's viewpoint of "It is us against them!" instead of working together to do what is right.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled "blamestorming."

 

[Patranus]

They just said they have added 400 pages that nobody has read and that by the time they get to read them it will probably be a couple hours before they vote.

Word on the street is no one has read it outside of a few select Senators who were invited into Reids office.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Obama had a chance to govern from the center, unite the country, and pass meaningful health care reform on a bipartisan basis.

Instead he left the job to the whack job liberals like Nancy Pelosi who tried to pushed something on the American people they simply didn't want.

There are several things that both sides (at least the Democrats claim to) support such as deregulation (portability). There is no reason why these reforms shouldn't be passed.
(but we all know the Liberals want UHC or nothing so nothing will change)

I especially like the part where the Liberals and Obama try to blame the GOP when the Democrats have a super majority in the senate and there is nothing the GOP can do to stop this legislation.
(I mean they did give a 300 million dollar bribe to the senator from NO for her vote...)

This is nothing short of probably the biggest failure by a president in modern history.

Exactly. I think I need to utilize the search function of the forums and find the posts of the Obama cheerleaders who "guaranteed" this would be passed before the August break....then promised it would be passed by Thanksgiving....and then guaranteed it would be passed by the end of the year and we would have to "live with it."

I'm sure our good friends would normally chime in and admit who they are, but I'm sure they can't due to their mouths being full of crow.

 

[werepossum]

Exactly. I think I need to utilize the search function of the forums and find the posts of the Obama cheerleaders who "guaranteed" this would be passed before the August break....then promised it would be passed by Thanksgiving....and then guaranteed it would be passed by the end of the year and we would have to "live with it."

I'm sure our good friends would normally chime in and admit who they are, but I'm sure they can't due to their mouths being full of crow.

LOL Crow - the other yellow meat.

Something called health care reform will be passed before the 2010 elections. Probably something very expensive and disruptive, packed with fail and complete with new taxes and fees.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

LOL Crow - the other yellow meat.

Something called health care reform will be passed before the 2010 elections. Probably something very expensive and disruptive, packed with fail and complete with new taxes and fees.

You are right -- SOMETHING has to be done. People like TheSkinsFan and I have been arguing on here for months that limited, reasonable reform can accomplish what needs to be done. Several months ago, CNN posted a study by PWC that showed of the 2.2 trillion we spend per year on total healthcare costs, 1.2 trillion is caused by waste. They showed the categories of waste and many of them were very low-hanging fruit. Eliminating that waste puts us on par with European countries in terms of healthcare spending as a % of GDP (you can use the search function to find my posts with the links, if interested). And YES, there most DEFINITELY needs to be some reform/oversight/etc for the insurance industry.

Oh, and for viewing pleasure per my previous post, a quick search yielded this gem of a thread. Allow me to post an excerpt:

Talk about a mandate; this poll demolishes the idea that the public will oppose health care reform legislation from Obama and the Democrats. Quite the opposite, it paints a picture of an electorate that is eager for reform to happen this year. With huge majorities in Congress, health care reform will be a done deal by the fall, regardless of how much the right-wing whines about it.

LOL. I'll be nice and won't post names here, but that thread is hilarious and quite embarrassing for a few posters.

 

[sportage]

Ding dong single payer is dead..

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091216/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_overhaul

some good news today at least

Which sector ot the insurance industry do you work in?
What gets me are attitudes like this, people with attitudes like this will be the first to cry out loud when someone in their family gets ill, I mean seriously ill, and is dropped by their insurance company, or charged such high rates they must declare bankruptcy and the loss of their home to afford care for that sick family member. These folks will be the first to cry and scream "unfair".

 

[sportage]

I love too... How opponents of reform are now more than ever saying "people are against this reform more and more each day". That is NOT because people reject reform... They reject the things like "the public option" and Medicare buy-in being stripped from the bill. Sure... It now appears polls are siding with the opponents against reform, as it stands today. But not because people are against reform, people are against the public option taken out of the bill. Its spin of all spins to watch opponents claim people do not want reform. Do not want a reform bill. What people are pissed about are the democrats not including a public option and caving in to opponents (republicans). THAT is the anger reflected in the polls. And YES, the democrats should, and they will pay dearly in the next few elections. That will not reflect some pro-republican vote, but the basic mad as hell angry citizen vote. But we should not have to tell the democrats in congress THAT... If they have not figure that out by now, then we are all doomed. Soon, your monthly healthcare costs will exceed your mortgage and car payments "combined". And that is for the healthy employed people with employer based insurance. Get ready... it’s coming. Enjoy.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I love too... How opponents of reform are now more than ever saying "people are against this reform more and more each day". That is NOT because people reject reform... They reject the things like "the public option" and Medicare buy-in being stripped from the bill. Sure... It now appears polls are siding with the opponents against reform, as it stands today. But not because people are against reform, people are against the public option taken out of the bill. Its spin of all spins to watch opponents claim people do not want reform. Do not want a reform bill. What people are pissed about are the democrats not including a public option and caving in to opponents (republicans). THAT is the anger reflected in the polls. And YES, the democrats should, and they will pay dearly in the next few elections. That will not reflect some pro-republican vote, but the basic mad as hell angry citizen vote. But we should not have to tell the democrats in congress THAT... If they have not figure that out by now, then we are all doomed. Soon, your monthly healthcare costs will exceed your mortgage and car payments "combined". And that is for the healthy employed people with employer based insurance. Get ready... it’s coming. Enjoy.

Both of our assinine, incompetent political parties had a golden opportunity to sit down and craft a bill with meaningful health care reform. Instead, both parties chose to play their usual political games and exhibited the "us against them" mentality which is so prevalent in Washington. The Democrats, for their part, got cocky and assumed because they had huge majorities in Congress and in the White House, they could do whatever they wanted, no matter how ridiculous or far left it was. Their arrogance is what blew it for them.

Republicans, on the other hand, concentrated on FUD rather than promoting a viable solution for reform and it bit them in the butt as well.

And I fear that in the end, you are right sportage. A half-assed and even crappier piece of legislation will get through and cost us all much more than we bargained for in the end.

 

[boomerang]

Regardless of the reasons, the majority in many polls from various sources don't want this bill. Instead of dropping this turd and starting over, the Senate presses forward, making statements like 'we may be voting for this on Christmas eve'.

What is really going on here? If the majority of your constituents don't want the legislation, if they're calling for your head, if they're getting vocal, demonstrating and organizing a third political party right before your very eyes, why in the world would one not pay attention and act accordingly?

Is it control they seek? Power? Why would you hang your ass out so far?

What is really going on? Something's rotten in Denmark and in this particular case it's not the Climate Summit.

This bill should be dropped in the trash. Do what it takes to eliminate the waste and fraud in Medicare/Medicaid we're all reading about. We don't need a 2,000 page bill to address that. If it's that important get on it right now. Then, suck it up and find a way to work with the other side of the aisle. Craft a bill that serves the interest of the people with input from not just the minority of the electorate. Then watch how much support it garners.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Regardless of the reasons, the majority in many polls from various sources don't want this bill. Instead of dropping this turd and starting over, the Senate presses forward, making statements like 'we may be voting for this on Christmas eve'.

What is really going on here? If the majority of your constituents don't want the legislation, if they're calling for your head, if they're getting vocal, demonstrating and organizing a third political party right before your very eyes, why in the world would one not pay attention and act accordingly?

Is it control they seek? Power? Why would you hang your ass out so far?

What is really going on? Something's rotten in Denmark and in this particular case it's not the Climate Summit.

This bill should be dropped in the trash. Do what it takes to eliminate the waste and fraud in Medicare/Medicaid we're all reading about. We don't need a 2,000 page bill to address that. If it's that important get on it right now. Then, suck it up and find a way to work with the other side of the aisle. Craft a bill that serves the interest of the people with input from not just the minority of the electorate. Then watch how much support it garners.

You forget the sheer enormity and mass of the egos involved. So many of these guys have been shooting off their mouths for so long and making bold claims and promises (particularly on the Democrat's side of the aisle) that they have painted themselves into a corner and they have to pass something, anything, to save face. I sincerely think that is what is going on here.

 

[cubby1223]

What people are pissed about are the democrats not including a public option and caving in to opponents (republicans). THAT is the anger reflected in the polls.

I disagree with your opinion.

Perhaps this is the new wave of anger towards the bill, but there are a lot of people out there across the full political spectrum, that never liked the government run plans.

And I know it's a tough concept to grasp when the MSNBC talking heads repeat it all show long every day, but the opposition to government run plans is not because we want insurance executives to continue paying themselves their big bonuses.

 

[Modelworks]

What is really going on? Something's rotten in Denmark and in this particular case it's not the Climate Summit.

T

What is going on is politicians that don't care what the voters want, they are doing what they want and they know we can't do a damn thing about it till it is time to vote again.

 

[cubby1223]

Which sector ot the insurance industry do you work in?

See, this is the difference between the progressive point of view, and the conservative point of view - the progressive point of view must rely on false assumptions, that anyone who opposes government run health care must be working for the insurance industry, or some other way more concerned about personal profits than the well-being of others.

And it just isn't true.

That's why you will always have a difficult time persuading others to even consider your opinions.

Remember when the line was that the only reason anyone opposes reform is because we are racist? Yea, how's that line working out? Couldn't convince people we were racist, so now it's that we are in bed with corporations. Give it another month or two, and this line will be spent. I'm kinda curious where you guys go from here to try and shout down the opposition with

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Was listening to Howard Dean on NPR last night and he's pissed. Is it true that the current legislation will allow insurance companies to surcharge up to 350% for pre-existing conditions? If so, I don't blame him.

 

[Hacp]

This health care bill is a sham. All it does is give the insurance industry more customers by forcing young people to buy health care and subsiding them. True health care reform won't come until we start deregulating the industry and allowing more players to enter the market.

 

[sciwizam]

Was listening to Howard Dean on NPR last night and he's pissed. Is it true that the current legislation will allow insurance companies to surcharge up to 350% for pre-existing conditions? If so, I don't blame him.

I think he said, 50% more for preexisting conditions and 300% more for seniors. He was pissed because this health care bill would supersede the law Vermont has (for about 15years) where the insurance there has to cover pre-existing conditions, but can't charge more than an additional 20%.