About US bases in Europe. - The US is no longer forced to base there to protect Europe - Europe can today protect itself as well as the US can. There are only two reasons for the bases today,
1) To maintain a US presence there, and to maintain good relations - there are communities in Europe who are reliant upon the local bases, and would be as sad to see them go as an american communities are when that happens.
2) More importantly - Missile defence. When the system is fully implemented, America will rely on Europe as a forward shield to defend against missiles heading west. It needs a net of bases - to detect, and then to launch second tier interceptors. European countries may not be too willing to host these, when they don't get the same benefits themselves, and when the sites themselves will be targets. However, pre-existing bases gives the US a good bargaining position - ie Fylingdales
And that's another interesting topic... The French have long been suspicious of the UK as being more aligned towards America than to the EU - DeGaulle blocked UK entry into the EU because he thought it would be a trojan horse for the US. Echelon provoked a storm due to this, when it was revealed that the US/UK/Aus/NZ were information sharing, including about the EU...
you forgot one
3)it just make sense to have a presence in a strategically very important region. A lot of the logistics for operations in the middle east comes from US bases in Europe. Even when they didn't agree with the USA, countries like Germany and Belgium granted overflying rights and access to ports. The middle east is only a few hours flying from most bases in Europe. If you have to transport stuff from the US to the middle east it's going to take more time and resources. Europe is an important forward deploying base for the USA. Most posterboys are yelling that the US should end it's presence in Europe but I'm not sure if even the US military wants that.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
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i prefer the more speak softly and carry the biggest stick mantra. Of course mans folly is he uses his toys, especially the chicken hawks and busniesses running usa today. but giving this GPS capability to all could have some big problems down the road..why make youself that vulnerable?
Galileo is a waste of money, plain and simple. If it's intended as a military enhancement, the Europeans, particularly Germany, would be much better off spending money upgrading their conventional forces which are in sore need of money. Look at Belgian's vaunted military, which spends something like 50% of its budget on personnel costs (if you ask for a cite for that, I'll kill you -- read it about 3 months ago in an article about Norway's military 
).
Seems to me more of a pride issue than anything else, which is damn stupid considering the budget deficits both France and Germany are running right now, CONTRARY TO EU "LAW", mind you. Work on something that doesn't exist or needs fixing, not duplication of existing capabilities. As is mentioned above, the future of the EU is far from certain, and I suspect it's much more likely for the EU to descend into nationalist fractionalism than it is for Fortress Europe and the United States to become bitter enemies.
Besides, people like me would never let the U.S. become an enemy of Europe. I love French wine too much. Just brought back several Grand Cru from Alsace.
By the way, Freegeeks, I wouldn't use French cars as an example of quality engineering when they aren't sold in the U.S. because of a horrible perception about their reliability. Ditto for Italian Fiats. With German cars, I'll give you the quality aspect.
).Seems to me more of a pride issue than anything else, which is damn stupid considering the budget deficits both France and Germany are running right now, CONTRARY TO EU "LAW", mind you. Work on something that doesn't exist or needs fixing, not duplication of existing capabilities. As is mentioned above, the future of the EU is far from certain, and I suspect it's much more likely for the EU to descend into nationalist fractionalism than it is for Fortress Europe and the United States to become bitter enemies.
Besides, people like me would never let the U.S. become an enemy of Europe. I love French wine too much. Just brought back several Grand Cru from Alsace.
By the way, Freegeeks, I wouldn't use French cars as an example of quality engineering when they aren't sold in the U.S. because of a horrible perception about their reliability. Ditto for Italian Fiats.
With German cars, I'll give you the quality aspect.Originally posted by: AndrewR
Galileo is a waste of money, plain and simple. If it's intended as a military enhancement, the Europeans, particularly Germany, would be much better off spending money upgrading their conventional forces which are in sore need of money. Look at Belgian's vaunted military, which spends something like 50% of its budget on personnel costs (if you ask for a cite for that, I'll kill you -- read it about 3 months ago in an article about Norway's military
Seems to me more of a pride issue than anything else, which is damn stupid considering the budget deficits both France and Germany are running right now, CONTRARY TO EU "LAW", mind you. Work on something that doesn't exist or needs fixing, not duplication of existing capabilities. As is mentioned above, the future of the EU is far from certain, and I suspect it's much more likely for the EU to descend into nationalist fractionalism than it is for Fortress Europe and the United States to become bitter enemies.
Besides, people like me would never let the U.S. become an enemy of Europe. I love French wine too much. Just brought back several Grand Cru from Alsace.
By the way, Freegeeks, I wouldn't use French cars as an example of quality engineering when they aren't sold in the U.S. because of a horrible perception about their reliability. Ditto for Italian Fiats.
you are right about the Belgian army. it's not a priority anymore. The only combat capable troops for the moment are the paratroopers brigade, some infantry units and our 90 modernized F-16's. We are only talking about a couple of thousand troops on a total of 45000. A big problem is that the Belgian army doesn't have enough (young) volunteers. Mandatory military service was stopped 7-8 years ago and they just don't have the people to fill up the combat positions.
Ironically the Belgian govt. made a decision yesterday to start a profound modernization of the army. New APC's, jeeps, light tanks, transport helicopters and a replacement for the C-130 Hercules are scheduled to come in service in the next years. They are going to reduce the F-16 fleet and replace the old Leopard tanks with something lighter but still with decent firepower. These Leopards are so old that they don't even use them anymore on military parades because they can not guarantee the safety of civilians (go figure). It was the first time in a long time that I saw a smile on the face of the chief-of-staf when the prime ministre made the announcement. I only have a flemish link for the moment so you have to belief me on my word
. They finally realized that they have to do something about it but they have a long way to go.And about the French cars, it's only perception. German cars have a reputation of reliablity and just look to the VW Passat problems.
btw Renault has plans to reenter the USA market in the coming years
enjoy the wine. If I remember correctly you were in France for some army language course. I see you made out it alive. Maybe the French are not that bad
Originally posted by: AndrewR
Galileo is a waste of money, plain and simple. If it's intended as a military enhancement, the Europeans, particularly Germany, would be much better off spending money upgrading their conventional forces which are in sore need of money. Look at Belgian's vaunted military, which spends something like 50% of its budget on personnel costs (if you ask for a cite for that, I'll kill you -- read it about 3 months ago in an article about Norway's military
Whether Galileo is a waste of money or not depends on where you view it from. To the American administration, it certainly is a waste of money - to Europeans it is quite the opposite. Yes, pride is an element in the desire for it, but mainly it is a demonstration of international competition, and more specifically, European independance, in the fields of communications and space. For the price of 150km of motorway, it seems to be quite justifiable.
As far as the European military goes, yes - it does need modernisation, but the best thing would be tighter integration. Duplication is its biggest problem. Closer cooperation will bring dividends, especially when it comes to funding big ticket projects, like new aircraft -the Eurofighter and A400M. Granted, neither of these two projects has been perfect, but it is early days yet, and these can be considered training runs. Besides, who can think of a military appropriations project that came in under budget?
The main thing missing in Europe is a unified political will, but I believe that this will come, as the EU fulfills its promise. I do worry, however, that recent years have helped this along, but in a negative way. While I am no anti-Bush bigot, it is undeniable that the sum of his actions - his unilateralism, and apparant lack of concern for the opinions of his allies, has brought much of Europe together in opposition to him. As an atlanticist, I would be very unhappy to see the EU define itself through opposition to America, even if it was just the america of one president.
Originally posted by: AndrewR
Galileo is a waste of money, plain and simple. If it's intended as a military enhancement, the Europeans, particularly Germany, would be much better off spending money upgrading their conventional forces which are in sore need of money. Look at Belgian's vaunted military, which spends something like 50% of its budget on personnel costs (if you ask for a cite for that, I'll kill you -- read it about 3 months ago in an article about Norway's military
Seems to me more of a pride issue than anything else, which is damn stupid considering the budget deficits both France and Germany are running right now, CONTRARY TO EU "LAW", mind you. Work on something that doesn't exist or needs fixing, not duplication of existing capabilities. As is mentioned above, the future of the EU is far from certain, and I suspect it's much more likely for the EU to descend into nationalist fractionalism than it is for Fortress Europe and the United States to become bitter enemies.
Besides, people like me would never let the U.S. become an enemy of Europe. I love French wine too much. Just brought back several Grand Cru from Alsace.
By the way, Freegeeks, I wouldn't use French cars as an example of quality engineering when they aren't sold in the U.S. because of a horrible perception about their reliability. Ditto for Italian Fiats.
Guys, why do u have to look militaristic at everything? Where do you get the idea that GALILEO is a military project - it isnt. It is a commercial project. Granted, I havent researched a whole lot on the matter, maybe they just sell it to us as civilian to get public support - which they wouldnt if military was mentioned - but no,I have never heard anything about military being a priority.
And freegeeks - Renault wanting to enter the US market? As what - curiosity, have you looked at those ugly POS they are producing lately. There would be more chance in selling those bland looking Citreons. The only decent french car maker imho is Peugot. Btw, according to ADAC road-failure statistics french cars have a sucky reliability.
Originally posted by: B00ne
Originally posted by: AndrewR
Galileo is a waste of money, plain and simple. If it's intended as a military enhancement, the Europeans, particularly Germany, would be much better off spending money upgrading their conventional forces which are in sore need of money. Look at Belgian's vaunted military, which spends something like 50% of its budget on personnel costs (if you ask for a cite for that, I'll kill you -- read it about 3 months ago in an article about Norway's military
Seems to me more of a pride issue than anything else, which is damn stupid considering the budget deficits both France and Germany are running right now, CONTRARY TO EU "LAW", mind you. Work on something that doesn't exist or needs fixing, not duplication of existing capabilities. As is mentioned above, the future of the EU is far from certain, and I suspect it's much more likely for the EU to descend into nationalist fractionalism than it is for Fortress Europe and the United States to become bitter enemies.
Besides, people like me would never let the U.S. become an enemy of Europe. I love French wine too much. Just brought back several Grand Cru from Alsace.
By the way, Freegeeks, I wouldn't use French cars as an example of quality engineering when they aren't sold in the U.S. because of a horrible perception about their reliability. Ditto for Italian Fiats.
Guys, why do u have to look militaristic at everything? Where do you get the idea that GALILEO is a military project - it isnt. It is a commercial project. Granted, I havent researched a whole lot on the matter, maybe they just sell it to us as civilian to get public support - which they wouldnt if military was mentioned - but no,I have never heard anything about military being a priority.
And freegeeks - Renault wanting to enter the US market? As what - curiosity, have you looked at those ugly POS they are producing lately. There would be more chance in selling those bland looking Citreons. The only decent french car maker imho is Peugot. Btw, according to ADAC road-failure statistics french cars have a sucky reliability.
I agree with you on the latest designs but just look at GM and the fugly cars they produce
and reliabilty of german and french cars is comparable
link
they equally suck
Let's see... what are the other options for Europe to defend itself against the USA?
Giving Al Qaida a few dozen nukes will get rid of most big US cities, I guess that would limit its power a bit.
It's quite amusing that I didn't even know you were Belgian -- just happened to use that example because I read about it recently! I wonder if that one brigade you mentioned is the one tasked for the EuroCorps rapid reaction force. Do you know? We visited their HQ in Strasbourg, and it was rather comical. They have undertaken two missions so far as a EuroCorps force, but both were at the request of NATO with units dually tasked to EuroCorps and NATO command structures. Take off one hat and put on another.
Didn't say it was fact. Fact is that most people in the U.S., if they have a reputation on French cars (some don't even know they exist), will say that they are unreliable. Renault will have a tough time selling their cars at least until they prove otherwise.
It was through the Air Force, just to be precise. I studied there for a year back in college so it wasn't entirely foreign, and it was actually much less foreign that where I live now. I've never stated that I hate the French, only their government.
I brought up the military aspect because it was discussed earlier in the thread. Nevertheless, many projects which are started for military purposes wind up with civilian uses. GPS is probably the biggest example of that, but there are countless others. I, too, am ignorant of the motives behind Galileo, but any military aspect is pointless to me since as I mentioned, most of Europe needs to spend money on bullets, guns, and tanks, not satellites.
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