US manufacturing in decline

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: charrison
The fact remains that average wage continues to rise. So that alone makes it obvious that the jobs that are lost are not being replaced with lesser paying jobs.
Fact? Why is it a fact? Because you say so?

You have developed a VERY bad habit of citing "fact" with no proof or basis for that "fact". One of your "facts" was already disproven by nergee.

As for the average wage continuing to rise, sure, it's rising but is it outpacing inflation? Is it increasing enough to cover increasing medical costs?

And you are just getting in a very bad habit of being stupid as of late. You are quoting a report based on 2-3 year old data that says at the very least wages are at least keeping up with inflation. So it still appears wages are not falling, even according to you own links.


This report backs up Kerry's claims last year of a "shrinking middle class"
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www...ses/archives/income_wealth/002484.html

Consumer Prices Increase, Outstrip Wages
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co...rticle/2005/08/16/AR2005081600411.html

Slower wage growth (Chart)
(more like negative wage growth)

And why should I bother posting anything to back up my claims, you would not bother to read them anyway, because after all if it is not a digestable graph it is too difficult for you. It appears you did not even read the wapo article as it is not nearly as gloomy as you would like it to be.


So no comment on what conjur posted? Seemed pretty clear that the middle/lower middle are stuck in wages at or below inflation while the upper's rise. Losing manufacturing takes these decent paying jobs away and I doubt that service jobs are indeed paying as much as those lost manufacturing jobs. People might be working more or even two jobs, but I doubt 4 million people that were let go have an "average" wage higher than that of the manufacturing environment.

Losing those jobs = larger profits = larger pay for those at the top (investor class) = lower for the rest of us poor slobs, not to mention trade deficit <insert puke icon here>
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: charrison
The fact remains that average wage continues to rise. So that alone makes it obvious that the jobs that are lost are not being replaced with lesser paying jobs.
Fact? Why is it a fact? Because you say so?

You have developed a VERY bad habit of citing "fact" with no proof or basis for that "fact". One of your "facts" was already disproven by nergee.

As for the average wage continuing to rise, sure, it's rising but is it outpacing inflation? Is it increasing enough to cover increasing medical costs?
And you are just getting in a very bad habit of being stupid as of late. You are quoting a report based on 2-3 year old data that says at the very least wages are at least keeping up with inflation. So it still appears wages are not falling, even according to you own links.
<ahem>

This report backs up Kerry's claims last year of a "shrinking middle class"
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www...ses/archives/income_wealth/002484.html

Consumer Prices Increase, Outstrip Wages
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co...rticle/2005/08/16/AR2005081600411.html

Slower wage growth (Chart)
(more like negative wage growth)

1st link shows wages aren't growing as of 2003. The 2nd two links cover wages since then and show very plainly they are not growing.

The only stupidity being exhibited is your own as you are ignoring and dismissing what is painfully obvious.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: conjur

1st link shows wages aren't growing as of 2003.

The 2nd two links cover wages since then and show very plainly they are not growing.

The only stupidity being exhibited is your own as you are ignoring and dismissing what is painfully obvious.

It's not "painful" to the top % that are getting rich, clearly for some reason ATPN is loaded with many that fall into that small tier.

Actually I know what that reason is, spoiled brats have a need to brag and belittle those not as fortunate as themselves.

It's unfortunately normal human behavior.
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
linkage

The decline of manufacturing in rich countries is a more complex story than the piles of Chinese-made goods in shops suggest. Manufacturing output continues to expand in most developed countries?in America, by almost 4% a year on average since 1991. Despite the rise in Chinese exports, America is still the world's biggest manufacturer, producing about twice as much, measured by value, as China.

...
All that is good. Faster productivity growth means higher average incomes. Low rates of unemployment in the countries which have shifted furthest away from manufacturing suggest that most laid-off workers have found new jobs. And consumers have benefited from cheap Chinese imports.

Yet there is a residual belief that making things you can drop on your toe is superior to working in accounting or hairdressing. Manufacturing jobs, it is often said, are better than the Mcjobs typical in the service sector. Yet working conditions in services are often pleasanter and safer than on an assembly line, and average wages in the fastest-growing sectors, such as finance, professional and business services, education and health, are higher than in manufacturing.

...

People always resist change, yet sustained growth relies on a continuous shift in resources to more efficient use. In 1820, for example, 70% of American workers were in agriculture; today 2% are. If all those workers had remained tilling the land, America would now be a lot poorer.

It appears the death of US manufactuing is greatly exagerated and that worker are adapting to the change by find better jobs.

Yes, but 30 years ago, we were producing more by far than now. The steady decline is really due to lower cost overseas and the markets demand for profit above all else.

 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: Condor

Yes, but 30 years ago, we were producing more by far than now. The steady decline is really due to lower cost overseas and the markets demand for profit above all else.

According to everything that I've seen, we're producing far more with far fewer people (productivity gains, automation, etc) than 30 years ago. I'm assuming that the figures are not simply "inflation adjusted" numbers and have something actually to do with productions (units produced, etc). I think that's what the OP is about, production, and not simply the number of people working in the field.
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: conjur

1st link shows wages aren't growing as of 2003.

The 2nd two links cover wages since then and show very plainly they are not growing.

The only stupidity being exhibited is your own as you are ignoring and dismissing what is painfully obvious.

It's not "painful" to the top % that are getting rich, clearly for some reason ATPN is loaded with many that fall into that small tier.

Actually I know what that reason is, spoiled brats have a need to brag and belittle those not as fortunate as themselves.

It's unfortunately normal human behavior.

Yes, you are one of them. Millions of people are in poverty, yet you spend your money buying Internet access and computers so you can shove it in their face that you can spout your rhetoric across the digital lands.

Why don't you take some of your wealth and use it to help the poor?

No need to answer, Captain Hypocrite. :laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Unfortunately, I'm forced to agree with WhipperSnapper.

The good news is that manufacturing is improving as a source of wealth and income for the ownership class.

The bad news is that it's going to hell in a handbasket as a source of decent paying jobs for Americans...

And, as the workforce becomes more educated, employers will just raise qualifications. college degree? check. perfect credit? check. excellent employment history? check. churchgoer? check. proper political affiliation? check. Welcome to the Wal Mart Family!

Manufacturing jobs has almost always been repetitive jobs for the uneducated. If not for unions, those jobs would be paying a wage in accordance to that. Of course, you're just an ignorant liberal who doesn't understand how the world really works.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Unfortunately, I'm forced to agree with WhipperSnapper.

The good news is that manufacturing is improving as a source of wealth and income for the ownership class.

The bad news is that it's going to hell in a handbasket as a source of decent paying jobs for Americans...

And, as the workforce becomes more educated, employers will just raise qualifications. college degree? check. perfect credit? check. excellent employment history? check. churchgoer? check. proper political affiliation? check. Welcome to the Wal Mart Family!

Manufacturing jobs has almost always been repetitive jobs for the uneducated. If not for unions, those jobs would be paying a wage in accordance to that. Of course, you're just an ignorant liberal who doesn't understand how the world really works.


Do you ever post anything without insulting somebody? I guess you're the only fvcking person in the world who understands how it works. Why don't we make you God or something, eh? Goddamn elitist who thinks they know every fvcking answer and constantly runs others down.

/rant
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: conjur

1st link shows wages aren't growing as of 2003.

The 2nd two links cover wages since then and show very plainly they are not growing.

The only stupidity being exhibited is your own as you are ignoring and dismissing what is painfully obvious.

It's not "painful" to the top % that are getting rich, clearly for some reason ATPN is loaded with many that fall into that small tier.

Actually I know what that reason is, spoiled brats have a need to brag and belittle those not as fortunate as themselves.

It's unfortunately normal human behavior.

Yes, you are one of them. Millions of people are in poverty, yet you spend your money buying Internet access and computers so you can shove it in their face that you can spout your rhetoric across the digital lands.

Why don't you take some of your wealth and use it to help the poor?

No need to answer, Captain Hypocrite. :laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh

I am not wealthy and yet I do more in one day than you will ever do in your lifetime.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: conjur

1st link shows wages aren't growing as of 2003.

The 2nd two links cover wages since then and show very plainly they are not growing.

The only stupidity being exhibited is your own as you are ignoring and dismissing what is painfully obvious.
It's not "painful" to the top % that are getting rich, clearly for some reason ATPN is loaded with many that fall into that small tier.

Actually I know what that reason is, spoiled brats have a need to brag and belittle those not as fortunate as themselves.

It's unfortunately normal human behavior.
Yes, you are one of them. Millions of people are in poverty, yet you spend your money buying Internet access and computers so you can shove it in their face that you can spout your rhetoric across the digital lands.

Why don't you take some of your wealth and use it to help the poor?

No need to answer, Captain Hypocrite. :laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh
I am not wealthy and yet I do more in one day than you will ever do in your lifetime.
I've no doubt in my mind about that. ;)
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: conjur

1st link shows wages aren't growing as of 2003.

The 2nd two links cover wages since then and show very plainly they are not growing.

The only stupidity being exhibited is your own as you are ignoring and dismissing what is painfully obvious.

It's not "painful" to the top % that are getting rich, clearly for some reason ATPN is loaded with many that fall into that small tier.

Actually I know what that reason is, spoiled brats have a need to brag and belittle those not as fortunate as themselves.

It's unfortunately normal human behavior.

Yes, you are one of them. Millions of people are in poverty, yet you spend your money buying Internet access and computers so you can shove it in their face that you can spout your rhetoric across the digital lands.

Why don't you take some of your wealth and use it to help the poor?

No need to answer, Captain Hypocrite. :laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh:laugh

I am not wealthy and yet I do more in one day than you will ever do in your lifetime.

If you mean crying and complaining, then you're right!
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: dirtboy
If you mean crying and complaining, then you're right!

You're name suits you well. You should go home now...the dirt misses you.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Thanks for the personal attack, dirtboy. It's generally the last resort of the argumentatively and intellectually challenged, and of those suffering from some form of denial.

America is, unfortunately, full of relatively uneducated people. The simple fact that a majority will sometimes vote Republican, against their own interests, should illustrate that fact. And those people need jobs to support themselves, and to make a contribution to society and to the economy, regardless of their other inadequacies. Manufacturing provided those jobs in many communities, particularly in small to medium cities in Red States.... and fueled the economies of those places. Ultimately, we'll have to deal with the really big question- does business serve the nation, or does the nation serve business? How does government shape that relationship to best serve the most Americans? Where's the balance point that maximizes results for everybody?

I understand how the world works- in a macro sense, people will fill whatever jobs are available within an economy, and what's available isn't necessarily very good on average. Individuals can move up within that system on the basis of education, hard work, experience, or just blind luck. It doesn't change the system itself, or the availability or pay rate of different jobs within a given economy. Improved education doesn't necessarily mean that there's a demand for it in the job market- ask all the Techies who got the old cornholio when the dotcom bubble burst... and what jobs remain were often offshored to India... Master's degree in computer technology? So What? That job pays $18K in Bangalore, and they do good work...

Manufacturing has unique advantages, in that it adds tremendous value in the process, some of which can be taken by workers as wages, some of which goes to their capitalist bosses. It also creates a whole chaiin of wealth in the distribution process, and in ancilliary businesses... Other endeavors in the service sector don't do this nearly as well, meaning that the split has to be different, and the fact that manufacturing and exportable service workers in emerging economies will work for nearly nothing skews the whole thing even further. Heck, mainland chinese will work so cheap that manufacturing processes automated in Taiwan and Singapore are done by hand on the mainland... brute force methodology, with minimum investment or technology... Great news for capitalists, good news for rural chinese who just fell off the turnip truck in Shanghai, and not necessarily good news for anybody else, at all...
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
It's difficult to understand why so many people insist on arguing past one another.

Only the recalcitrant believes US manufacturing has become less productive. We get more done with fewer people than any time in our country's history (probably).

On the flipside, everyone but the idiots knows the actual number of manufacturing jobs (particularly well paying ones) have been on the decline for decades.

The problem with the latter is that in days gone by an unskilled manufacturing job could lead to a semi-skilled job, a semi-skilled job could lead to a skilled one, skill positions could lead to management, and so forth. In essence, opportunities abounded for people willing to work hard.

Now we have a system where employers will go wherever they can in the world to find the cheapest labor with sufficient skills. And on the homefront, they eagerly employ undocumented labor.

The ultimate evil is that the growing tax burden in America (there's very little doubt that it continues to grow) falls most harshly upon the very same Americans that no longer have many ladders for advancement. The portion of taxes paid by corporations are on the decline. The portion of taxes paid by levies on capital gains have declined. In the meantime, property taxes rise, fuel surcharges rise, sales taxes are up, and every "fee" imaginable creeps up year over year.

Once the rest of the world gets tired of loaning America money, interest rates will go through the roof and the burden will grow even moreso on those least able to bear the weight.
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Thanks for the personal attack, dirtboy. It's generally the last resort of the argumentatively and intellectually challenged, and of those suffering from some form of denial.

bwahahahaha

Look at all the liberal apologists lining up. The liberal here lay down personal attacks on me on a per second basis... hahaha thanks for pointing out that your party is a bunch of desperate losers. :thumbsup:
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: dirtboy
If you mean crying and complaining, then you're right!

You're name suits you well. You should go home now...the dirt misses you.

Aren't you the same guy who criticized me for calling you names? Oh wait, you are. I see you are taking after your leader dave quite well. We will now refer to you as Lt. Hypocrite. Welcome to the ranks; you've earned your stripes.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: dirtboy
If you mean crying and complaining, then you're right!

You're name suits you well. You should go home now...the dirt misses you.

Aren't you the same guy who criticized me for calling you names? Oh wait, you are. I see you are taking after your leader dave quite well. We will now refer to you as Lt. Hypocrite. Welcome to the ranks; you've earned your stripes.

I didn't insult you in the other thread and you insulted me there by calling me an idiot. You call anyone an idiot that you "think" doesn't understand the "world" or "world economics" as you see fit. You're a troll in this area and everyone on here knows it. It's one thing to throw out an argument against something, but it's another to throw it out with the usual "you're an idiot" ending. I didn't just call you a name out of the blue because of your "arguement", I called you a troll because you constantly belittle others for "NO" reason. Your's is well deserved. :)
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: dirtboy
If you mean crying and complaining, then you're right!

You're name suits you well. You should go home now...the dirt misses you.

Aren't you the same guy who criticized me for calling you names? Oh wait, you are. I see you are taking after your leader dave quite well. We will now refer to you as Lt. Hypocrite. Welcome to the ranks; you've earned your stripes.

I didn't insult you in the other thread and you insulted me there by calling me an idiot. You call anyone an idiot that you "think" doesn't understand the "world" or "world economics" as you see fit. You're a troll in this area and everyone on here knows it. It's one thing to throw out an argument against something, but it's another to throw it out with the usual "you're an idiot" ending. I didn't just call you a name out of the blue because of your "arguement", I called you a troll because you constantly belittle others for "NO" reason. Your's is well deserved. :)

Look at the apologists lining up to justify a wrong. :roll:

I don't belittle people for no reason. I just am trying to be like the forum liberals. Have some compassion; I'm trying to see the world from their view.

BTW, I continued our discussion in the other thread without insults. A discussion to which I believe you dropped.

And you insulted me in this thread for no reason, but that's different. :confused: I got it now, when a liberal insults someone it's okay. Let's just pretend I'm a liberal so everything I say is okay. :thumbsup:

I hate to burst your bubble, but everyone that posts in the forum is a troll. Maybe a cookie will make you feel better. :cookie:
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: dirtboy

I hate to burst your bubble, but everyone that posts in the forum is a troll. Maybe a cookie will make you feel better. :cookie:

I've never seen Jhhnn make a trollish post..... you on the other hand??? LOL You should eat mud cookies.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: charrison
The fact remains that average wage continues to rise. So that alone makes it obvious that the jobs that are lost are not being replaced with lesser paying jobs.
Fact? Why is it a fact? Because you say so?

You have developed a VERY bad habit of citing "fact" with no proof or basis for that "fact". One of your "facts" was already disproven by nergee.

As for the average wage continuing to rise, sure, it's rising but is it outpacing inflation? Is it increasing enough to cover increasing medical costs?
And you are just getting in a very bad habit of being stupid as of late. You are quoting a report based on 2-3 year old data that says at the very least wages are at least keeping up with inflation. So it still appears wages are not falling, even according to you own links.
<ahem>

This report backs up Kerry's claims last year of a "shrinking middle class"
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www...ses/archives/income_wealth/002484.html

Consumer Prices Increase, Outstrip Wages
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co...rticle/2005/08/16/AR2005081600411.html

Slower wage growth (Chart)
(more like negative wage growth)

1st link shows wages aren't growing as of 2003. The 2nd two links cover wages since then and show very plainly they are not growing.

The only stupidity being exhibited is your own as you are ignoring and dismissing what is painfully obvious.



Yes but at least I am capable of reading an entire report without relying on digestable graphics. Your links were not all bad news.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: ntdz
Check the front page of Anandtech.com

http://www.anandtech.com/news/shownews.aspx?i=25011

Corsair opens a new factory in Fremont, Ca. More manufactoring here in the USA :)[/q]

How can this be? This goes against the Republican ideal of shipping all jobs overseas.

You admitting this was a mistake???

I'm truly shocked :shocked:

I'm not for shipping jobs overseas, but then again I'm not afraid of change like liberals such as yourself. You don't even address the fact that a new plant was made here in the USA, you just go sarcastic acting as if I want all manufactoring jobs to move elsewhere.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: ntdz
Check the front page of Anandtech.com

http://www.anandtech.com/news/shownews.aspx?i=25011

Corsair opens a new factory in Fremont, Ca. More manufactoring here in the USA :)[/q]

How can this be? This goes against the Republican ideal of shipping all jobs overseas.

You admitting this was a mistake???

I'm truly shocked :shocked:

I'm not for shipping jobs overseas, but then again I'm not afraid of change like liberals such as yourself. You don't even address the fact that a new plant was made here in the USA, you just go sarcastic acting as if I want all manufactoring jobs to move elsewhere.


P.S. Corsair "moved" to a bigger building and added one line (from five to six) (shut down the old factory). Didn't say that more people were hired, although I really hope that they did hire more. It's nice to see business expand in the US, or even better to move (back) to the US. :)