US ITC ban on Nvidia patent infringement products

[Will Robinson]

http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4204934/ITC-ruling-could-bar-Nvidia-chips



Sounds like no big deal.....yet.

How Rambus started all this... they were part of a committee to set open standards for memory (JDEC?). Instead they secretly patented these "standards" screwing everyone.

Loss of market share,falling stock price...and now this.
NVidia are rapidly becoming the BP of the graphics world:\

 

[akugami]

The RAM patent fiasco is one of the biggest patent trolling in the history of patents. I doubt anything will ever top it. At least with honest patent trolls they patent everything under the sun and hope to catch someone on it. In Rambus's case they helped push through the DDR RAM spec which included their technologies which they kept quiet about and then sued everyone under the sun who used DDR RAM.

 

[hectorsm]

Not sure if the Wiki is anything to go on, but from what I read there it seemed they were invited to join the JEDEC. When they saw how the JEDEC handled patents and distributions of royalties, they backed out. That was probably the best move for them since it was their patents that the JEDEC wanted to distribute freely among its members. By backing out they kept the patents and thus any royalties for themselves.

Also, I didn't know it was the ongoing investigations to fraud and junk against RAMBUS that led to the discovery of the price fixing by the memory vendors. Haha. They sued Rambus, Rambus gave out the info and thus got the other guys fined haha. Irony at its best.

Their exit wasn't exactly that clean. From what I read JEDEC membership requires that it's members disclose any patent conflict with the standards being discussed in the JEDEC meetings. RAMBUS left JEDEC without revealing this conflict. They left so that they could collect royalties on JEDEC's standards. Guess who will be paying the royalties for this dishonest company?....we the consumer! The memory companies will just pass the cost to us.

 

[Modelworks]

Nvidia will settle out of court. All these electronic companies get caught stealing patents. They play the game of steal the patent and hopefully we can profit enough off it that when we do get caught we can just settle.

 

[Modelworks]

In Rambus's case they helped push through the DDR RAM spec which included their technologies which they kept quiet about and then sued everyone under the sun who used DDR RAM.

That isn't how it works. When you design a product your company is responsible for making sure that what you are using is your own design, not someone else. It is not like you file a patent then suddenly someone comes up with the exact same idea, never having seen yours and now you can sue. 99% of the time the companies that get sued knew the other patent existed and use it to design their own products sometimes changing just enough to try to get by paying licensing. If it were my designs and someone else used them you can bet I would sue them too.

These patents were made in 1997, before Nvidia ever existed so there is no way they can claim they thought of it first. Nvidia should fire their current patent attorneys and get some new ones before they get caught using someone else design because apparently those patent clerks they have are not capable of finding a patent that has been on file for 13 years.

 

[Wreckage]

These patents were made in 1997, before Nvidia ever existed so there is no way they can claim they thought of it first.

Not to nitpick but NVIDIA was founded in 1993

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia

Also Rambus' deceptive JEDEC crap screwed a lot of companies. AMD for example just did not put up a fight.

http://www.crn.com/it-channel/175800680

 

[akugami]

@Modelworks

The patented tech were included in JEDEC approved standards. RAMBUS attended those meetings and didn't mention they owned the patents on them and that RAMBUS was not going to license the patents for inclusion in the DDR standard. Instead, RAMBUS kept quiet and sued everyone that has used DDR since.

Also, in defense of some companies like nVidia and ATI, it's almost impossible at this time to not use DDR based memory since it's pretty much what everyone manufactures.

 

[Modelworks]

Their exit wasn't exactly that clean. From what I read JEDEC membership requires that it's members disclose any patent conflict with the standards being discussed in the JEDEC meetings. RAMBUS left JEDEC without revealing this conflict. They left so that they could collect royalties on JEDEC's standards. Guess who will be paying the royalties for this dishonest company?....we the consumer! The memory companies will just pass the cost to us.

. The dishonest companies were those that were trying to get rambus to join. I was pretty involved in the semiconductor world at that time , I knew many engineers involved in the area, and was told by many that what had happened is months before being asked to join, rambus had given many of those same companies details on their designs under the premise that these companies were going to license the technology. Instead the companies wanted rambus to join them in exchange for the information that rambus would normally have been paid for. When rambus found out what was going on they pulled out. Almost immediately after that the same companies that wanted rambus to join began producing work using the technology anyway saying that the designs they were using were not those of rambus, but ones that they all had discussed openly at meetings and that rambus was the one stealing the technology.

The only thing I have to go on that rambus could be telling the truth is that before the jedec meeting the other companies had received copies of technology from rambus but rambus had never sampled any of the others work. rambus since then has aggressively sued companies and really harmed their image. I might be angry too if I had technology and after sharing it was stabbed in the back because a group of like customers decided they could gang up on me.

 

[Modelworks]

@Modelworks

The patented tech were included in JEDEC approved standards. RAMBUS attended those meetings and didn't mention they owned the patents on them and that RAMBUS was not going to license the patents for inclusion in the DDR standard. Instead, RAMBUS kept quiet and sued everyone that has used DDR since.

The companies knew the patents existed because months before they had inquired about licenses.

Also, in defense of some companies like nVidia and ATI, it's almost impossible at this time to not use DDR based memory since it's pretty much what everyone manufactures.

They are free to make their own designs or they can pay to use someone else patent like everyone else has to.

Just because something is used by everyone doesn't mean it can be used for free.

 

[akugami]

I was under the impression that RAMBUS merely kept quiet and pulled out. This was what was reported by pretty much all media at the time. Obviously I am not involved in the industry. I still find it strange that RAMBUS didn't issue a statement to JEDEC telling them they didn't want their tech included in the DDR spec. Memory is fuzzy but I believe they didn't start suing other companies until after RDRAM's failure.

 

[Modelworks]

Not to nitpick but NVIDIA was founded in 1993

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia

True but they were not a big enough player to have been involved at the time the patents were issued.

Also Rambus' deceptive JEDEC crap screwed a lot of companies. AMD for example just did not put up a fight.

I don't see anything they did as deceptive. I think it was a case of the big fish trying to consume the little one. Only they picked on the wrong fish.

 

[bryanW1995]

Worse they planted people to push the standards in a certain direction. Back in 98-00 when Intel was pushing Rambus memory and Rambus started suing everybody this was a huge story.

huh, you mean they secretly insinuated people into a larger group without disclosing their true purpose? I wonder how many of those people ended up working for nvidia a few years ago...




I just remember that I bought an amd computer ~ 2001 b/c the cpu was about the same speed but the intel ram from rambus was much more expensive.

 

[Modelworks]

I was under the impression that RAMBUS merely kept quiet and pulled out. This was what was reported by pretty much all media at the time. Obviously I am not involved in the industry. I still find it strange that RAMBUS didn't issue a statement to JEDEC telling them they didn't want their tech included in the DDR spec. Memory is fuzzy but I believe they didn't start suing other companies until after RDRAM's failure.

Rambus probably thought at the time there was no need. All the parties had signed an NDA previously to view the technology which prohibited them from using it without licensing. Including it anyway and then saying they came up with it at meetings seems underhanded.

One of the reasons for them suing I was told was because the DDR companies tried to force them out the business by selling ddr under cost.

 

[Wreckage]

I was under the impression that RAMBUS merely kept quiet and pulled out. This was what was reported by pretty much all media at the time. Obviously I am not involved in the industry. I still find it strange that RAMBUS didn't issue a statement to JEDEC telling them they didn't want their tech included in the DDR spec. Memory is fuzzy but I believe they didn't start suing other companies until after RDRAM's failure.

This is what I have read about the situation as well.

 

[railven]

. The dishonest companies were those that were trying to get rambus to join. I was pretty involved in the semiconductor world at that time , I knew many engineers involved in the area, and was told by many that what had happened is months before being asked to join, rambus had given many of those same companies details on their designs under the premise that these companies were going to license the technology. Instead the companies wanted rambus to join them in exchange for the information that rambus would normally have been paid for. When rambus found out what was going on they pulled out. Almost immediately after that the same companies that wanted rambus to join began producing work using the technology anyway saying that the designs they were using were not those of rambus, but ones that they all had discussed openly at meetings and that rambus was the one stealing the technology.

The only thing I have to go on that rambus could be telling the truth is that before the jedec meeting the other companies had received copies of technology from rambus but rambus had never sampled any of the others work. rambus since then has aggressively sued companies and really harmed their image. I might be angry too if I had technology and after sharing it was stabbed in the back because a group of like customers decided they could gang up on me.

Pretty much what the Wiki says. They never joined JEDEC. They wanted to, but when they saw how the patents would be freely used they pulled out knowing they'd make more money.

On the Wiki one of the memos quotes was like "this is how PCs will run in the future, lets just hope RAMBUS doesn't get all the royalties." Or something of the sort.

I gathered Rambus outsmarted them and now they are pissed because one company holds the chips.

 

[hectorsm]

. The dishonest companies were those that were trying to get rambus to join. I was pretty involved in the semiconductor world at that time , I knew many engineers involved in the area, and was told by many that what had happened is months before being asked to join, rambus had given many of those same companies details on their designs under the premise that these companies were going to license the technology. Instead the companies wanted rambus to join them in exchange for the information that rambus would normally have been paid for. When rambus found out what was going on they pulled out. Almost immediately after that the same companies that wanted rambus to join began producing work using the technology anyway saying that the designs they were using were not those of rambus, but ones that they all had discussed openly at meetings and that rambus was the one stealing the technology.

The only thing I have to go on that rambus could be telling the truth is that before the jedec meeting the other companies had received copies of technology from rambus but rambus had never sampled any of the others work. rambus since then has aggressively sued companies and really harmed their image. I might be angry too if I had technology and after sharing it was stabbed in the back because a group of like customers decided they could gang up on me.

That's a very different story from what was giving by the media at the time.

Anyway, that's even more reason why RAMBUS should had disclosed their intentions to JEDEC as the JEDEC rules required. If RAMBUS had disclosed their patents to JEDEC, then JEDEC would have been forced to pull out the design elements in question out of the DDR specification and prevented the whole mess. JEDEC would have in a sense validated RAMBUS position and made it harder for the other companies to steal their technology. Now that the technology is part of the JEDEC standard other companies want to claim their products are royalty free.

Since discosure would had benefited RAMBUS, that leave DDR royalties collection as the obvious reason for their silence.

 

[hectorsm]

Pretty much what the Wiki says. They never joined JEDEC. They wanted to, but when they saw how the patents would be freely used they pulled out knowing they'd make more money.

On the Wiki one of the memos quotes was like "this is how PCs will run in the future, lets just hope RAMBUS doesn't get all the royalties." Or something of the sort.

I gathered Rambus outsmarted them and now they are pissed because one company holds the chips.

Read something a little more trustworthy

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2006/08/rambus.shtm

They participated in JEDEC activities for over 4 years without disclosing their activities.

 

[wlee15]

Read something a little more trustworthy

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2006/08/rambus.shtm

They participated in JEDEC activities for over 4 years without disclosing their activities.

That was overturned by an Appeals court.

http://www.baselinemag.com/c/a/Infrastructure/US-Appeals-Court-Overturns-FTC-Order-Versus-Rambus/

 

[Meghan54]

Just for information, the three patents RAMBUS is suing Nvidia over were issued between 2002 and 2007.....

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=CMYLAAAAEBAJ&dq=inassignee:rambus+6470405

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=sRMPAAAAEBAJ&dq=inassignee:rambus+6,591,353

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=BZuRAAAAEBAJ&dq=inassignee:rambus+7,287,109

 

[epidemis]

That was overturned by an Appeals court.

http://www.baselinemag.com/c/a/Infrastructure/US-Appeals-Court-Overturns-FTC-Order-Versus-Rambus/

That portion wasn't overturned

 

[SlowSpyder]

As much as I'm not an Nvidia fan these days (Batman AA, pulling Physx support on people who bought cards that were sold as Physx capable when they dectect AMD) I can't really say I'm happy to see this happen. What Rambus did was downright dirty. I think the industry would be much better off without Rambus.

 

[Azurik]

Honestly, and I don't mean this in the wrong way, but most of you guys have no clue about Rambus being bullied by the memory manufacturers.

I don't blame you for hating Rambus by reading what you have read in the press, but the reality is Micron has been pumping FUD and misinformation to their sources and from there it spreads through papers. It makes Rambus look like the bad guys when the opposite it true.

Rambus is an IP licensing company, just like CREE is for LEDs and Qualcomm for CDMA cellphones. They invent things to license to others. That is their bread and butter and when companies steal their inventions, their only recourse is to sue them in court.

Did you guys know that the biggest memory manufacturers have admitted to illegally price-fix DRAM? They artificially raise RDRAM prices and lowered DDR prices.

Did you know that Micron and Hynix sued Rambus first and not the other way around? Did you know that Hynix sued Rambus in California and then a day later, Micron sued Rambus in Delaware? They collaborated to sue Rambus from one coast to another, so they had to fight on two different coast and hopefully run out of money.

Did you know Rambus has won virtually all their court cases? And if they lost initially, that the higher appeals court has always sided with Rambus?

Look deeper.

 

[Azurik]

Lets also add that a lot of companies signed Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDAs) so they could see Rambus' work and used bits and pieces to avoid paying Rambus royalties?

 

[Azurik]

Read something a little more trustworthy

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2006/08/rambus.shtm

They participated in JEDEC activities for over 4 years without disclosing their activities.

1. Micron cried to the FTC to press legal charges against Rambus. The FTC commission are cronies. It's hard to have a fair shake at the FTC when they are the judge and the jury.

2. The lead judge overturned the FTC decision and stated that the FTC had "stepped too far". The FTC didn't listen to the judge and again the full FTC commision found Rambus guilty and tried to force extremely low rates on Rambus. Rambus appealed to the appeal court and again the FTC got slapped down. The FTC petitioned to the U.S. Supreme Court, but they denied a hearing.

 

[Attic]

This sounds pretty goddamned pathetic. Not a fan of nVidia's tactics, but Rambus sounds out of line on this lawsuit tirade they're on.

Edit: Interesting points Azurik.