US: 'Inescapable' movement to Palestinian state

[JEDIYoda]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200..._eu/ml_mideast_clinton

JERUSALEM ? U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton promised Tuesday to work with the incoming Israeli government, but delivered a clear message that could put her at odds with the country's next leader: Movement toward the establishment of a Palestinian state is "inescapable."

Clinton also said the U.S. would soon send two envoys to Syria. It was the most significant sign yet that the Obama administration is ready to mend relations with the Damascus regime. The U.S. withdrew its ambassador in 2005, accusing Syria of supporting terrorism.

"We have no way to predict what the future with our relations concerning Syria might be," Clinton said. "There has to be some perceived benefit of doing so for the United States and our allies and our shared values. But I think it is a worthwhile effort to go and begin these preliminary conversations."

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I agree with that premise that a Palestinian State "probably" is inescapable.
What form that state takes is yet open to interpretation!!

I agree with the premise that we should talk before flexing our percieved muscle!!

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200..._eu/ml_mideast_clinton

JERUSALEM ? U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton promised Tuesday to work with the incoming Israeli government, but delivered a clear message that could put her at odds with the country's next leader: Movement toward the establishment of a Palestinian state is "inescapable."

Clinton also said the U.S. would soon send two envoys to Syria. It was the most significant sign yet that the Obama administration is ready to mend relations with the Damascus regime. The U.S. withdrew its ambassador in 2005, accusing Syria of supporting terrorism.

"We have no way to predict what the future with our relations concerning Syria might be," Clinton said. "There has to be some perceived benefit of doing so for the United States and our allies and our shared values. But I think it is a worthwhile effort to go and begin these preliminary conversations."

#############################

I agree with that premise that a Palestinian State "probably" is inescapable.
What fiorm that state takes is yet open to interporetation!!

I agree with the premise that we should talk before flexing our percieved muscle!!

Can someone interporetate what the OP is trying to say?

 

[CLite]

Originally posted by: JS80
Can someone interporetate what the OP is trying to say?

drugs are bad?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: JS80
Can someone interporetate what the OP is trying to say?

actually can you add something meaningful to this thread other than trolling for a higher post count! Thx

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
-snip-
I agree with the premise that we should talk before flexing our percieved muscle!!

I think the wisdom of that approach, the usefullness of that approach, depends upon who you are dealing with.

But from the perspective of curiosity, it will be interesting to see how this works out with Syria.

Fern

 

[ProfJohn]

I think the only long term solution is a two state solution, or getting Jordan and Egypt to take Gaza and the West Bank back into their countries.

We can't continue with endless occupied territories, just doesn't work.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: JS80
Can someone interporetate what the OP is trying to say?

Interporetate?

I know you'll say that was intentional but it wasn't.

I got the OP just fine, it must be your thick skull getting in the way of you doing the same.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200..._eu/ml_mideast_clinton

JERUSALEM ? U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton promised Tuesday to work with the incoming Israeli government, but delivered a clear message that could put her at odds with the country's next leader: Movement toward the establishment of a Palestinian state is "inescapable."

Clinton also said the U.S. would soon send two envoys to Syria. It was the most significant sign yet that the Obama administration is ready to mend relations with the Damascus regime. The U.S. withdrew its ambassador in 2005, accusing Syria of supporting terrorism.

"We have no way to predict what the future with our relations concerning Syria might be," Clinton said. "There has to be some perceived benefit of doing so for the United States and our allies and our shared values. But I think it is a worthwhile effort to go and begin these preliminary conversations."

#############################

I agree with that premise that a Palestinian State "probably" is inescapable.
What form that state takes is yet open to interpretation!!

I agree with the premise that we should talk before flexing our percieved muscle!!

I'm kinda reluctant to make statement on the issue but i agree the two state solution is the only viable solution and therefore i believe Isreael should give up the occupied territories on the west bank and ask the UN (in the long run, it might take NATO troops in the beginning) for help to protect it's borders.

I think that is the only viable solution to this problem.

OTOH, if the problem persists with rockets into civilian areas i am all for a complete and total occupation.

 

[Genx87]

Back to the two state solution eh? See you in another 8 when this fails. What is this year 40 on trying to find a solution to this mess?

Glad we are spending nearly 1 billion of tax payers dollar fixing Hama's mess.

 

[RichardE]

Everyone knows there will be a two state solution, the only people who still denounce that possibility are the super far right in Israel and people who are delusional.

What people don't understand, is that the people of Palestine will have to show they can be trusted as a state not to be aggressive to Israel before Israel allows them to become a state.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: RichardE
Everyone knows there will be a two state solution, the only people who still denounce that possibility are the super far right in Israel and people who are delusional.

What people don't understand, is that the people of Palestine will have to show they can be trusted as a state not to be aggressive to Israel before Israel allows them to become a state.

Bwahaha and Israel can be trusted? You should take a look at their new settlement plans. We can also see how the number of settlements grew over the the entire 90s and now through most of the first decade of 2000s. Israel cannot be trusted either.
You should also note that Netanyahu - the next PM who is going to lead a far right govt - is 100% opposed to a Palestinian State. His idea of 'Palestine' is a series of irregular, tiny blocks of land that are ruled by Israel. Clinton's remarks in 95 that Palestine should be a full fledged nation in its own right was quickly rebuffed by him.
If you've been paying attention to the news, none of "bibi"'s views has changed. In fact he has come out specifically against any type of political settlement and prefers an 'economic one'. The funny part is that even Fatah - coming out of the recent conference in Egypt stated that these economic solutions are incomplete and they MUST be accompanied by political solutions or else we will never see progress...which is entirely true

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: RichardE
Everyone knows there will be a two state solution, the only people who still denounce that possibility are the super far right in Israel and people who are delusional.

What people don't understand, is that the people of Palestine will have to show they can be trusted as a state not to be aggressive to Israel before Israel allows them to become a state.

My impression is that they (those who don't believe in the possibility of a 2 state solution) understand that just fine.

I also believe that they think the Palestinians demonstrating they can be trusted is what is delusional.

I guess what I'm saying is that if those not accepting a 2 state solution are delusional, so are those who believe the Palestinians can demonstrate trustworthiness.

Personally, I couldn't be more pessimistic about any resolution in this matter.

But I'll follow along with what Hillary/Obama et al are attempting if only for the curiousity factor.

Fern

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Back to the two state solution eh? See you in another 8 when this fails. What is this year 40 on trying to find a solution to this mess?

Glad we are spending nearly 1 billion of tax payers dollar fixing Hama's mess.

That should read: funding Hamas.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: RichardE
Everyone knows there will be a two state solution, the only people who still denounce that possibility are the super far right in Israel and people who are delusional.

What people don't understand, is that the people of Palestine will have to show they can be trusted as a state not to be aggressive to Israel before Israel allows them to become a state.

It takes 2 sides for a 2 state to happen. How can you have 2 states if the palestinians don't want 2 states?

 

[Lemon law]

Right now, the question is can Netanyahu even form a government out of anything but a deeply divided hodge podge of fringe parties all opposed to any sort of Palestinian State?

And on the flip side, the Palestinians are now fractured into a Gaza and West Bank factions.

In short, is there anyone for Clinton to really talk to?

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: RichardE
Everyone knows there will be a two state solution, the only people who still denounce that possibility are the super far right in Israel and people who are delusional.

What people don't understand, is that the people of Palestine will have to show they can be trusted as a state not to be aggressive to Israel before Israel allows them to become a state.

Bwahaha and Israel can be trusted? You should take a look at their new settlement plans. We can also see how the number of settlements grew over the the entire 90s and now through most of the first decade of 2000s. Israel cannot be trusted either.
You should also note that Netanyahu - the next PM who is going to lead a far right govt - is 100% opposed to a Palestinian State. His idea of 'Palestine' is a series of irregular, tiny blocks of land that are ruled by Israel. Clinton's remarks in 95 that Palestine should be a full fledged nation in its own right was quickly rebuffed by him.
If you've been paying attention to the news, none of "bibi"'s views has changed. In fact he has come out specifically against any type of political settlement and prefers an 'economic one'. The funny part is that even Fatah - coming out of the recent conference in Egypt stated that these economic solutions are incomplete and they MUST be accompanied by political solutions or else we will never see progress...which is entirely true

Never said Israel had issues did I?

As it stands thought Israel has and will continue to dictate terms in this part of the world for the forseable future so as it stands, Israel gets to dictate the terms upon which the Palestinian state will have to be formed. You might not like it, Israel might not be doing it all the right way, it might not be fair to everyone, but that is how it is, and how it will conclude.


On a side note, no 2 state solution will occur with Net in power. This is the result of the world condemnation you all heaped on Israel forcing it to turn inward for support in what it saw as a war against itself. Everyone sitting here in there comfy chairs with there worst fear being maybe loosing there job and collecting unemployment not having to wonder if missiles will hit there kids school today. The US went through a period like this, it was in the late 40's and 50's, remember the extremes people were willing to go too? Either way, the world scorn forced Israel to adopt nationalism policies due to the lack of world support from really *anyone* so this is the beautifully baby you all created. Congratulations dumbfucks, maybe one day you will realize there are two sides to each battle.


P&N reminds me of the bullshit Social Justice club at my campus who staged a "Stop Israel bombs" campaign. When I asked them what about the Hamas rockets they stated "Those are a lie created by the zionist news".

Yeah, people in the world are fucked up, I am personally glad that Israel has opened up ties with Russia and China, Israel is, and will stay in control of the sphere of power in that region until another massive war.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: RichardE
Everyone knows there will be a two state solution, the only people who still denounce that possibility are the super far right in Israel and people who are delusional.

What people don't understand, is that the people of Palestine will have to show they can be trusted as a state not to be aggressive to Israel before Israel allows them to become a state.

My impression is that they (those who don't believe in the possibility of a 2 state solution) understand that just fine.

I also believe that they think the Palestinians demonstrating they can be trusted is what is delusional.

I guess what I'm saying is that if those not accepting a 2 state solution are delusional, so are those who believe the Palestinians can demonstrate trustworthiness.

Personally, I couldn't be more pessimistic about any resolution in this matter.

But I'll follow along with what Hillary/Obama et al are attempting if only for the curiousity factor.

Fern

You make good points and with the current coalition in power,t he changes of a two state are dim. I only *pray* that Hilary and Obama keep the current political party from moving fascist right and manage to make the people of Israel feel at least like they have one friend in the world so they don't think they have to do it all alone.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Right now, the question is can Netanyahu even form a government out of anything but a deeply divided hodge podge of fringe parties all opposed to any sort of Palestinian State?

And on the flip side, the Palestinians are now fractured into a Gaza and West Bank factions.

In short, is there anyone for Clinton to really talk to?

Clintons goal atm is to keep Israel from moving any further right. That is pretty much all she can do. These seeds were sowed from the last 8 years.

 

[0marTheZealot]

Both sides are wrong in this conflict and they keep feeding off each other.

Israel cannot win because it lacks the stomach to do what is necessary at this moment. The Palestinians cannot win because they don't have the weapons to achieve victory.

Both sides need to stop the rhetoric and compromise. Unfortunately, even when they do compromise, all it takes is one incident and the entire region is back into the old modes. Either Hamas will shoot rockets into Israel or Israel will launch an airstrike and once again, there's violence in the Holy Land.

I don't know what it will take to break this cycle.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Both sides are wrong in this conflict and they keep feeding off each other.

Israel cannot win because it lacks the stomach to do what is necessary at this moment. The Palestinians cannot win because they don't have the weapons to achieve victory.

Both sides need to stop the rhetoric and compromise. Unfortunately, even when they do compromise, all it takes is one incident and the entire region is back into the old modes. Either Hamas will shoot rockets into Israel or Israel will launch an airstrike and once again, there's violence in the Holy Land.

I don't know what it will take to break this cycle.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gotta some what agree with Omar here, but what we fail to realize that this has been the same metric for 60 years now, and each and every year since 1948, Israel continues to gain more and more land, leaving less and less room for any possible Palestinian State.

At this point, is any Palestinian State even possible without the entire international community stepping in and telling Israel that they must surrender their ill gotten gains?

Otherwise some sort of Palestinian assimilation by Israel is the only other alternative. Actually the Hamas and Hezbollah advocated solution in which Israel ceases to be a purely Jewish State, and must grant equal rights to all.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Both sides are wrong in this conflict and they keep feeding off each other.

Israel cannot win because it lacks the stomach to do what is necessary at this moment. The Palestinians cannot win because they don't have the weapons to achieve victory.

Both sides need to stop the rhetoric and compromise. Unfortunately, even when they do compromise, all it takes is one incident and the entire region is back into the old modes. Either Hamas will shoot rockets into Israel or Israel will launch an airstrike and once again, there's violence in the Holy Land.

I don't know what it will take to break this cycle.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gotta some what agree with Omar here, but what we fail to realize that this has been the same metric for 60 years now, and each and every year since 1948, Israel continues to gain more and more land, leaving less and less room for any possible Palestinian State.

At this point, is any Palestinian State even possible without the entire international community stepping in and telling Israel that they must surrender their ill gotten gains?

Otherwise some sort of Palestinian assimilation by Israel is the only other alternative. Actually the Hamas and Hezbollah advocated solution in which Israel ceases to be a purely Jewish State, and must grant equal rights to all.

oh boohoo Lemon.......again you spin facts top support your claims....
For starters you say --
Israel continues to gain more and more land, leaving less and less room for any possible Palestinian State. <--- you fail to mention until they give it away! Which they have been doing over and over in now in overtures of peace!

At this point, is any Palestinian State even possible without the entire international community stepping in and telling Israel that they must surrender their ill gotten gains?

Lets see ill gotten gains translates into spoils of war??
Then lets see give me some of what you are smokin......
It`s laughable to hear you claim that the international communitie should get involved...especially using your own words -- Ill gotten gain...rofl..hahaha..yeah right...rofl

 

[Lemon law]

JEDIYoda, under the UN charter there is no such thing as the spoils of war and giving back the Sinai desert back to Egypt can hardly be called a land giveaway, especially since the Sinai desert can't support any people. Meanwhile Israel keep adding settlements in the West Bank which is the act of taking back land they set aside for peace.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
JEDIYoda, under the UN charter there is no such thing as the spoils of war and giving back the Sinai desert back to Egypt can hardly be called a land giveaway, especially since the Sinai desert can't support any people. Meanwhile Israel keep adding settlements in the West Bank which is the act of taking back land they set aside for peace.

Now, had the Palestinians been willing to support peace for the first 40 years of an Israeli state, they would have had their own state.
They instead wanted a land grab and played the wrong hand.

The problems with peace are currently comming from the Gaza/Hamas area.

Does Hamas want peace for all Palestinians?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
JEDIYoda, under the UN charter there is no such thing as the spoils of war and giving back the Sinai desert back to Egypt can hardly be called a land giveaway, especially since the Sinai desert can't support any people. Meanwhile Israel keep adding settlements in the West Bank which is the act of taking back land they set aside for peace.

Sinai gives access to the Suez canal.