US 'in Denial' over Poor Maths Standards

[biostud]

Well, now I feel ashamed of myself. I was trying to be ironic, but ended up being an asshole. My wife is Chinese and she can barely speak, let alone write, English. So I understand what a struggle learning a new language is. I'm sorry.

Anyway, my second comment was addressed at your phrase


What you intended to say is that - rather than teaching to the test - schools (not "you") should be teaching (not "learning") useful skills.

Ok, but actually I am a teacher so the "you" was addressed towards teachers, including my self.

When we get new types of tests, you have to prepare the students for the new type of test. Do they have limited time, is it multiple choice, oral, do they have to write mutliple sentences etc.

But since the real world isn't a row of multiple choice test, having too many test diminishes time used for teaching "real world" skills. Of course some tests are needed, but too many ruins teaching.

 

[Spungo]

According to all the resident lefties here, CA is a utopia and texas is the pits. How can this be? Arent CA students thought by the some of the strongest and most unionized teachers in the USA?

The people smart enough to do math moved to Texas for the lower taxes. The people without jobs stayed behind.

unemployment rate

But since the real world isn't a row of multiple choice test, having too many test diminishes time used for teaching "real world" skills. Of course some tests are needed, but too many ruins teaching.

wtf? Back in my day (gen Y?), we had homework every day. Most classes from grade 7 to 12 would give maybe 1 page of homework and it always had to be handed in at the beginning of class because setting the deadline at the end of that class resulted in kids doing yesterday's homework during today's class.

 

[biostud]

The people smart enough to do math moved to Texas for the lower taxes. The people without jobs stayed behind.

unemployment rate


wtf? Back in my day (gen Y?), we had homework every day. Most classes from grade 7 to 12 would give maybe 1 page of homework and it always had to be handed in at the beginning of class because setting the deadline at the end of that class resulted in kids doing yesterday's homework during today's class.

I've never experienced either, but that's probably because or systems are quite different.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Rest of world in denial that Math ends in an "s"

Also you attend a University. You are at

Not Uni.

That it's all.

This from the country that calls it "aluminum" and whose Presidents pronounce it "nucular".

 

[Mai72]

What's the end result?

Will our children become unemployed? Will they need government assistance because they lack the skills necessary to compete in today's competitive environment?

What's going to happen to America? Will we see a slow and steady decline in our way of life ?

 

[LegendKiller]

OECD Pisa tests are for 15-year olds. This is before people choose between gymnasium and trade school so the test applies to the entire pupil population, not just to a selected group. It is apples to apples.

It is?


I had the order of the abitur turned around, but the point otherwise stands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:German_School_system.svg

 

[Pulsar]

Not surprising at all, we haven't been teaching students so that they understand math for I don't know how long. We teach memorizing a simple process to get the answer, while giving almost no understanding of what is being done or what CAN be done. Thus you end up with those who can ONLY do math using that process

Really?

That's amazing.

Because until common core came along, our education system has been pretty much unchanged in mathematics for the last 100 years. Example, problem, repeat until learned.

So why did a 'simple process' work for so long, but suddenly is failing so badly?

I'll give you a hint.

Fucking PARENTS.

 

[TROLLERCAUST]

It is?


I had the order of the abitur turned around, but the point otherwise stands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:German_School_system.svg

I meant the Finnish system, sorry. Comprehensive school is nine grades so when school starts at the age of seven you can finish that when you're 15 or 16. After that you choose between gymnasium and trade school or none, it's voluntary. For Germany I'm too lazy to check it out but I'd guess they tested both types of schools to get a result representing the whole population. Otherwise what's the point of the test at all?

 

[piasabird]

What kind of higher math do you use on a daily basis? What good is it for most people?

 

[Spungo]

This from the country that calls it "aluminum" and whose Presidents pronounce it "nucular".

Nucular drives me nuts. I immediately assume someone is inbred when they say that.

What kind of higher math do you use on a daily basis? What good is it for most people?

I use math up to grade 12 all the time. Past grade 12, it gets really sketchy. Here are some math things I do all the time that have nothing to do with my job:
-reading or writing fractions (the media loves using fractions)
-adding or subtracting fractions (stupid imperial unit system uses fractions of inches)
-exponential equations to demonstrate compound growth (investments)
-logarithmic equations to calculative growth rate (investments)
-understanding, but not calculating, the concepts of moving average, standard deviation, root mean square, and bell curves (investments)
-understanding how probability works (give meaning to statistics)

People don't realize how much math and statistics affect our future projections, and this lack of understanding can lead us into trouble. I'll use retirement as an example. Suppose someone says you should start saving for retirement. You say you'll do it next year. What difference does it make if you invest $5000 today vs $5000 next year? If you understand math, you'll realize the difference is huge. One year is the difference between 40 years of exponential compounding vs 41 years of exponential compounding.

Being terrible at math would explain why so many Americans are drowning in debt and have no retirement savings. It also explains why we seem to elect the most retarded politicians who think deficits don't matter and printing money doesn't cause inflation.

 

[Subyman]

I think it has to do with our value systems. I see many kids and their parents say that math is really hard and they won't end up needing it in life anyway. As if you should only learn something that will be beneficial to survival, culture would be dead if that was the case. I think there is a mental barrier that goes up with students when anything math related is discussed and it comes from their parents.

 

[waggy]

My personal thoughts on this.

the amount of homework given to kids Is not the reason we are lower. Studies have show that another 3-4 hours of homework a night is not going to make a difference. In fact to much homework may actually have an negative impact on kids.

I think the big issue with kids is a few things.

1) how we teach kids. We are looking for a FAST and EASY way to teach kids. Since about the 70's they have kept trying to find better ways to teach. each one worse then the other.

2) The amount of classes kids have. Even in elementary school kids have a bunch of classes. so many that they only go to them every other day so they can fit in EVERY class they have.

Also i am a big supporter of year around school. Some states have it and i have always thought it was better for the kids. having a huge time off is not great for some kids.

 

[Paul98]

look at how many people can not get the correct answer to something as simple as 1+1+1+1+1*0+1 and you will see why we need get better at teaching math.

 

[hans030390]

I use math up to grade 12 all the time. Past grade 12, it gets really sketchy. Here are some math things I do all the time that have nothing to do with my job:
-reading or writing fractions (the media loves using fractions)
-adding or subtracting fractions (stupid imperial unit system uses fractions of inches)
-exponential equations to demonstrate compound growth (investments)
-logarithmic equations to calculative growth rate (investments)
-understanding, but not calculating, the concepts of moving average, standard deviation, root mean square, and bell curves (investments)
-understanding how probability works (give meaning to statistics)

While this is practical stuff to know (and is unfortunate that not all have a good graph on these things), isn't most of this below what 12th graders should be learning in math classes? My view might be skewed since I was taking Calculus by 12th grade, so I could be wrong.

 

[biostud]

When I teach math in 7-10th grade there's obviously some who doesn't like math and don't understand why they need to learn, and there's also some who loves math because of the "simplicity": either it's right or it's wrong.

I can understand why those who doesn't like math find it hard to understand why they need to learn about things like trigonometry, since most of us are not going to use in our daily life. For those who are not going to study at a university or going to work within engineering, natural science or similar, I try to talk about other good reasons why mathematics are good to learn:

-It exercises the brain.
-You learn to make deductions based on logic.
-You need to understand how to make budgets, loans and taxes, if you want the most of your hard earned money
-Be critic about statistics presented to you
-Don't be outsmarted by someone giving yo "good" advise
-It's another way of understanding the world around you.

 

[cyclohexane]

a large portion of the US is in denial of facts. When ~50% of the population can't seem to understand climate change or evolution, how do you expect them to understand math?

 

[boomerang]

a large portion of the US is in denial of facts. When ~50% of the population can't seem to understand climate change or evolution, how do you expect them to understand math?

Clearly, you've nailed the problem. Believe my dogma over your dogma and you're part way there. Let me guess, throwing more money at education will seal the deal?

 

[indy2878]

I think it has to do with our value systems. I see many kids and their parents say that math is really hard and they won't end up needing it in life anyway. As if you should only learn something that will be beneficial to survival, culture would be dead if that was the case. I think there is a mental barrier that goes up with students when anything math related is discussed and it comes from their parents.

You hit the nail on the head! Its not just parents, but also teachers and student peers in school constantly preaching negativity (even on society especially these days) reinforce a "bad math student" just "doesn't have it"...

I should know, because I used to be on the complete bottom of my high school class even in my remedial math courses and was constantly told I don't have the genetics for math.... Now I'm a bit better and do understand how math CAN be applied to everyday life... Just based on the math PROCESS, math procedures and math techniques from math classes can be used in engineering, physics, sociology, computer science courses in school....

@Paul98.... There's only "1" answer to your math problem.... :biggrin:

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

You hit the nail on the head! Its not just parents, but also teachers and student peers in school constantly preaching negativity (even on society especially these days) reinforce a "bad math student" just "doesn't have it"...

I should know, because I used to be on the complete bottom of my high school class even in my remedial math courses and was constantly told I don't have the genetics for math.... Now I'm a bit better and do understand how math CAN be applied to everyday life... Just based on the math PROCESS, math procedures and math techniques from math classes can be used in engineering, physics, sociology, computer science courses in school....

@Paul98.... There's only "1" answer to your math problem.... :biggrin:

It's not just the reinforcement that you have to be genetically gifted to be good at maths. The whole "women aren't good for maths" trend is slowly starting to reverse, but it was a thing only because people kept drumming into girls how they will never be good at STEM subjects. The same kind of reinforcement still goes on for children of low income families of all genders and ethnicities.

All it takes is practice and application. People don't realise these things are more about the method rather than the result - if you aim for method, the results will come naturally, but if you aim for results, you will never get the method and you will never progress.

 

[indy2878]

It's not just the reinforcement that you have to be genetically gifted to be good at maths. The whole "women aren't good for maths" trend is slowly starting to reverse, but it was a thing only because people kept drumming into girls how they will never be good at STEM subjects. The same kind of reinforcement still goes on for children of low income families of all genders and ethnicities.

All it takes is practice and application. People don't realise these things are more about the method rather than the result - if you aim for method, the results will come naturally, but if you aim for results, you will never get the method and you will never progress.

:thumbsup: +10 on making those excellent points! Nobody was born a "math genius".

As far as method goes I agree its all about the process. Understanding and comprehending the math formulas from your school textbook is key and you HAVE to practice AND do your homework everyday as well.

My 2 cents....

 

[realibrad]

All it takes is practice and application. People don't realise these things are more about the method rather than the result - if you aim for method, the results will come naturally, but if you aim for results, you will never get the method and you will never progress.

I hope that Idea is not a general idea to be applied to life. What a scary world where we care about intentions over outcomes...

 

[OCGuy]

This article is BS propaganda for three reasons:

- Source

- Faulty information



So there.

 

[Pulsar]

:thumbsup: +10 on making those excellent points! Nobody was born a "math genius".

As far as method goes I agree its all about the process. Understanding and comprehending the math formulas from your school textbook is key and you HAVE to practice AND do your homework everyday as well.

My 2 cents....

At the age of 4, we were told my son would never learn to speak clearly and that he should learn sign language.

At the age of 7, he was labeled as learning-disabled in math.

At the age of 10, he is on the A-B honor role and has been accepted into advanced placement math and science. He learned how to work hard early, and he learned his attitude from us: it may take a while, but you'll get there. He calls himself the turtle, and does so proudly. When people ask him why, he says because he may not be the fastest, but he ALWAYS gets there.

And he does.

He use to cry about math. But between his mom, and I, and tutors (year round), he no longer fears math. He understands there's a process and he just needs to learn it.

Parents are the reason that children fail in school. They might have been dealt a shitty hand (like my son), they might have crap teachers, they might live in a depressed area. But a hard-working intelligent loving parent who gets that kid the help he needs will win out nearly every single time.

I'm a mentor of a robotics club at the high school, and it's those students I ask to tutor him. Some of them (the 'best and brightest') were also labelled as ADD, or disabled, and in every single case the evidence is the same: their parents are engaged.

 

[werepossum]

Nucular drives me nuts. I immediately assume someone is inbred when they say that.

I use math up to grade 12 all the time. Past grade 12, it gets really sketchy. Here are some math things I do all the time that have nothing to do with my job:
-reading or writing fractions (the media loves using fractions)
-adding or subtracting fractions (stupid imperial unit system uses fractions of inches)
-exponential equations to demonstrate compound growth (investments)
-logarithmic equations to calculative growth rate (investments)
-understanding, but not calculating, the concepts of moving average, standard deviation, root mean square, and bell curves (investments)
-understanding how probability works (give meaning to statistics)

People don't realize how much math and statistics affect our future projections, and this lack of understanding can lead us into trouble. I'll use retirement as an example. Suppose someone says you should start saving for retirement. You say you'll do it next year. What difference does it make if you invest $5000 today vs $5000 next year? If you understand math, you'll realize the difference is huge. One year is the difference between 40 years of exponential compounding vs 41 years of exponential compounding.

Being terrible at math would explain why so many Americans are drowning in debt and have no retirement savings. It also explains why we seem to elect the most retarded politicians who think deficits don't matter and printing money doesn't cause inflation.

Well said. Far too many Americans don't realize that it's not that first year's interest you lose, it's the LAST (and largest) year's interest.

When I teach math in 7-10th grade there's obviously some who doesn't like math and don't understand why they need to learn, and there's also some who loves math because of the "simplicity": either it's right or it's wrong.

I can understand why those who doesn't like math find it hard to understand why they need to learn about things like trigonometry, since most of us are not going to use in our daily life. For those who are not going to study at a university or going to work within engineering, natural science or similar, I try to talk about other good reasons why mathematics are good to learn:

-It exercises the brain.
-You learn to make deductions based on logic.
-You need to understand how to make budgets, loans and taxes, if you want the most of your hard earned money
-Be critic about statistics presented to you
-Don't be outsmarted by someone giving yo "good" advise
-It's another way of understanding the world around you.

Kudos for being part of the solution rather than part of the formula.

At the age of 4, we were told my son would never learn to speak clearly and that he should learn sign language.

At the age of 7, he was labeled as learning-disabled in math.

At the age of 10, he is on the A-B honor role and has been accepted into advanced placement math and science. He learned how to work hard early, and he learned his attitude from us: it may take a while, but you'll get there. He calls himself the turtle, and does so proudly. When people ask him why, he says because he may not be the fastest, but he ALWAYS gets there.

And he does.

He use to cry about math. But between his mom, and I, and tutors (year round), he no longer fears math. He understands there's a process and he just needs to learn it.

Parents are the reason that children fail in school. They might have been dealt a shitty hand (like my son), they might have crap teachers, they might live in a depressed area. But a hard-working intelligent loving parent who gets that kid the help he needs will win out nearly every single time.

I'm a mentor of a robotics club at the high school, and it's those students I ask to tutor him. Some of them (the 'best and brightest') were also labelled as ADD, or disabled, and in every single case the evidence is the same: their parents are engaged.

Thank you for not bringing up another whiny, entitled, government labeled twat and for showing your son that a pound of hard work beats an ounce of natural ability every time.

This is the thing that Asian tiger moms know.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

I hope that Idea is not a general idea to be applied to life. What a scary world where we care about intentions over outcomes...

I never said we care about intentions over outcomes. I said we care about method over outcome, because (as I already said) if you do the method right the outcome follows naturally.