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US: Gap between rich and poor widest on record.

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spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,969
1,679
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too bad we can't accurately separate the poor into those who really trying to better themselves versus the idiots who would rather receive government handouts instead of trying to get a decent job and the 'poor' who have flat screen TV's, iPhones and a $30K car and no money in the bank...My guess is the first group I mentioned would be the smallest...
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
LOL @ the flat screen TV meme.

I don't know if you guys realize this, but all TVs are flat screen now, except huge DLPs. A small flat screen TV costs as little as $150. What exactly do you think it would accomplish if poor people did without one of the primary means of communication in our society? Let me guess, you also think it's bad that they have cell phones and internet access? But not telephone landlines and electricity right?

You know, some of the poor even drive CARS!
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,700
406
126
Extreme wealth concentration is a bigger monster. Government is the only way to prevent that. Too bad we sold it to the rich.

By definition the governments have the monopoly of violence. That is the most powerful weapon.

It has been shown in this thread already that the top incomes pay a proportional tax to their incomes to the federal government.

The government mandate isn't to redistribute wealth or micromanage the free market - it is to enforce the law and make sure everyone can choose to spend their legal income in whatever way they choose to.
 

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
2,184
0
0
By definition the governments have the monopoly of violence. That is the most powerful weapon.

It has been shown in this thread already that the top incomes pay a proportional tax to their incomes to the federal government.

The government mandate isn't to redistribute wealth or micromanage the free market - it is to enforce the law and make sure everyone can choose to spend their legal income in whatever way they choose to.

Government violence? Spare us the scare tactics.

It has been shown many times that the very top incomes pay less proportionally.

The government is owned by the wealthy. They have rigged the game so the real wealth redistribution goes to the top. You can see the results by the growing wealth gap.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
By definition the governments have the monopoly of violence. That is the most powerful weapon.

It has been shown in this thread already that the top incomes pay a proportional tax to their incomes to the federal government.


the people at the very top typically pay a much lower rate than the people right below them.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,700
406
126
Government violence? Spare us the scare tactics.

What scare tactics?

Indeed the government has the monopoly of violence - and that is a good thing. Or would you prefer it was legal for anyone to use force against you?

It has been shown many times that the very top incomes pay less proportionally.

According to the data presented on this thread from http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

In 2007, the top 1 percent of tax returns paid 40.4 percent of all federal individual income taxes and earned 22.8 percent of adjusted gross income. Both of those figures—share of income and share of taxes paid—are significantly higher than they were in 2004 when the top 1 percent earned 19 percent of adjusted gross income (AGI) and paid 36.9 percent of federal individual income taxes.

The government is owned by the wealthy. They have rigged the game so the real wealth redistribution goes to the top. You can see the results by the growing wealth gap.

Another correlation you might like to see is that the size/expenditure of the government also grew alongside the growing wealth gap.
 

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
2,184
0
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What scare tactics?

Indeed the government has the monopoly of violence - and that is a good thing. Or would you prefer it was legal for anyone to use force against you?

WTF? What does that have to do with wealth gap then?


According to the data presented on this thread from http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

The top 1% is the high end of middle class. Try the top .1%. The top .01%. The top 400. They pay less proportionally.

Another correlation you might like to see is that the size/expenditure of the government also grew alongside the growing wealth gap.

So what? You can also correlate it with average temperatures or anything else that has increased over time. All that proves is you don't undestand math.
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,969
1,679
126
LOL @ the flat screen TV meme.

I don't know if you guys realize this, but all TVs are flat screen now, except huge DLPs. A small flat screen TV costs as little as $150. What exactly do you think it would accomplish if poor people did without one of the primary means of communication in our society? Let me guess, you also think it's bad that they have cell phones and internet access? But not telephone landlines and electricity right?

You know, some of the poor even drive CARS!

yeah and some of them driver nicer cars than I do with 21" rims and stereo that u can 2 blocks away...

I should have clarified flat screen as 47" or bigger...you wont find those at $150...

if you can't see the point of my post, there is no use in continuing a discussion with you.

There are some poor people who will remain poor because they do not want to to better themselves. Why work when you can sit on your azz at home and get free cheese from the government?

There are other poor people who have to keep up with Jones by buying large screen TV's, Infiniti G37 coupes, etc...

Not sure if I should laugh or cry when driving through a 'poor' neighbor hood and seeing all of the expensive cars out front...
 

Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
2,184
0
0
yeah and some of them driver nicer cars than I do with 21" rims and stereo that u can 2 blocks away...

I should have clarified flat screen as 47" or bigger...you wont find those at $150...

if you can't see the point of my post, there is no use in continuing a discussion with you.

There are some poor people who will remain poor because they do not want to to better themselves. Why work when you can sit on your azz at home and get free cheese from the government?

There are other poor people who have to keep up with Jones by buying large screen TV's, Infiniti G37 coupes, etc...

Not sure if I should laugh or cry when driving through a 'poor' neighbor hood and seeing all of the expensive cars out front...
Not everyone in a 'poor' neighborhood gets government handouts.
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,969
1,679
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Not everyone in a 'poor' neighborhood gets government handouts.

Hence my earlier comment that this group of people are probably smaller than the other 2 groups of idiots i described...

It is truly disgusting here that people do not want others to be accountable for their actions and bad decision making skills. Instead, they would rather the rich (i.e., probably someone making more than $50K a year in their mind) give as much of their salary to these poor unfortunate souls who have been on welfare for several generations or would rather have nice things than save for their future and budget properly...
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
The top 1% is the high end of middle class. Try the top .1%. The top .01%. The top 400. They pay less proportionally.

i dunno about the 98th percentile still being middle class, but i agree with the rest. as you start getting into fractions of the top 1% of income, the rate paid by those start decreasing.


further that number used AGI, which is just tax speak for 'not all income accounted for here' (you can have huge income but negative AGI, this is where the AMT comes in)
 
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Ldir

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2003
2,184
0
0
Hence my earlier comment that this group of people are probably smaller than the other 2 groups of idiots i described...

It is truly disgusting here that people do not want others to be accountable for their actions and bad decision making skills. Instead, they would rather the rich (i.e., probably someone making more than $50K a year in their mind) give as much of their salary to these poor unfortunate souls who have been on welfare for several generations or would rather have nice things than save for their future and budget properly...

LOL! That is propaganda. You don't know much about taxes if you think most goes to poor neighborhoods.
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,969
1,679
126
LOL! That is propaganda. You don't know much about taxes if you think most goes to poor neighborhoods.

do you not have a fvkcin problem with deadbeats out there scamming the system to get money that should be going to people who deserve it? or in your opinion, they deserve every cent they can get their hands on because they man continues to put them down???

I still remember when I was a sacker at a grocery store back in the 80's where black families would buy all of their groceries with food stamps (wonder how long it will take before some calls me a racist even though it was mostly black families that we noticed doing this), then pull out a wad of hundred dollar bills to pay for their beer and cigarettes. After loading two carts of groceries in their new car (usually a cadillac or nice buick), they would not leave a tip (at that time, it was okay to tip sackers at this grocery store)....all of the sackers made this same observation so it was not just me...
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
1,307
0
0
do you not have a fvkcin problem with deadbeats out there scamming the system to get money that should be going to people who deserve it? or in your opinion, they deserve every cent they can get their hands on because they man continues to put them down???

What about all those Corporations and rich people out there scamming the system or even better yet paying politicians to change the system (aka laws) to benefit them?
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
do you not have a fvkcin problem with deadbeats out there scamming the system to get money that should be going to people who deserve it? or in your opinion, they deserve every cent they can get their hands on because they man continues to put them down???

I still remember when I was a sacker at a grocery store back in the 80's where black families would buy all of their groceries with food stamps (wonder how long it will take before some calls me a racist even though it was mostly black families that we noticed doing this), then pull out a wad of hundred dollar bills to pay for their beer and cigarettes. After loading two carts of groceries in their new car (usually a cadillac or nice buick), they would not leave a tip (at that time, it was okay to tip sackers at this grocery store)....all of the sackers made this same observation so it was not just me...

Hundred dollah billz y'all!!
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
I still remember when I was a sacker at a grocery store back in the 80's where black families would buy all of their groceries with food stamps (wonder how long it will take before some calls me a racist even though it was mostly black families that we noticed doing this), then pull out a wad of hundred dollar bills to pay for their beer and cigarettes. After loading two carts of groceries in their new car (usually a cadillac or nice buick), they would not leave a tip (at that time, it was okay to tip sackers at this grocery store)....all of the sackers made this same observation so it was not just me...
So you're angry that black people know how to use the system as intended?

The rules are quite simple. Here they are:
-If you qualify for government aid, you should apply for it.
-If you do not qualify, do not apply
-If you qualify but choose not to apply, you are officially retarded

I love the people who qualify stuff but don't apply for it. Can you imagine turning 65 then saying you don't want medicare or social security payments? That's basically what you're doing when you don't apply for programs that you qualify for.
 
Dec 30, 2004
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Is there any reason why the gap matters, and not objective comparisons? Is real life for the poor getting better or worse compared to what it used to be? This is all that matters, not their wealth in relation to the rich.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
WTF? What does that have to do with wealth gap then?




The top 1% is the high end of middle class. Try the top .1%. The top .01%. The top 400. They pay less proportionally.



So what? You can also correlate it with average temperatures or anything else that has increased over time. All that proves is you don't undestand math.

What the hell world do you live in where the top 1% is in the middle?

Elementary statistics fail.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Is there any reason why the gap matters, and not objective comparisons? Is real life for the poor getting better or worse compared to what it used to be? This is all that matters, not their wealth in relation to the rich.

Ironically, this is the exact argument which *should* be made a feudal lord, and not by anyone who believes in economic freedom.
 

SickBeast

Lifer
Jul 21, 2000
14,377
19
81
People who talk about how in the 50's only the man would have to work are neglecting to notice all of the ways in which technology has improved our quality of life today.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
Is there any reason why the gap matters, and not objective comparisons? Is real life for the poor getting better or worse compared to what it used to be? This is all that matters, not their wealth in relation to the rich.

The gap is important because your expectations are based on what everyone else has. If everyone gets 2 pieces of pie and you only get 1 piece of pie, you'll be pissed off. If everyone has no pie and you have 1 piece of pie, you'll be very happy with your 1 piece of pie. Relative poverty is extremely important.

There's a fairly well recognized correlation between the poverty rate and the crime rate. If poor people feel like they have nothing to lose, then they'll act like they have nothing to lose. You would never dream of robbing a liquor store with a gun just to get $50 since you have so much stuff to lose, but poor people will do that.

Why should you care about the poverty rate? Because middle class people generally don't carjack you or break into your house. Poor people do. More poor people = more crime.

http://capaassociation.org/newsletter_N009/Articles/PovertyCrime.htm
A study by McClatchy Newspapers, released in March finds that the ranks of the severely impoverished are rapidly escalating. The study found that the percentage of poor Americans who are living in extreme poverty has reached a 32-year high. Today nearly 16 million Americans live in “deep or severe poverty.” This is defined as individuals living at half of the federal poverty line. This drastic rise in the level of poverty extends beyond the traditional ghetto and reaches to suburban and rural communities.

The relationship between poverty and crime has been a controversial subject over the years. Many scholars argue that poverty does not have a causal relationship to crime because there are countries in which poverty is very high but the crime rate is relatively low. I would say that in this country it would be hard to argue that there is not a relationship between crime and poverty. Poor people make up the overwhelming majority of those behind bars as 53% of those in prison earned less than $10,000 per year before incarceration.

Sociologist and criminal justice scholars have found a direct correlation between poverty and crime. One economic theory of crime assumes that people weigh the consequences of committing crime. They resort to crime only if the cost or consequences are outweighed by the potential benefits to be gained (ie people with nothing to lose will risk everything). The logical conclusion to this theory is that people living in poverty are far more likely to commit property crimes such as burglary, larceny, or theft.

The rising levels of poverty, then, should alarm those of us engaged in ministry to prisoners, ex-prisoners and their families. It follows that as goes the poverty rates, so go the crime rates and subsequently the prison rates. If the relationship between poverty rates and crime rates holds, and I suspect that it will, we can expect to be faced with the challenge of ministering to even higher numbers of inmates and former inmates. Those of us who minister to men and women in transition from prison and the families of inmates can expect to have our meager resources taxed to the limit.

The city of Detroit, in which I live and work, is the poorest large city in America. Michigan has the nation’s worst economy of any state. Detroit has the poorest economy in Michigan. The neighborhood in which this ministry is located is one of Detroit’s poorest. I see first hand every day the effects of poverty and crime. In an environment of extreme poverty, system failures abound. For instance, Detroit Public Schools graduate only between 25-40% of its students depending on which report you believe (because desperate people don't give a shit about education). Low education rates, by the way, are also linked to high crime rates.

Establishing satisfying employment and economic well-being are important factors for successful reintegration from prison to the community. We who are engaged in this ministry are being forced to be more innovative than we ever have been in order to effectively minister to former prisoners and their families. We must identify considerably more resources than ever. We must reach out to a wider network of supporters than ever before to make our case for support.

Ironically, as the numbers of those in extreme poverty has increased so has the number of those who have become wealthy. Bridges need to be formed between those who minister in cities and other impoverished areas with meager resources and those who possess significant financial resources. Those who are interested in helping must adopt the attitude of teaching people how to fish instead of passing out fish sandwiches if persistent problems such as crime and poverty are to be effectively addressed.

All of society benefits when the least of these are helped to establish or regain dignity by elevation from poverty and crime to lives characterized by work and productivity. It will take all of us working together to make a real impact on this daunting problem.

I have articulated this issue so far in the framework of a serious social problem. It is however, also a most pressing spiritual problem. In Isaiah 61:1, a Messianic prophecy, the prophet writes on behalf of the coming Messiah, “The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to preach the good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners.” Jumping to the New Testament we see that in Luke 4:18, Jesus uses this passage as the text for His first sermon.

It gives me great hope and joy, then, when I realize that I am joining with Christ in His ministry to the poor, the heartbroken and the prisoner. I am also possessed with the confidence that as we work together as the Body of Christ that, even though, the poor will always be with us, that we can make a significant impact on this problem.

Your servant because of Christ, (LOL :awe: )
Joseph Williams
President of CAPA
 
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3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
People who talk about how in the 50's only the man would have to work are neglecting to notice all of the ways in which technology has improved our quality of life today.
You're right:

It's made things so much easier and more efficient that it now takes two incomes to put food on the table for fewer children:p
 

jackace

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2004
1,307
0
0
Is there any reason why the gap matters, and not objective comparisons? Is real life for the poor getting better or worse compared to what it used to be? This is all that matters, not their wealth in relation to the rich.

Because history shows that the ever increasing gaps leads to instability in the overall economy.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
You're right:

It's made things so much easier and more efficient that it now takes two incomes to put food on the table for fewer children:p
To be fair, many of the costs associated with children are self inflicted. I'll give an example. Did you know that it was common for babies to wear cloth diapers? Seriously. My parents still own the diapers that my brother and I both wore. It's basically just a piece of white cloth that you secure using a safety pin. Parents can still buy cloth diapers, but the ones made today are much better than the ones from the past. They were actually cut from a pattern rather than just being a rectangle of cloth! Some of them even have snaps.
I don't have any kids so I can't accurately say what it costs to use disposable diapers all the time. Some quick googling says it costs between $1000-$2000 per baby until they stop using diapers. What do cloth rags cost? Maybe $10 if you round up, and that's a one time expensive; you re-use the same diapers with every child.

Food is another one. Rice and pasta are basically free. A $10 bag of rice can feed an army. Eating at McDonalds? Try about $3-5 per child per meal. $5-10 per adult.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
What the hell world do you live in where the top 1% is in the middle?

Elementary statistics fail.

if you go by a more classic definition of what you do for a living defining your economic class, they very well could be. doctors, lawyers, and shopkeepers (small business owners) are traditionally middle class, and many of them could be at the upper end of the 98th percentile and the lower end of the 99th percentile. technically fund managers, as people who make their money handling others' wealth, would also be middle class as they're knowledge workers. and i bet they are overrepresented in the 99th percentile.