US: Gap between rich and poor widest on record.

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dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
US: Gap between rich and poor widest on record.

Income is irrelevant.

Lower the wage floors and more companies can hire more people.

Making $4/hr is a lot better than making $0/hr.

It is evident by the majority Elite posters in here how much they hate this country.

At least they are in the open about it now.

That's not changing anything until the serfs revolt against their asses.

It's coming and not soon enough.
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
Nope. For me, someone is typically "middle class" when they have a bachelors degree, working a desk job, 80 hours every two weeks (10-80 or 9-80), salaried with annual bonus, and are in supervisory positions or lower. Someone who is "upper middle class" is same as above, but have a graduate degree, and are in mid-manager to manager type positions. Are there exceptions to these rules? Sure.

You're being ridiculous, so typical of an ATOT response. Education, job title, or even hours worked has nothing to do with which class you are in.

How much does a person make? That's what determines their class setting. NOTHING else.

Lebron James has no college degree and works 3 hours a night 3 to 4 nights a week, for 8 months out of the year. Does that make him a part time employed lower class person?
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
That's not changing anything until the serfs revolt against their asses.

"This country" was built by the rich. Take away the rich, and what do you have? The Soviet Union.

Take a look at the skyline of NY. That wasn't built by non profit organizations.
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
Other than the fact that you're wrong and $90K is firmly middle class, even higher paid people often work hourly. I just took a gig as an independent consultant and you damn well bet I'm billing by the hour, and making a very healthy living doing it.

Incorrect. Middle class is blue collar or lower wage white collar, typically uneducated and not suburban.

I get real tired of people stretching to include themselves in the "middle class" category because they want to join in on the "working man's plight" battle cry. That's all it is.

People nearly worship the wealthy and idolize them, yet when it comes to themselves, you're considered an arrogant prick if you even dare consider yourself anything other than middle class. People want to avoid being criticized for having money, so a new class of lower upper class and upper middle class have put themselves in the middle class bracket out of self imposed modesty and downplaying their own position in society. Like it's "cool" to be middle class.

Keep in mind when you say $90k, I assume you mean individual income, not family income. So two parents making 180k combined is middle class?
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
Go ahead and keep thinking that you anti-American SOB

Another day on ATOT. Childish insults.

Freedom is American. Capitalism is freedom. Wealth is built by capitalism. If you're anti-wealth, you're anti-American.

I can use logic. Now you try instead of posting like an typical P&Ner.

Come on, let hear it. How is advocating what the United States was intended for (a nation of free individuals), "Anti-American." Or do you mean this 1960s working man image of America that left wingers have? That's not America.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
"This country" was built by the rich. Take away the rich, and what do you have? The Soviet Union.

Take a look at the skyline of NY. That wasn't built by non profit organizations.

Are you serious? The skyline of NY exists so a bunch of non-rich can work in them to make money for the rich. The rich don't build skyscrapers as monuments to the greatness of America.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding conservatives have about capitalism. The rich don't create jobs. They hire people because it's profitable to do so.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
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Another day on ATOT. Childish insults.

Freedom is American. Capitalism is freedom. Wealth is built by capitalism. If you're anti-wealth, you're anti-American.

I can use logic. Now you try instead of posting like an typical P&Ner.

Come on, let hear it. How is advocating what the United States was intended for (a nation of free individuals), "Anti-American." Or do you mean this 1960s working man image of America that left wingers have? That's not America.

Don't confuse wealth creation with wealth concentration.
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
Are you serious? The skyline of NY exists so a bunch of non-rich can work in them to make money for the rich. The rich don't build skyscrapers as monuments to the greatness of America.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding conservatives have about capitalism. The rich don't create jobs. They hire people because it's profitable to do so.

Without organization of workers, you have nothing. The USSR had construction workers. They have engineers. They had architects. Where were their skyscrapers?

The rich organize, manage, and plan companies, which organize workers to build projects such as this.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
Without organization of workers, you have nothing. The USSR had construction workers. They have engineers. They had architects. Where were their skyscrapers?

The rich organize, manage, and plan companies, which organize workers to build projects such as this.

Since when is being rich a requirement to organize, manage, and plan companies?

Are you telling me the small business owners, who hire the majority of people in this country, are all rich?
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMapleton
Without organization of workers, you have nothing. The USSR had construction workers. They have engineers. They had architects. Where were their skyscrapers?

The rich organize, manage, and plan companies, which organize workers to build projects such as this.



Since when is being rich a requirement to organize, manage, and plan companies?

Are you telling me the small business owners, who hire the majority of people in this country, are all rich?

Forget about it. He is a typical delusion crazed rich radical Republican, there is nothing you can say to undo his delusions.
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
Don't confuse wealth creation with wealth concentration.

If you want to get real philosophical about it, true wealth creation goes back to basic human needs. Food being the biggest one. Then basic materials and then fuels, then skilled services. The "creation" of this wealth comes about when such things are either grown or excavated from the Earth and sold exported. Then you're importing currency/services/foreign goods from other countries in exchange for your basic human goods you sold to them.

But ultimately "wealth creation" only occurs when basic human materials are mined from virgin unclaimed Earth to create and build a society where there was none. So there was true large scale "wealth creation" in existence up until maybe 150 years ago when the last parts of this country were truly settled.

So I guess there is no long any wealth creation in the world, or at least very little because there are few unclaimed parts of the Earth and now money and goods are simply exchanged and wealth is just passed from one side of the world to the other. In our case, to China.
 
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JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
Are you telling me the small business owners, who hire the majority of people in this country, are all rich?

We're talking about build skyscrapers. The rich built these as a symbol to America.

As for small business employing most people in the US, that's a misleading statistic. How do you define "small business"? You an draw the line anywhere to suit your purpose.

Is a company when 10 employees a small business? I bet a company that has 10 employees probably makes a decent living for it's owner, certainly more than enough to put them over "middle class" status. If you own a business with 10 employees and only make $40k, you're a poor businessman.
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
Forget about it. He is a typical delusion crazed rich radical Republican, there is nothing you can say to undo his delusions.

Your posts are a waste of everyone's time unless you have the courage to discuss a topic in a logical and respectful manner, or in your case, the courage to discuss it in the first place. Otherwise, you just log onto your computer everyday, taking time out of your day just to insult people? Wow.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,653
205
106
Huh? I don't even know how to reply.

Warren Buffett doesn't produce anything, is what he has not wealth?

You need capital to create businesses (to produce things). If you want someone to loan you capital, you need to sell them an interest in your business.

The middle class can supply can make these loans, each of them a small bit at a time, to build businesses. This will give them a stake in product producing businesses.

I don't understand why you do not understand.

It is you who does not understand. Investment is a zero sum game. His gain Isis someone else's loss. Its a transfer of wealth, not a creation. Wealth is created when labor converts raw materials into finished products or performs a service.

Investment can not nor will not sustain the middle class. That's the purpose of a labor force. Investment without localized blue collar job increases is merely an undesired shift in wealth not an actual increase.
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
It is you who does not understand. Investment is a zero sum game. His gain Isis someone else's loss. Its a transfer of wealth, not a creation. Wealth is created when labor converts raw materials into finished products or performs a service.

Investment can not nor will not sustain the middle class. That's the purpose of a labor force. Investment without localized blue collar job increases is merely an undesired shift in wealth not an actual increase.

You misunderstand. Wealth is not created when raw materials are put into finished products.

Theoretically wealth is only created when unclaimed land is mined of the Earth for basic human needs (see my post above). When, as you claim, businesses create goods from materials, where did the materials come from? They were bought. It's the farmers and miners that create wealth, alone, and only when it's from land that was acquired without cost.

If a man buys a plot of land to mine for ore, where was there creation of wealth? A fair price was paid for the land in exchange for the rights to mine. The ore was sold to consumers and businesses who already had wealth. The miner acquire wealth that was previously in the hands of the ore buyers. This is a zero sum exchange.

For all intents and purposes, hardly no wealth is actually "created" today, so this is a mute discussion. This is why we are seeing globally a truly zero sum economy, unlike what has been see in the past 500 years with this expansion of wealth in North America, where a society/wealth was created literally out of nothing and not having to had pay for the basic human goods (ore or food) from another person (as the land was not previously owned, although it was occupied, but not utilized), we just claimed land and built a society on it. That's the only form of wealth creation.

As far as investments for the middle class.

I never said the middle class should sustain off of investments, I simply said they should invest to supplement their income. Something most do not do.

There is no reason you cannot work in a factory and then own stock in the company that owns your factory or own real estate or have ownership in a small business. That gives a man two sources of income and a ownership in society and a say so in his future.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
We're talking about build skyscrapers. The rich built these as a symbol to America.

As for small business employing most people in the US, that's a misleading statistic. How do you define "small business"? You an draw the line anywhere to suit your purpose.

Is a company when 10 employees a small business? I bet a company that has 10 employees probably makes a decent living for it's owner, certainly more than enough to put them over "middle class" status. If you own a business with 10 employees and only make $40k, you're a poor businessman.

The last job I had was at a small business. There were 50-100 employees IIRC. Almost all revenue got reinvested and the owners took home very little profit.
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
The last job I had was at a small business. There were 50-100 employees IIRC. Almost all revenue got reinvested and the owners took home very little profit.

Income is not wealth. If they owned a business that employed 100 people, they were millionaires (unless their business was super crappy).

Your previous bosses were rich, yes. They were millionaires. They owned an asset worth millions. How is that not rich?
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
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Income is not wealth. If they owned a business that employed 100 people, they were millionaires (unless their business was super crappy).

Your previous bosses were rich, yes. They were millionaires. They owned an asset worth millions. How is that not rich?

My post with the charts was about wealth, but the OP was about the income gap
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
The world is headed towards the Chinese model. Privileged Owners get 99% of proceeds while workers only get 1% of their labor. Police states. Less freedoms et al.


Many Americans are even on board with it. You hear them sometimes "eliminate minimum wage" "eliminate all environmental laws" or the ever classic "market forces" as if slave wages and destitution are the new Valhalla.

Read this book if you doubt it

http://www.amazon.com/Beijing-Consen...9&sr=8-1-spell

Good review

Stefan Halper's "The Beijing Consensus" summarizes how China's ('The People's Republic of China' - PRC) non-confrontational strategies are changing the world order. For decades the U.S. used its military and economic strength to leverage developing countries into economic and government reform. This worked fine, as long as we were the only game in town. The PRC, however, has now entered the arena and provides a welcome non-judgmental alternative to many struggling nations. This new approach to foreign aid, combined with admiration for China's economic success, is boosting its world influence, as well as access to energy and other natural resources. Meanwhile, China's autocratic leadership is now setting the foundation for future economic successes, and shows no sign of liberalizing; ironically, U.S. economic progress seems hindered by its vaunted democratic processes.

Some Americans have fixated on growing PRC expenditures, now second largest in the world, for modernizing its military. Halper believes this should not be a concern. China is avoiding direct confrontation with the U.S., even though it remains committed to re-unification with Taiwan and the U.S. to preservation of Taiwan's defense. The first reason to not worry is that China does not want the budgetary strain of a military arms race with the U.S., nor the foreign policy atmospherics that would result. Halper sees China's modernizing military as simply motivated via 'just-in-case' Americans get too aggressive, and centers on high-tech, close-in defensive weapons. Halper's second reason for discounting a military threat from the PRC is that Taiwan is no longer the flash-point it once was. The is due to China's confidence that re-unification is inevitable, and its willingness to wait. Meanwhile, trade between the two was $108 billion in 2007 (up 16% from 2006), over one million Taiwanese now live and work in the PRC, contacts have increased through regular mail and commercial flights between the two, and China's economic successes have made it more attractive to those living on Taiwan.

Halper, however, is very much concerned about China's growing soft power. Per Harvard's Joseph Nye, when competing for influence "It's not whose Army wins, it's whose story wins." China sees foreign aid as an important part of the contest of stories. Nations clamoring for aid during the latter half of the 20th-century had little choice other than the U.S. led World Bank and the IMF. However, both soon demonstrated a lack of ability to reliably help other nations, sometimes causing more harm than good. Reasons included their numerous ideological 'one-size-fits-all' economic requirements that assumed recipient nations had strong domestic industries, legal systems, and administrative cadres. Despite aid recipient nations often being in recession, IMF and World Bank mandates for cutting government spending worsened the economies of many aid recipients. Directed to eliminate trade barriers, recipients likely found their domestic industries overwhelmed (African food and clothing producers), while corporations in advanced nations enjoyed a windfall. IMF and World Bank-required elimination of barriers to foreign investment often brought inflation, and forced privatization frequently brought fraud as as former state sectors were taken over by political cronies (Russia). Then there was the obvious hypocrisy of our often propping up ruthless oil and anit-Communist dictators while espousing American-style democracy, ignoring Israel;s abuse of Palestinians, and subsidizing American agriculture at the same time the World Bank and IMF prevented developing countries from doing the same. Then came our own problems - the [...] crash, 9/11, our Katrina response, wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, ballooning trade and federal deficits, realization of an inadequate and dated infrastructure, a failing education system, crippling health care and defense costs, inability to aggressively address global warming, deindustrialization, our 2007 Wall Street collapse, and quixotic quests to play the role of world's policeman (Iran, Korea). Each served to undermine America's former soft power aura of competence and success.

Halper attributes recent U.S. economic problems, as well as its ineffectual aid to others, to an inflexible economic ideology that developed in response to problems caused by powerful American labor unions of the 1970s. Faced with both rising unemployment and inflation, Milton Friedman and the 'Chicago school' sold Republicans on the assertion that government involvement didn't solve problems, rather it made them. Deregulation (transportation), reduced regulations, free trade, privatization of state-owned enterprises, and cutting taxes became de rigueur. At first, everything came up roses - American icons such as Coke, Nike, McDonald's, and then Microsoft, sprung up all over the globe, America's 20% inflation was stopped cold, and then the Russian empire collapsed in 1991. We even deluded ourselves into thinking Americans were "special people" with an assignment to evangelize others in democracy and freedom, per God. Reality, however, was that America had reached the peak of its 'soft power,' and was headed downhill.

China, meanwhile, talked little and accomplished much, thanks to its high savings rate, emphasis on and respect for education, flexible economic ideology, protected domestic markets, enormous supply of low-cost labor, and an autocratic government that permitted no 'great debates' - instead taking fast, consistent actions and learning from nearby Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea, and Japan. On the political side, rather than accept conventional wisdom that economic success required a more democratic government, and sensitive to its revolt-prone past, the PRC government instead concluded that Russia had erred in permitting democratic reforms to outrun economic progress. In addition, China also determined that Russia had suffered from an overly aggressive foreign/satellite policy, a too-large military, a lack of market mechanisms, and a failure to ensure that key industries supported national interests. Incorporating all these lessons, the PRC elected to use strong, intelligent government power to accelerate economic growth; in turn the improved economy would serve as a means of maintaining the Communist Party's power. The new economy offered considerable economic freedom, while retaining government leadership of key industries such as telecommunications, banking, metals (steel, aluminum), and transportation. Pros included fast action, and consistent direction that wasn't subject to reversal every election cycle, continual media-fed industry-led fighting over economic direction, and the ability to immediately link business decision-making with political goals (eg. banning American firms selling arms to Taiwan from selling to the mainland; sometimes slowing the use of mechanization as a means of boosting employment). Cons - local officials' corruption, very limited democracy, and incredible pollution. (China's corruption problem, however, should be evaluated in the context of American business lobbying and 'buying elections.')

Thirty years later, China has accumulated some $2.4 trillion in currency reserves (could reach $13.4 trillion by 2020), increasingly used to fund aid projects on its own and provide a path around the West. Six billion is now committed to funding a media campaign to tell China's story. Chinese 'industrial policy' decisions have also brought the economic benefits of clustering (simplifies marketing and support efforts, intensifies knowledge distribution and competition), minimized contradictions (eg. not buying G.M.'s fuel-wasting Hummer brand in an increasingly resource and pollution-conscious world), and avoided undermining key values (eg. allowing banks to promote credit cards, instead of encouraging savings). Resource-rich nations (eg. OPEC) now emulate China - using their natural resources to avoid levying taxes and the subsequent demands for democracy, while using state capitalism to develop the economy, keep the populace happy, and leverage their own foreign policy etc. goals. (The world's thirteen largest oil companies are owned and run by governments; Saudi Arabia 'invented' political use of economic resources with its 1970s Oil Embargo; Gazprom periodically threatens to freeze large areas of Europe by turning off natural gas supplies.)

The weak U.S. economy is now less able/willing to provide large foreign aid projects, and the Bank of China is 6X the size of the World Bank. Turns out, we're not missed. Halper quotes an African leader comparing the World Bank's slow (five years) contracting and often patronizing support processes, vs. China's three months and few restrictions. In turn, China has lots of new friends supporting its aims in Taiwan, Tibet, and within China itself. Ironically, while Americans have been fighting and dying in Afghanistan for nearly nine years, China is investing $3 billion to gain access to its huge copper reserves - first building roads, a $500 million power plant, a national railway, a coal mine, and eventually creating as many as 10,000 jobs for Afghans. Paradoxically, its investment is protected by American soldiers, and President Karzai is threatening to join the Taliban. Nearby, in Iran, China has $120 billion worth of oil deals - undoubtedly motivation for opposing U.S. goals there, and is busily also helping Iraq develop its oil resources.

China's recognizes that operational effectiveness in the role of offshore producer is not a long-term strategy for either maximizing profits nor full employment within China. Neither is the long-term holding of huge amounts of potentially depreciating American financial assets good for China. In response, the PRC has undertaken its own 'Buy American' campaign - acquiring American and other consumer product companies (Lenovo, Volvo, portions of the Blackstone Group and Morgan Stanley) and starting its own (egl Geely automobiles), using political and economic leverage to acquire American (and others') technological capabilities in tomorrow's industries, acquiring access to raw materials around the world, recruiting skilled science and math expatriates to return, increasing its own R&D capabilities and expenditures, and boosting education expenditures - especially at the university level. Some of these moves also serve to position it for marketing to the less developed world - the projected location of most future economic growth. China is also focusing on expanding internal demand for goods and services, thereby becoming less dependent on exports, less vulnerable to protectionism by other nations, and requiring less resources and generating less pollution/GDP growth than increasing basic industries.

Halper ends with the obligatory section on recommendations. Unfortunately, they lack any likelihood of success (eg. establishing a 'China section' within the National Security Council).

Bottom-Line: China's 'miracle growth' economy has not required emulating American democracy - in fact, China's economy has benefited from government remaining autocratic, and has added autocratic capitalism to its list of exports. Further, it's a mystery why we (or Google) care about developing democracy in China - polls show a preference for social order and economic progress over Western liberal democracy, a finding consistent with Maslow's needs hierarchy. Halper believes "China is set to have a greater impact on the world in the next two decades than any other country" - not because of its increased military spending (much lower than the U.S.) but because it has become a beacon of management/government ideas about making capitalism more effective. Halper also concludes that given China's concern with 'face' (the reason for torpedoing President Obama's request for emissions verification), and U.S. politicians' inability to get beyond media-reinforced rabble-rousing about China, there is little possibility of the PRC and the U.S. becoming a team. Meanwhile, U.S. democracy has become paralyzed, unable to overcome outdated ideological baggage on economic policy (unrestrained free trade, minimal regulation) and foreign policy (dictating and preaching, portraying differences as 'good vs. evil,' preemptive military strikes, unwavering support for Israel) to reverse our weakening economy and international standing.
 
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Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
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Wealth creates income, which is the reason for the disparity in income.

Except in the case of my former employers, they didn't give themselves a lot of income. They chose to instead use it to invest in the company, which meant hiring employees. Not growing the company and instead taking home more cash would have benefitted fewer employees and would have been less capitalistic. What they were doing was bad for their bank account, but good for the economy... which is the point of this thread.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Nope. For me, someone is typically "middle class" when they have a bachelors degree, working a desk job, 80 hours every two weeks (10-80 or 9-80), salaried with annual bonus, and are in supervisory positions or lower. Someone who is "upper middle class" is same as above, but have a graduate degree, and are in mid-manager to manager type positions. Are there exceptions to these rules? Sure.

What the fuck does education and type of work have to do with being middle class or upper middle class? I made about double in my blue collar job than I do in my current white collar job.
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
Except in the case of my former employers, they didn't give themselves a lot of income. They chose to instead use it to invest in the company, which meant hiring employees. Not growing the company and instead taking home more cash would have benefitted fewer employees and would have been less capitalistic. What they were doing was bad for their bank account, but good for the economy... which is the point of this thread.

They were theoretically investing part of their income back into their investments (their business), which is what the middle class should be doing. The whole point of my original post.
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
What the fuck does education and type of work have to do with being middle class or upper middle class? I made about double in my blue collar job than I do in my current white collar job.

ATOT mentality.

"In order to be this....you need to do this and this exactly."

"In order for a girl to be hot....she needs this to be exactly this big....and no pointy elbows."