Originally posted by: SherEPunjab
Originally posted by: AndrewR
Originally posted by: SherEPunjabWhat an absolute Idiot.
First of all, its not about being Pro-Indian, or Pro-Pakistani. What about being Pro-American?
You apparently do not know the facts, well let me spill them for you, and then you tell me that this action is not the stupidest thing you've ever heard:
a) The Taliban was created in Pakistan in 1996
b) 7 of the 11 top commanders of the Taliban were Pakistani
c) The Taliban sheltered Al Qaeda, and fought against our troops. They were funded, and supported (until after 9/11) by Pakistan. I can show you proof if you need it.
d) The Taliban has active links with other terror groups, including, but not limited to: Chechens. Some of the weapons that the taliban uses (mostly Kalishnokovs) have found there way all the way to russia.
e) AQ Khan, Pakistan's 'esteemed' and respected nuclear scientist STOLE nuclear weapons technology from the Netherlands. He transferred this technology to Libya, Iran, and North Korea. Are these countries friends of ours? No, we label them, and have, for years, labeled them as "rogue nations," yet up until very recently, Pakistan was still aiding the Iranians - and i believe the N. Koreans with this. What did Pakistan do to him? Absolutely nothing. Oh yeah, they put him under "country arrest," he can't leave one of his 3 mansions... oh nooo!!! how cruel!
f) When Pakistan tested its nuclear weapons in... 1996-97, guess who gave a great big bear hug to the Pakistani officials? Sadaam Hussein. Is he our friend? No, but he was theirs. He said, Now Muslims never need to fear, a muslim nation has the weapon
g) 9 out of 10 Pakistanis hate us. Go visit Pakistani web forums and see what they write. They blame 9/11 on the Jews, and think that America is going to swallow them tommorow. Words like Jihad, Kaffir, and martyrdom are used many times with "America" in the same sentence. Here is an example of what they are capable of doing, attacking even the CIA headquarters...
h) I know Pakistani guys myself, and they have nothing but really rude things to say about this country.
i) Those crazy madrassas that you see educating the young Muslims of that region are almost entirely run by Pakistanis and supported (financially) by arabs.
j) A number banned terrorist cells including Jaish-E-Mohammed, Laskhar-E-Toiba, and Harkat-al-Unsar (banned by our govt.) our based in Pakistan. they hold recruiting ceremonies in public. The government there simply does not crack down on them. Do you really believe that a country as large and well equipped as Pakistan couldn't find a couple of idiots riding camels across the border from Afghanistan? Please. Pakistan could have arrested osama bin laden last year if they wanted to. think about what is in there best interest, and then you'll see why they didn't. They have got hundreds of millions of dollars from this country. They WON'T allow our troops on their soil, but want our weapons. Why? Think about it, learn the facts, and then tell me what is the case. Until then, we Americans, Indians, or Zimbabweans, whatever, have every damn right to be mad. WE'RE paying for this crap. Musharraf is a MILITARY dicator that overthrew a democratically elected official. Every single time the U.S. has supported one of these, it backfired, whether it was Iraq, or Iran... whats next now, Pakistan?!
k) When the ethnic Pakistani Taliban fighters ran across the border, (or flown courtesy of Pakistan aircraft) to escape our wrath against them what did the Pakistanis do? Did they lock them up? Of course.. not.
Pakistan has shown time and again that it is nothing more than opportunist nation. the facts above can all be verified by yourself if you choose to do so, and have a couple of hours and an internet connection. When it was in there interest, they supported the horrific atrocities that the Taliban would commit. When it was in their favor to turn their backs on them, they did. That does not make an ally, and no they do not deserve ANY credit. They are part of the reason this whole sh*t began with, they are a part of the problem, not the solution. If anything, i say we use them, but *don't give them more weapons*. be cordial with them, but firm. no weapons, no money. give them false promises, get OBL, and then ditch them. they were opportunists, so we can be too.
edit: AndrewR:
we have attacked nations that have done far less damaging things than Pakistan has done. Why the double standard? Answer that question specifically please. Lets, for sake of argument say yes we need them right now. Why give this military run dicatorship MORE WEAPONS? Give them food, education clothing, I don't care. But WEAPONS?
With your nick, your leanings are obvious. Don't try to drape yourself in the American flag and deny that you lean one way when discussing the Pakistani-Indian question. Answer this one question specifically: what is your ethnicity?
As for your statement of facts, I don't deny them, except for the part about American troops on their soil -- it happened and probably still is, but it's not well-publicized (I have no specific idea on the current status of our forces in Pakistan). I do remember specific news coverage regarding American aircraft taking off out of Jalalabad back when we were crushing the Taliban. The facts you ignore are the ones regarding Pakistan's support for our actions in Afghanistan and for our actions against al'Qaida, such as the on-going engagement in Waziristan. Or, have you not turned on the television in several days and can't bother to click onto links such as
BBC,
CNN,
MSNBC, or
Le Monde? I found links to the current story on the front page of each. Remember Ramzi Yousef from the 1993 WTC bombing? Arrested in Pakistan. What about
this story, relating the arrest of 35 suspected militants with the help of US personnel who were obviously operating on Pakistani soil? Oh, yes, and let's not forget the arrest of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed last year in Pakistan -- one of the biggest fish captured or killed in the GWOT. Compare these facts and their dates of occurrence with the facts you listed -- which are the latest ones?
You also ignore the fact that U.S. forces operated against the Taliban and AQ from Pakistani territory. Without that basing and without airspace access for Navy and Air Force aircraft, the successful dethroning of the Taliban would not have occurred with as little trouble as it did. Care to explain how we could have done otherwise?
International politics are never conducted based solely on historical perspective, or Rumsfeld would still be shaking hands with Saddam, who is now our captive. The British killed thousands of Americans and are now our staunchest ally. That's an absurd comparison, but it is absurd to prove the point about international relations. Yes, we need Pakistan's support as long as there is cross-border operation from AQ and the Taliban remnants running around. I have never heard of the provinces which border Afghanistan being referred to as completely under the central Pakistani government control -- if you have other information regarding that, please do share. It's obvious that Musharraf's does not have the support of all the people in Pakistan, much like Saudi Arabia (home of bin Laden, Wahhabism, and untold numbers of other terrorists) which is also considered a US ally and has received US weaponry (and also allowed US forces to be stationed there). Since you rightly recognize that Musharraf ascended to power in a military coup, he is obviously reliant on the military for his power, which you fail to recognize or at least mention. Why do we have to sell weapons? Because it makes the Pakistani military happy, which in turn makes Musharraf feel safer. Is it distasteful? Pretty much. Is it reality? Yes.
I have not seen any specifics on what weapons the US might sell to the Pakistanis, but you might note that they already fly US-made F-16s. Just a few months ago, we turned down their request to deliver additional F-16s that Pakistan had previously contracted for but which were not delivered prior to their nuclear test. My best guess is that the US told Pakistan that they had to take firm, concrete action in the border provinces to break the stalemate with AQ and the Taliban, and that if they did, we would consider selling them some weaponry. Witness the offensive in Waziristan and then this announcement. I suspect that the amount and type of weaponry will be limited, but I have no idea. India hardly has much to worry about since they are buying everything they can from Russia and everyone else, including the recent deal for a large aircraft carrier. Also remember that the US allowed Israel to sell India the Phalcon AWACS recently and possibly the Arrow missile system as well, used for ABM defence.
It will be interesting to see what the administration does to assuage the Indians after this announcement. Cope India 2004 just finished up a couple weeks ago in Gwalior -- I wonder if there will be a Cope India 2005?
By the way, throwing names at someone does nothing but reflect on your maturity level.
I'm Indian American. And Damn proud of it. I was born and raised in this country though. By the way, my name doesn't pinpoint my ethnicity at all. Actually, a Pakistani person could have very well had this name, as 60% of Pakistanis' are ethnic Punjabi, and Sher is actually a Persian word for Lion. Panj itself is the Persian word for five, and "Ab" is the persian word for river. Regardless of my ethnicity, what does that have to do with absolutely anything if what i say is true? is the mere fact that I am of Indian heritage mean that what I said all of a sudden becomes false? If an American of Japanese descent makes the comment that, "Lexus makes some of the most reliable cars" should we tell him he's wrong to say that because his parents are from Japan? If an American tells someone that America is the only superpower, does the mere fact that an American said that make it a false statement? You're illogical.
If anything, i have a lot more insight into the situation than Americans who are not from that part of the world. As I have stated, I have Pakistani friends, and they, naturally, tell me a lot more things than they would say in front of any other American who is not from our region. Our histories are intertwined. We speak the same language, share the same culture, go to the same parties, etc. etc. etc. We have also been knowing about what has been going on in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India for a lot longer time than America's new found interest in South Asia. Even George Bush didn't know what the Taliban was a few years ago.
With respect to your disagreement with Pakistan allowing our troops on their soil, check out the latest info, yes, they have in the past, but currently they do not want to (at least as of 2 days ago) allow U.S. troops. Now, you mention the numerous "achievements" they have made in combatting the war on terrorism. You mention them catching Taliban op's, and Sheikh Khalid (who is Pakistani Punjabi by the way). I never refuted the fact that they are now publicly turning their back on these terrorists. Read my post again. I am saying that they are one of the parties responsible for creating it [islamic fundamentalism], and they are now turning their backs on this because they are nothing more than opportunists. You read too far into the lines without looking at the general picture. Who cares if they catch 35-45 or even 200 terrorists? You're missing the point.
While they are catching these, everyday in the cities of Lahore, Gujranwala, Rawalpindi, etc. they are conducting meetings to recruit more terrorists. Extremist Madrassas are still teaching their kids their is nothing but Islam. The Pakistani government is not cracking down, and its ISI, is even helping foster this hatred. I have seen the reports on BBC, CNN, etc. I am very aware of what the media is reporting is in Wazirstan. Remember, we rely on this information from statements that Pakistan makes, or from what they show us. I've seen the political stance our media has been taking the past 2 months, the sympathy stance for Musharraf. He was 'almost' killed by a grenade attack a few months ago... his life is in 'jeopardy,' X amount of pakistani troops were killed by taliban... etc. etc.. While there may be some truth to that, knowing Pakistan history of exaggerating claims, lying, etc. you have to take what they tell us with a grain of salt. Why do we need to make deals with this country to supply them weapons anyways? You never answered my question specifically why we need to do that. Couldn't we have brokered a deal of food, health, or better trade ties? Pakistan has also said that their troops never crossed the border when they were fighting in Kargil. Yet, we have shown many dead Pakistani troops, and many of the dead terrorists had Pakistan military issued weapons. Pakistan denies this, but phyiscal evidence is there.
For a number of years, Pakistan had covered up AQ Khan's theft of nuclear technology. They had covered up the fact that they were passing this on to rogue nations. Musharraf has promised free elections, but they have not happened so far (well, they did, for EVERY OTHER POST EXCEPT FOR HIS... haha.). There is nothing to trust with that country. If you have faith in them, good for you. If Bush does, bad for us. It will bite us in the a55 one day.
Don't lose sight of the fact that they created the situation that they are now trying to get out of. Dont lose sight of the fact that they are not a true ally in the sense that they are NOT truly concerned about combating terrorism -- and thats the problem. They are doing this now, but what will happen when America loses interest and then goes to another region of the world to have fun in? The media will forget, the youth of Pakistan, bitter over America's bombing and killing of their "muslim brothers" will wage Jihad against the Kaffir Americans. Simply killing terrorists, and supplying weapons to Pakistan is not going to improve the larger picture in the crackdown on terroism. I won't even say that its a good start, as while this is happening, millions of young muslims the world over, particularly in s. asia are getting more and more pissed at our country - and the west at large.
Supplying Pakistan with weapons (keep in mind they are not waging war against another country, but against renegade Taliban - how much weaponry do they really need against that enemy specifically? they are trying to get this (obviously) to try to counter India's military might -- which America does not need to involve itself in) is not going to stop terrorism,not even by the least. We need to get to the root of the problem, which so far, we have not been able to do successfully.
You seem to think that its only Indians that have this viewpoint. You are dead wrong. the Northern Alliance, and many Afghans in general HATE Pakistanis. They blame the Pakistani government for ruining their country, spreading hate, and fundamentalism there. I suggest you talk to an Afghan and ask them that. Knowing the facts, I agree with their assessment. Don't just believe what Western journalists write, our information is based on what is published, and what is given to these journalists. The northern alliance, if you recall was early on a major ally in fighting al qaeda and taliban troops. Unfortunately, Masood, the leader was killed by - what they believe, Taliban and Pakistani's intelligence agency. Thats right. Pakistan had a lot to lose if Masood took control, which we americans wanted. There is just one example of the conflict of interest. Even Americans (of European descent if that makes you feel better AndrewR) analysts/journalists/experts on the subject know this. I'm sure they are just as shocked by this news as I am. The media reports are made for the masses. The problem is, this is a complex situation, and one that a few news pieces won't be suffice to get an accurate picture of. You may be very well read up on the subject with what has been provided to you, and I won't knock you on that, but keep in mind it is what has been provided to you, and to the masses of this country (and the west). Pakistan's Western neighbor, and Eastern neighbor can tell you a lot more from experience than some reporter who catches a glimpse of what is occuring at any one given moment.
"As for the Pakistan connection, Masood's European visit garnered several high-level international condemnations of Pakistan for their support of the Taliban. Masood accused Pakistan of providing not only assistance, but also soldiers. "Without Pakistan's support, the Taliban's military campaign would not even last a year," Masood told Deutsche Presse Agentur.
Pakistan, one of only three countries to recognise the Taliban, has denied the charges but admits members of certain Pakistani religious groups may have joined Taliban ranks. " source:
http://www.peak.sfu.ca/the-peak/2001-3/issue5/ne-masood.html
Lets look at the following, now, the U.S. Department of States "Asia Overview" of 2000, just before 9/11:
"Pakistan
Pakistan's military government, headed by Gen. Pervez Musharraf,
continued previous Pakistani Government support of the Kashmir insurgency, and Kashmiri militant groups continued to operate in Pakistan, raising funds and recruiting new cadre. Several of these groups were responsible for attacks against civilians in Indian-held Kashmir, and the largest of the groups, the Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, claimed responsibility for a suicide car-bomb attack against an Indian garrison in Srinagar in April. Link of dead Islamic terrorists. *Not for the faint of heart*
In addition, the Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM), a designated Foreign Terrorist Organization, continues to be active in Pakistan
without discouragement by the Government of Pakistan. Members of the group were associated with the hijacking in December 1999 of an Air India flight that resulted in the release from an Indian jail of former HUM leader Maulana Masood Azhar. Azhar since has founded his own Kashmiri militant group, Jaish-e-Mohammed, and publicly has threatened the United States.
The United States remains concerned about reports of continued Pakistani support for the Taliban's military operations in Afghanistan. Credible reporting indicates that Pakistan is providing the Taliban with materiel, fuel, funding, technical assistance, and military advisers. Pakistan has not prevented large numbers of Pakistani nationals from moving into Afghanistan to fight for the Taliban. Islamabad also failed to take effective steps to curb the activities of certain madrassas, or religious schools, that serve as recruiting grounds for terrorism. Pakistan publicly and privately said it intends to comply fully with UNSCR 1333, which imposes an arms embargo on the Taliban.
The attack on the USS Cole in Yemen in October prompted fears of US retaliatory strikes against Bin Ladin's organization and targets in Afghanistan if the investigation pointed in that direction.
Pakistani religious party leaders and militant groups threatened US citizens and facilities if such an action were to occur, much as they did after the US attacks on training camps in Afghanistan in August 1998 and following the US diplomatic intervention in the Kargil conflict between Pakistan and India in 1999. The Government of Pakistan generally has cooperated with US requests to enhance security for US facilities and personnel. " source:
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/2432.htm
First the create the problem, then, when the U.S. comes, they turn their back on it. When the U.S. leaves, they create a new problem, when the U.S. comes, they turn their back on it. Do you see a pattern emerging here? THESE ARE NOT ALLIES. These are Opportunists. Giving them Weapons is no solution at all. It is not the right thing to do. Period.
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